2nd Cycle (critique please)

**Paranoid** · 12-09-2003, 04:20 AM

Stats: 26, 6' 225lb, around 12-14% BF
Goal: Cutting, with some initial mass gains

Some of you already helped me through PM and I thanks you, but I want the board's general opinion. I am a firm believer to only use as much as is necessary and not to go overboard.

Week 1-4 25mg/day D-Bol (either Russian Akrihin, or Naposim?)
Week 1-11 400mg/week Test Enanthate (ICN Galenika)
Week 1-10 400mg EQ (QFS UG Lab)
Week 6-13 Clen and ECA (2 weeks on 2 weeks off)
Week 2-17 Nolva (20mg a day)
Week14-17 Clomid (100mg 1st 2 weeks, 50mg another 2 weeks)
Week 3-10 H.C.G (500 i.u every Sat and Sun)

Also use Milk Thistle (while on D-bol), Nizoral 2% and Saw Palmetto

Firstly you probobly think how the hell is he going to get 400mg a week with ICN's (250mg/cc). I will use 1.5 amps (375mg), but they are all overdosed between 1.1-1.2cc, so I figure to at least round it up to 400mg. As for the Nolva, I know that I am predisposed to aromatization so I'm not taking any risks, I also use Nolva along with Clomid PCT. Was going to also run Winny 7-12 but heard of too many sides.

Questions: 1. Originally I was going to use Test at 800mg to frontload, but thought that D-bol would be a better kick start. Do you think I should include D-bol in this cycle? Last cycle of Test and Deca at 400mg each took 5 weeks to start feeling effects (they were ICN and Organon yellow tops - human grade)

Question: 2 Is it a good idea to bulk week 1-6 and the reduce calories and cut week 6-13? Best of both worlds??

***asymmetrical1*** · 12-09-2003, 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by Paranoid

Stats: 26, 6' 225lb, around 12-14% BF
Goal: Cutting, with some initial mass gains

Some of you already helped me through PM and I thanks you, but I want the board's general opinion. I am a firm believer to only use as much as is necessary and not to go overboard.

Week 1-4 25mg/day D-Bol (either Russian Akrihin, or Naposim?)
Week 1-11 400mg/week Test Enanthate (ICN Galenika)
Week 1-10 400mg EQ (QFS UG Lab)
Week 6-13 Clen and ECA (2 weeks on 2 weeks off)
Week 2-17 Nolva (20mg a day)
Week14-17 Clomid (100mg 1st 2 weeks, 50mg another 2 weeks)
Week 3-10 H.C.G (500 i.u every Sat and Sun)

Also use Milk Thistle (while on D-bol), Nizoral 2% and Saw Palmetto

Firstly you probobly think how the hell is he going to get 400mg a week with ICN's (250mg/cc). I will use 1.5 amps (375mg), but they are all overdosed between 1.1-1.2cc, so I figure to at least round it up to 400mg. As for the Nolva, I know that I am predisposed to aromatization so I'm not taking any risks, I also use Nolva along with Clomid PCT. Was going to also run Winny 7-12 but heard of too many sides.

Questions: 1. Originally I was going to use Test at 800mg to frontload, but thought that D-bol would be a better kick start. Do you think I should include D-bol in this cycle? Last cycle of Test and Deca at 400mg each took 5 weeks to start feeling effects (they were ICN and Organon yellow tops - human grade)

Question: 2 Is it a good idea to bulk week 1-6 and the reduce calories and cut week 6-13? Best of both worlds??

Looks good bro....imo i would bump dbol up to atleast 35mg/ed....bump the test to 500mg/week.....get some l-dex and run .25 ml/ed and 10mg nolv/ed....will cut out your bloat......
as for the cals i always intake the most clean cals i can whether cut or bulk...
as for the dbols, get the russians if you can...can't go wrong with those

**Animal Cracker** · 12-09-2003, 05:03 AM

I agree with Asymetrical on the Dbols and Test...up the dose 35mgs per day and 500mgs week on the Test.

**SYN** · 12-09-2003, 05:49 AM

Agreed, 35 to 45mg ED of the Dbol seems to yeild good results.
Looks good.

***Pheedno*** · 12-09-2003, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by asymmetrical1

Looks good bro....imo i would bump dbol up to atleast 35mg/ed....bump the test to 500mg/week.....get some l-dex and run .25 ml/ed and 10mg nolv/ed....will cut out your bloat......
as for the cals i always intake the most clean cals i can whether cut or bulk...
as for the dbols, get the russians if you can...can't go wrong with those

ditto

**bodgit** · 12-09-2003, 09:03 AM

I'd stop the Nolva the day before you start the Clomid. The half life of Test En is around 10.5 days so you only need cover that with Nolva for 2 weeks after the last shot wheras there you're overlapping it with the Clomid and running for 6 weeks after the last shot. It just isn't necessary.
Also with the Clomid, I'd use 300mg on the first day then as you are doing there. Personally I think 2 weeks of Clomid is enough but each to their own I suppose.
And I agree with everyone re higher DBol doses.

**TheMudMan** · 12-09-2003, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by bodgit

I'd stop the Nolva the day before you start the Clomid. The half life of Test En is around 10.5 days so you only need cover that with Nolva for 2 weeks after the last shot wheras there you're overlapping it with the Clomid and running for 6 weeks after the last shot. It just isn't necessary.
Also with the Clomid, I'd use 300mg on the first day then as you are doing there. Personally I think 2 weeks of Clomid is enough but each to their own I suppose.
And I agree with everyone re higher DBol doses.

Why do you say nolva isn't necessary?.............. Nolva durring PCT will keep estrogen levels from rebounding.... if there is a uptake in estrogen in his system durring PCT it will make for a harder recovery and he could see all the estrogen sides we try not to get durring our cycles.

Also I would run PCT minimum of 3 weeks on his cycle to recover HPTA
Day 1 300mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva
Day 2 - 21 100mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva
Day 22 - 28 20mg Nolva

***Pheedno*** · 12-09-2003, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by bodgit

I'd stop the Nolva the day before you start the Clomid. The half life of Test En is around 10.5 days so you only need cover that with Nolva for 2 weeks after the last shot wheras there you're overlapping it with the Clomid and running for 6 weeks after the last shot. It just isn't necessary.
Also with the Clomid, I'd use 300mg on the first day then as you are doing there. Personally I think 2 weeks of Clomid is enough but each to their own I suppose.
And I agree with everyone re higher DBol doses.

Nolva is used alongside clomid for recovery purposes bro. It's a SERM, just as clomid is, and aids in upstarting HPTA by mimicking estrogen, thus signaling the body to start test production to compensate the estrogen increase.

And from my own blood work, clomid should be ran 4wks. I don't use the 300 front load, but run 100mg for 28 days along with 20mg of Nolva

**bodgit** · 12-09-2003, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by TheMudMan

Why do you say nolva isn't necessary?.............. Nolva durring PCT will keep estrogen levels from rebounding.... if there is a uptake in estrogen in his system durring PCT it will make for a harder recovery and he could see all the estrogen sides we try not to get durring our cycles.

Also I would run PCT minimum of 3 weeks on his cycle to recover HPTA
Day 1 300mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva
Day 2 - 21 100mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva
Day 22 - 28 20mg Nolva

Because he's already running the Clomid as part of his PCT by this point. If Clomid is used as part of PCT there is no need for Nolva.

Nolva is not nearly as effective as Clomid with regard to reversing inhibition. It is best used as an anti-gyno during the cycle, and in the case of the Test for two weeks after the last shot. There isn't anything to be gained by running the Nolva for 6 weeks after the last shot of Test En as the half life of the test is only 10.5 days.

IMO he should continue to run the Nolva @20mg ed for two weeks after the last shot of Test, then begin the Clomid the day after the Nolva was stopped.

**bodgit** · 12-09-2003, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Pheedno

...aids in upstarting HPTA by mimicking estrogen, thus signaling the body to start test production to compensate the estrogen increase.

That is incorrect. Clomid works by binding to the estrogen receptors but without actually activating them. In this way it prevents estrogen from binding to, and activating these receptors which would actually further inhibit natural test production.

**TheMudMan** · 12-09-2003, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by bodgit

Because he's already running the Clomid as part of his PCT by this point. If Clomid is used as part of PCT there is no need for Nolva.

Nolva is not nearly as effective as Clomid with regard to reversing inhibition. It is best used as an anti-gyno during the cycle, and in the case of the Test for two weeks after the last shot. There isn't anything to be gained by running the Nolva for 6 weeks after the last shot of Test En as the half life of the test is only 10.5 days.

IMO he should continue to run the Nolva @20mg ed for two weeks after the last shot of Test, then begin the Clomid the day after the Nolva was stopped.

I would be curious to see your blood work bro.......... Keep running your PCT your way........ I'm going with what works for me and the majority of guys running gear.

**bodgit** · 12-09-2003, 09:45 AM

My bloods are fine, thank you.

**TheMudMan** · 12-09-2003, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by bodgit

That is incorrect. Clomid works by binding to the estrogen receptors but without actually activating them. In this way it prevents estrogen from binding to, and activating these receptors which would actually further inhibit natural test production.

Nolva does that bro..................... not clomid...... Clomid's job is to stimulate HPTA......... Nolva will help in the process....... also if what your saying is true than clomid would be a better choice as a anti-e...... and we all know it isn't

**bodgit** · 12-09-2003, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by TheMudMan

Nolva does that bro..................... not clomid...... Clomid's job is to stimulate HPTA......... Nolva will help in the process....... also if what your saying is true than clomid would be a better choice as a anti-e...... and we all know it isn't

Clomid doesn't really 'stimulate' the HPTA. The HPTA is a number of things, not one thing that can magically be 'stimulated'

Basically the hypothalamus recieves a bunch of inputs (e.g levels of various hormones) and decides whether or not more sex hormones should be produced. If there are high estrogen inputs then it decides that little or no sex hormones should be produced but if these inputs are low then it will trigger the production of more sex hormones. Clomid works by binding to the estrogen receptors but without actually activating them. In this way it prevents estrogen in the body from binding and so fools the hypothalamus into thinking there are low estrogen levels. This then produces LHRH which then stimulates the pituitary gland to produce LH. The amount of LHRH acts as a signal for how much LH to produce. The LH then stimulates the testicles to produce testosterone .

***Pheedno*** · 12-09-2003, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by bodgit

That is incorrect. Clomid works by binding to the estrogen receptors but without actually activating them. In this way it prevents estrogen from binding to, and activating these receptors which would actually further inhibit natural test production.

NOLVA can have a agonist or antagonist effect on the ER depending on estrogen levels already in the body. This is why nolva is given to women going through menopause, it has a estrogen mimicking effect and decreases syptoms of hot flashes, etc.

And while it might have a antagonist effect if estrogen levels are already at a substantial amount, it still mimicks blood and liver estrogen which is why most will see an improvment in HDL during use.

**Paranoid** · 12-09-2003, 12:56 PM

Thanks for the replys guys. As far as Nolva is concerned, I have used it alongside Clomid PCT previously and found it to be quite helpful. That is the reason I am running it all the way through PCT. As far as increasing the dosages on the Test and D-bol, I find that I am very receptive to AAS. Last cycle I did 400mg of Test and 400mg of Deca for 10 weeks and gained 35lb, 25lb of which I retained for close to a year. The point is that I respond extremly well and I believe that low-moderate doses work best for me. Secondly, the main purpose of this cycle is to increase my muscle mass slightly (10-15lb), but more importantly to reduce BF. So this is not an all out bulking cycle. I will aim for only clean calories on this cycle, but for the first 6 weeks they will be relatively high, once I start the Clen and ECA on week 6 the emphasis will shift on reducing BF and getting rid of water retention (lower calories, decreases in sodium). I will aim at 300grams of protein or more per day all throughout the cycle.

***asymmetrical1*** · 12-09-2003, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Paranoid

Thanks for the replys guys. As far as Nolva is concerned, I have used it alongside Clomid PCT previously and found it to be quite helpful. That is the reason I am running it all the way through PCT. As far as increasing the dosages on the Test and D-bol, I find that I am very receptive to AAS. Last cycle I did 400mg of Test and 400mg of Deca for 10 weeks and gained 35lb, 25lb of which I retained for close to a year. The point is that I respond extremly well and I believe that low-moderate doses work best for me. Secondly, the main purpose of this cycle is to increase my muscle mass slightly (10-15lb), but more importantly to reduce BF. So this is not an all out bulking cycle. I will aim for only clean calories on this cycle, but for the first 6 weeks they will be relatively high, once I start the Clen and ECA on week 6 the emphasis will shift on reducing BF and getting rid of water retention (lower calories, decreases in sodium). I will aim at 300grams of protein or more per day all throughout the cycle.

Good luck with the cycle bro...awsome info on this thread by pheed and mud