first week report

[Ntpadude]

I can always hope she'll approve later on!

(she says she likes me fine the way I am and that she wasn't attracted to huge bulky guys. I assured her that I wasn't going to look like Jay Cutler or anyone.. I think those pros hurt bodybuilding's image, personally.)

Mine said the same exact shit. Oh you are so cute the way you are, she isnt attracted to big guys with big muscle....

Let me tell you, I never got any [sex], except once a month before this cycle... after I gained the first 7 lbs, man she changed and I was getting blow jobs or a piece of A-- every day, sometimes she wanted both in the same day and in spite of the increased libido she had me on the run begging for mercy because I couldnt keep producing so much cum for the every day on slaught. All the time feeling up my arms and chest every time she got near me. Now tell me these women arent just saying you are cute the way you are and not being attracted to more muscular guys. Dont kid yourself when you start bulking up, they really fall in love all over again with you or else its the increase phermones from the steroids you are producing, maybe it triggers the gals to go in heat.

[rainbowsheep]

I read on another thread you wrote that you train everyday 20mins. a session. Is this true? do you still train for that short period of time while you are on AS? If it is.. dont expect much.

4-5 days for 20-30 minutes (not including warmup).

Yes, I'm still doing that. I'm up to 220 now. Some water, some muscle.

Way I see it, I keep protein synthesis rates high constantly (due to the frequent working out), AAS increases the rate of protein synthesis, it's all good. I avoid neural fatigue by rarely going to failure.

[rainbowsheep]

Mine said the same exact shit. Oh you are so cute the way you are, she isnt attracted to big guys with big muscle....

Let me tell you, I never got any [sex], except once a month before this cycle... after I gained the first 7 lbs, man she changed and I was getting blow jobs or a piece of A-- every day, sometimes she wanted both in the same day and in spite of the increased libido she had me on the run begging for mercy because I couldnt keep producing so much cum for the every day on slaught. All the time feeling up my arms and chest every time she got near me. Now tell me these women arent just saying you are cute the way you are and not being attracted to more muscular guys. Dont kid yourself when you start bulking up, they really fall in love all over again with you or else its the increase phermones from the steroids you are producing, maybe it triggers the gals to go in heat.

I can always hope... we have had sex more frequently in the past couple days... coincidence I think not!

[Ntpadude]

It's not that I'm not listening to anyone. I just asked some questions about at what level testosterone had to be in order to start seeing effects, and why I'm 11 pounds heavier in 13 days.

Well I screwed around with my weight by starting anadrol on week #2.5... no one will argue the weight gaining ability of this stuff... but I gained up a real fast 15 lbs in my first 2 weeks of test enanthate and deca , but its easy to say if there were no cycle at all, and because of my diet, my body really wanted 10 more lbs on me bad and it would have gained fast with the increased intake of calaries that did occur. Then the anadrol - holy cow, 15 more lbs in 10 days but it was edema up the ass, got soft and puffy from water gain half way up my spine, both feel swolen enough to hide ankle bone, fat face, then I stopped the anadrols and 12 lbs melted off me like in 7 days... so here I am since I stablized after looseing the anadrol enhanced weight I am just stable as can be, not much movement on the scale but I am looking in the mirror and it looks like whatever was left of water gain has been trading off for muscle gain. I AM in the kick in period and the definition of my muscles is in an on going improvement.

[Ntpadude]

I thought the reason for not taking in fats during the post-workout meal that it would slow absorbtion of the sugars and protein and hinder the "shuttling" of the nutrients to the muscles.

Fats don't need insulin to be stored, you know (thanks to good old ASP)... and only miniscule amounts of insulin are needed to activate lipogenesis.

Other than the post-workout period, what other timing issues exist?

No sugar can actually HELP transport protein and creatine to the muscle and assist in the absorbtion.

[rainbowsheep]

No sugar can actually HELP transport protein and creatine to the muscle and assist in the absorbtion.

I could've sworn that insulin was a transport agent, and that sugar (I don't necessarily mean table sugar here!) does promote insulin release.

How can not eating sugars help?

[rainbowsheep]

Well I screwed around with my weight by starting anadrol on week #2.5... no one will argue the weight gaining ability of this stuff... but I gained up a real fast 15 lbs in my first 2 weeks of test enanthate and deca, but its easy to say if there were no cycle at all, and because of my diet, my body really wanted 10 more lbs on me bad and it would have gained fast with the increased intake of calaries that did occur. Then the anadrol - holy cow, 15 more lbs in 10 days but it was edema up the ass, got soft and puffy from water gain half way up my spine, both feel swolen enough to hide ankle bone, fat face, then I stopped the anadrols and 12 lbs melted off me like in 7 days... so here I am since I stablized after looseing the anadrol enhanced weight I am just stable as can be, not much movement on the scale but I am looking in the mirror and it looks like whatever was left of water gain has been trading off for muscle gain. I AM in the kick in period and the definition of my muscles is in an on going improvement.

Yikes... what week are you in now? What (dosages) are you taking?

I don't plan on taking anadrol now.

[Ntpadude]

Yikes... what week are you in now? What (dosages) are you taking?

I don't plan on taking anadrol now.

Well I was up as much as 32 lbs higher then starting weight because of the anadrol, the extra anadrol weight came off and I am still holding at about a 20 to 22 lbs gain (give and take 3 lbs for food in intestines not yet shit out). I am still heavier but as I move on from week 7, lookin like end result will be about 20-25 lbs gain... next 3 weeks are supposed to be the most fruitful. I AM thinking about extending to 13 weeks but this is mostly because I really dont want to crash to zero testosterone levels right as we go into Christmas. If a small amount of clinical depression is expected with going into PCT, well I dont want to ruin Christmas by being depressed or else enhancing post holiday blues.... I'd rather extend cycle, I have the roids and anti-e's on hand as I am half way stocked for next cycle so........

Cycle for me is:
week 1-5 450 test enanthate (SL) & 250 Deca (SL)
week 6-13 550 test enanthate (SL & RT)
week 6-10 250 deca (SL)
week 2-3 100 mg anadrols (planned to run 4 weeks but stopped after 1 because of excessive side effects)

[rainbowsheep]

Not that I'm a AAS expert by any means, but it would make sense to extend the cycle through Christmas and New Years, as you'll probably be eating a lot during that period (good old family cooking). Staying on during that period would probably maximize the muscle gain and minimize the fat gain from the turkey dinners and whatnot.

I'm hoping to gain 20-25 pounds of lean mass myself as well. But apparently my training methodology is all wrong.

[Ntpadude]

Not that I'm a AAS expert by any means, but it would make sense to extend the cycle through Christmas and New Years, as you'll probably be eating a lot during that period (good old family cooking). Staying on during that period would probably maximize the muscle gain and minimize the fat gain from the turkey dinners and whatnot.

I'm hoping to gain 20-25 pounds of lean mass myself as well. But apparently my training methodology is all wrong.

To be honest, the only people I heard being recommended to go on every day workouts are those either trying to loose lots of weight or those on cutting cycles... also take in consideration a walk or jog around the neighborhood counts as a workout day too as cardio. For bulking: When not on steroids , limit workout to about 1 hour because at about 1 hour 15 minute you start getting cortisol activity. When on steroids you can extend to longer 2 hour workouts because cortisol is completely inhibited by high testosterone levels. 2 or 3 days off in between is believed to maximize bulking and muscle growth, you can actually come back and hit a muscle before its had a chance to heal from last workout and you actually reverse growth.

There are guys that do cement work, not all of them are big. There are plenty of 165 lbs cement workers stronger then some 225 lbs guys but their muscle size is small because they are trained for endurance, rather then what we are after when doing shorter workouts with extended heal and recovery times. Remember if you want to do it right and get the maximum gains with steroids, quit making up your own rules and follow the advice of these veterans that had done many cycles and know what works and what doesnt.

[Nailer]

4-5 days for 20-30 minutes (not including warmup).

Yes, I'm still doing that. I'm up to 220 now. Some water, some muscle.

Way I see it, I keep protein synthesis rates high constantly (due to the frequent working out), AAS increases the rate of protein synthesis, it's all good. I avoid neural fatigue by rarely going to failure.

dont expect too much.

[markas214]

Not that I'm a AAS expert by any means, but it would make sense to extend the cycle through Christmas and New Years, as you'll probably be eating a lot during that period (good old family cooking). Staying on during that period would probably maximize the muscle gain and minimize the fat gain from the turkey dinners and whatnot.

I'm hoping to gain 20-25 pounds of lean mass myself as well. But apparently my training methodology is all wrong.

There is no way you will gain 25 lbs of lean muscle in a 10 week cycle. That would average out to 100 lbs a year. I would bet all the weight you've put on in the first 10 days is water and bodyfat. Look at the pros who do AAS doses and cycles that are way beyond the average. They can put on around 10 lbs of lean mass a year tops. Not to discourage you but you've got to be realistic with your goals. It takes years of training, eating and even gear to reach massive proportions. Steroids aren't magic muscle beans that will transform you into Arnold in 10 weeks.

[rainbowsheep]

There is no way you will gain 25 lbs of lean muscle in a 10 week cycle. That would average out to 100 lbs a year. I would bet all the weight you've put on in the first 10 days is water and bodyfat. Look at the pros who do AAS doses and cycles that are way beyond the average. They can put on around 10 lbs of lean mass a year tops. Not to discourage you but you've got to be realistic with your goals. It takes years of training, eating and even gear to reach massive proportions. Steroids aren't magic muscle beans that will transform you into Arnold in 10 weeks.

Actually, that would "average out" to 125 pounds a year. Of course I can't gain 125 pounds in a year. 25 pounds in ten weeks is completely different.

That's like saying that no one can run a sub 4 minute mile, because you can't hold that pace for a marathon.

Pros are already pushing the limits of their body. I am not. Two different things.

[rainbowsheep]

dont expect too much.

Can you explain to me why I can't expect too much?

Like, using reasoning? References to studies? Biochem explanation?

[OTC]

It seems to me rainbow that your trying to bust everyones balls that is giving you advice. If you want facts go out and find it, this is a discussion forum, not a doctors office, and these are peoples opinions, take them for that. Personally I can't see how a 20 minute training session could achieve maximum muscle failure with multiple exersizes, but you never posted your workout plan, so all we can do is speculate.
-OTC

[Ntpadude]

It seems to me rainbow that your trying to bust everyones balls that is giving you advice. If you want facts go out and find it, this is a discussion forum, not a doctors office, and these are peoples opinions, take them for that. Personally I can't see how a 20 minute training session could achieve maximum muscle failure with multiple exersizes, but you never posted your workout plan, so all we can do is speculate.
-OTC

Exactly... the everyday workout sounds like he is training for endurance like a cement worker or a marathon runner. These guys might be strong, maybe stronger then those with more mass and leaner but if you are after size and bigger muscles then rainbow really needs to rethink a lot of things he is doing and start following advice that people are giving, or else what will happen is, he gains up what he has gained, then stall out and his steroid cycle only net total of 10 lbs or so. 20 minutes I agree, thats just starting to warm up muscles, not even enough to get a pump on the muscles or one that last all that long, sounds a lot like under-training for a steroid cycle.

[BUYLONGTERM]

20 minutes? I'm still warming up. I cannot get out of a gym in under an hour.

[rainbowsheep]

20 minutes? I'm still warming up. I cannot get out of a gym in under an hour.

Again, I'm not including warmup time in that twenty to thirty minute period.

[rainbowsheep]

It seems to me rainbow that your trying to bust everyones balls that is giving you advice. If you want facts go out and find it, this is a discussion forum, not a doctors office, and these are peoples opinions, take them for that. Personally I can't see how a 20 minute training session could achieve maximum muscle failure with multiple exersizes, but you never posted your workout plan, so all we can do is speculate.
-OTC

All I'm asking is that people back up their opinions with some reasoning.

I'd agree with you, a twenty minute training session (I'm not including warmup time there) is hard to reach 'maximum muscle failure'. Why is that important?

All I'm doing is asking questions here. I'm not out to bust balls or anything, just out to find knowledge.

[Ntpadude]

All I'm asking is that people back up their opinions with some reasoning.

I'd agree with you, a twenty minute training session (I'm not including warmup time there) is hard to reach 'maximum muscle failure'. Why is that important?

All I'm doing is asking questions here. I'm not out to bust balls or anything, just out to find knowledge.

Thats because that's what it takes to make muscles grow while on steroids , you have to lift harder, more weight, more reps/sets, or else you will be like these guys with no results wondering if they havent just been shooting sterile water or oil all these weeks. I know there is university study that demanded participants not workout while on testosterone enanthate and they gained muscle but it wasnt like more then 8-10 lbs, some participants got nothing or just 5 lbs , almost none of them got anything to keep after coming off the steroids as, if you dont "earn" the weight while on steroids, you'll loose it when you come off... if you earn the weight, you might keep some. Its also not unusual for someone who gained 20-25 lbs to loose 7-8 of it when they come off so they only really got to keep 12 to 17 lbs of it. This is probably what these vets are refering to about gaining 10 lbs of real muscle in a cycle. All the water gain will come off and generally, the more you gain on a cycle, the more you will loose when you come off so make sure you have all of this in mind and make the adjustments now while its not too late in your cycle before you come back crying at the end that you lost everything you gained.

[rainbowsheep]

Thats because that's what it takes to make muscles grow while on steroids, you have to lift harder, more weight, more reps/sets, or else you will be like these guys with no results wondering if they havent just been shooting sterile water or oil all these weeks. I know there is university study that demanded participants not workout while on testosterone enanthate and they gained muscle but it wasnt like more then 8-10 lbs, some participants got nothing or just 5 lbs , almost none of them got anything to keep after coming off the steroids as, if you dont "earn" the weight while on steroids, you'll loose it when you come off... if you earn the weight, you might keep some. Its also not unusual for someone who gained 20-25 lbs to loose 7-8 of it when they come off so they only really got to keep 12 to 17 lbs of it. This is probably what these vets are refering to about gaining 10 lbs of real muscle in a cycle. All the water gain will come off and generally, the more you gain on a cycle, the more you will loose when you come off so make sure you have all of this in mind and make the adjustments now while its not too late in your cycle before you come back crying at the end that you lost everything you gained.

I'd agree, you have to lift more (either more often, more weight, or both) in order to grow and get stronger.

That didn't answer my question about your statement about "maximum muscle failure".

[Ntpadude]

I'd agree, you have to lift more (either more often, more weight, or both) in order to grow and get stronger.

That didn't answer my question about your statement about "maximum muscle failure".

Well muscle failure to me is, you've done 4-5 or 6 sets, in the last 2 sets or so, you have lifted until you cannot lift even one more rep. Thats all that is needed. You want to feel some muscle soreness the next morning or else you just have not done the workout that is needed to kick in the anabolic effects of steroids . If you are not sore on every muscle worked out the day before, then you need to increase your exercising, weights, reps, sets or for me it was all of the above because your strength, ability, etc increases a lot, specially from week #3 thru #5. You know on week #6 you are still getting testosterone releases from the first injection of test en so this is why the kick in becomes so great after about 4 weeks, its because all those multiple depositions of testosterone are all working together to raise your blood levels of testosterone .

Mind you, you dont need to be walking like a cripple the next day, dont need to be all THAT sore, but you should definately still feel some after workout soreness the next morning. Take 2 days so heal the damage and then workout again... by the 5th week you should be like hardly even recognizing yourself in the mirror because muscles are buldging out all over and more definitive V shape to your abs/chest area. Your lats in your back, arms, shoulders and pecs including some traps, should all be growing quick and easily with the proper diet, workout and steroids .

[rainbowsheep]

Well muscle failure to me is, you've done 4-5 or 6 sets, in the last 2 sets or so, you have lifted until you cannot lift even one more rep. Thats all that is needed. You want to feel some muscle soreness the next morning or else you just have not done the workout that is needed to kick in the anabolic effects of steroids . If you are not sore on every muscle worked out the day before, then you need to increase your exercising, weights, reps, sets or for me it was all of the above because your strength, ability, etc increases a lot, specially from week #3 thru #5. You know on week #6 you are still getting testosterone releases from the first injection of test en so this is why the kick in becomes so great after about 4 weeks, its because all those multiple depositions of testosterone are all working together to raise your blood levels of testosterone .

Mind you, you dont need to be walking like a cripple the next day, dont need to be all THAT sore, but you should definately still feel some after workout soreness the next morning. Take 2 days so heal the damage and then workout again... by the 5th week you should be like hardly even recognizing yourself in the mirror because muscles are buldging out all over and more definitive V shape to your abs/chest area. Your lats in your back, arms, shoulders and pecs including some traps, should all be growing quick and easily with the proper diet, workout and steroids.

Interesting.

However, I'm failing to understand how DOMS would be a prerequisite (or even help) hypertrophy (or strength gains, for that matter).

Could you fill me in on the connection between DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) and hypertrophy?

[Ntpadude]

Interesting.

However, I'm failing to understand how DOMS would be a prerequisite (or even help) hypertrophy (or strength gains, for that matter).

Could you fill me in on the connection between DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) and hypertrophy?

Its not the DOMS that causes growth, its the workout that causes DOMS that tells your muscles they are not adequate for teh job you need them to do so then they will grow. DOMS just tell you you worked out enough to signal the muscles they need to grow. Not only that but everyone is sure to loose weight after ending the steroid cycle so you do need to overgrow in order to keep enough to make the whole thing worthwhile.

Its generally accepted fact that you have to slightly injur your muscles in order for them to adjust, your body and muscles want to grow and adjust in a way to be adequate for the task next time and avoid injury... its really trickery because cement workers and ditch diggers work out much harder then a guy in the gym, but the guy in the gym gets bigger then the cement worker. Its because we humans have studied what works and what doesnt as far as getting bigger and more attractive for years and this is just how it is, I am not a scientist or know the exact reasons why on a scientific level.

I hate to say it but the internet is a wonderful resource with lots of information about body building and the scientific reasons for this and that. I suggest some yahoo searches for BODY BUILDING and do some homework. I seems remarkable to me you figured out how to get steroids and give yourself an injection and yet you are apparently clueless when it comes to bodybuilding 101. This stuff is in all the library books, internet, they teach you this when hiring a personal trainer or getting help at a gym, its like "common knowledge". I makes me wonder if you have enough before cycle training and not setting yourself for herniated muscles and other injuries for not being well enough prepared for a cycle.

[rainbowsheep]

Hm. I have a study that shows that the correlation between muscle damage and DOMS is extremely weak at best.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/ope...ue=6&spage=337

It concludes...

Because of generally poor correlations between DOMS and other indicators, we conclude that use of DOMS is a poor reflector of eccentric exercise-induced muscle damage and inflammation, and changes in indirect markers of muscle damage and inflammation are not necessarily accompanied with DOMS.

Just some food for thought.

[Ntpadude]

Hm. I have a study that shows that the correlation between muscle damage and DOMS is extremely weak at best.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/ope...ue=6&spage=337

It concludes...

Because of generally poor correlations between DOMS and other indicators, we conclude that use of DOMS is a poor reflector of eccentric exercise-induced muscle damage and inflammation, and changes in indirect markers of muscle damage and inflammation are not necessarily accompanied with DOMS.

Just some food for thought.

I was expecting this come back. I donno based on my own experience, no doms = no growth, no change, both on or off cycle. The harder the workout, the more sore, the bigger the growth. No convincing me otherwise. BTW, DOMS I think is something more then I have been indicating, while you feel somewhat sore the next morning, its a good kind of feeling more then soreness, I think real actual DOMS is more like growing pains we had as a kid, more of cramp style pains but this can be fixed quickly with potassium suppliments. Also that good kind of soreness of sorts I feel in the morning actually goes completely away by the time I am up and adam. Thats why I said, you dont have to feel or walk like a cripple the next morning, thats excessive damage and injury from overtraining. I am not suggesting overtraining. For one I actually dont think I have overtrained in over 10 years!! Never had body builder colds or flues from glutimine deficiency, etc.

Also I used to do cement work when in 20's, thats one reason for being slim. The cement work would undo what I tried to get in gym because 8 hour days of hard work, get cortisol going that sets limits on muscle size. Now I have an office job I can control the cortisol more with gym only workouts.

[Nailer]

Can you explain to me why I can't expect too much?

Like, using reasoning? References to studies? Biochem explanation?

I explained this on your other post... Listen I have gave you advice over ten times, each time I have you either ignored it or went against it. Do what you want, you have heard all of our opinions/advice. Keep working out for 20 mins a day while on AS. That what you want to hear? Why are you even on this board if you dont need advice/help? to give it?.. Whatever you choose to do I wish you the best of luck.. you're going to need it.

[rainbowsheep]

I explained this on your other post... Listen I have gave you advice over ten times, each time I have you either ignored it or went against it. Do what you want, you have heard all of our opinions/advice. Keep working out for 20 mins a day while on AS. That what you want to hear? Why are you even on this board if you dont need advice/help? to give it?.. Whatever you choose to do I wish you the best of luck.. you're going to need it.

All I'm doing is asking QUESTIONS. I'm not ignoring anything. I'm asking QUESTIONS. To gain knowledge. If someone tells me that I should workout this way because that's the way they do it, and the reason why they do it that way is because someone told someone who told someone who told them to do it that way, I'm going to ask for the reasoning behind it.

If it bothers you that you don't know the answers to the questions I'm asking, that's too bad.

[Nailer]

All I'm doing is asking QUESTIONS. I'm not ignoring anything. I'm asking QUESTIONS. To gain knowledge. If someone tells me that I should workout this way because that's the way they do it, and the reason why they do it that way is because someone told someone who told someone who told them to do it that way, I'm going to ask for the reasoning behind it.

If it bothers you that you don't know the answers to the questions I'm asking, that's too bad.

Search for your other pointless 20 min work out thread I answered it there. Until then, keep doing your "Fitness Made Simple With John Basedow" work out.

[rainbowsheep]

I searched all your recent posts and didn't find any answers. I'm probably just too dense, sorry.

[rainbowsheep]

rainbow here it comes.....you are seriously an idiot, why dont you hire a good personal trainer at golds or world gym, and get serious. man you are wasting everyones time by arguing , its obvious you shouldnt be on a cycle because you dont even know how to train right, so there stop acting like an idot

Man, if I'm a personal trainer and I am told to go find another personal trainer, I must be a really bad personal trainer. That sucks.

Look, all I'm doing is asking questions. You guys don't seem to want to answer them and instead make personal attacks on me.

[rainbowsheep]

hahaha...where do you work 24 hour fitness hahahahah

Oh stop it. You are hurting my feelings.

[longhornDr]

I thought the reason for not taking in fats during the post-workout meal that it would slow absorbtion of the sugars and protein and hinder the "shuttling" of the nutrients to the muscles.

Fats don't need insulin to be stored, you know (thanks to good old ASP)... and only miniscule amounts of insulin are needed to activate lipogenesis.

You don't want fats in your postworkout meal beacause, like mudman said, they would all be stored and you would just be making yourself fat with no benefit....it has nothing to do with absorption....to slow absorption you would need a massive amount of fat, and if you are at all serious about bodybuilding that shouldn't be an issue in your diet.

Lipogenesis is far more complicated that just being activated by "miniscule amounts of insulin. The ratios of hormones are what is important, not the actual values.

[BUYLONGTERM]

Bro, Its OK to ask questions, but when these guys keep giving you advice, you keep trying to prove them wrong?

[Ntpadude]

Man, if I'm a personal trainer and I am told to go find another personal trainer, I must be a really bad personal trainer. That sucks.

Look, all I'm doing is asking questions. You guys don't seem to want to answer them and instead make personal attacks on me.

I propose you give us YOUR reasons why, etc. Instead you come off like you are just out to set someone up to give an answer and then all you want to do is spray urine all over it.

The fact is, most people use steroids because it dramatically improves your recovery and recovery time, it also inhibits cortisol in a big way SO it allows you to achieve better gains by having longer more intense workouts. Its actually more of the cortisol suppression and longer more intense workouts that cause the growth more then direct action of steroids on the muscles. This is why some "no or poor workout" steroid users dont see much gain and wonder if they got bunk steroids.

On the DOMS issue, you actually can workout for 2 hours and not get DOMS while on steroids... try it, you'll be suprised! It works!

[rainbowsheep]

I propose you give us YOUR reasons why, etc. Instead you come off like you are just out to set someone up to give an answer and then all you want to do is spray urine all over it.

The fact is, most people use steroids because it dramatically improves your recovery and recovery time, it also inhibits cortisol in a big way SO it allows you to achieve better gains by having longer more intense workouts. Its actually more of the cortisol suppression and longer more intense workouts that cause the growth more then direct action of steroids on the muscles. This is why some "no or poor workout" steroid users dont see much gain and wonder if they got bunk steroids.

On the DOMS issue, you actually can workout for 2 hours and not get DOMS while on steroids... try it, you'll be suprised! It works!

Hm, good point. Like I said, I'm used to natural lifting physiology. Not assisted physiology. You can bend a lot of rules while on AAS.

[markas214]

Bro, Its OK to ask questions, but when these guys keep giving you advice, you keep trying to prove them wrong?

I was thinking the same thing blt. It seems rainbow is seeking a debate rather than advice and posting his way to vet status via this one thread. Rainbow I apreciate you correcting my math. I had originall written 20 lbs and forgot to change the percentage. I am simply stating that 25 lbs of "lean" mass in ten weeks is impossible for 99.9% of us. Maybe you're the one in 10,000 that can. Oh, I mean 1 in a thousand.

[rainbowsheep]

I was thinking the same thing blt. It seems rainbow is seeking a debate rather than advice and posting his way to vet status via this one thread. Rainbow I apreciate you correcting my math. I had originall written 20 lbs and forgot to change the percentage. I am simply stating that 25 lbs of "lean" mass in ten weeks is impossible for 99.9% of us. Maybe you're the one in 10,000 that can. Oh, I mean 1 in a thousand.

Even on a first cycle?

[markas214]

Even on a first cycle?

First is usually the best. It's possible if you eat, train and sleep right for some to get that much maybe a bit more but few newbies have that kind of self control and knowledge. Of course genetics plays a big part in how much muscle you are able to obtain on gear or off. Good luck to you. Make sure you have everything planned out and stick to your plan unless. If the plan is not getting you what you want be flexable and make the appropriate changes in your diet and training.