What exactly is a "hyper excreter"?

**2Sox** · 08-01-2013, 05:30 PM

I heard Crisler speak about himself as a hyper excreter and wondered what excactly this means.

I started on a protocol of 60mg test cyp every 3-3.5 days. Take .25mg adex twice a week. In the first 12 hours after the shot, I'm a dynamo but after that I seem to be dragging my ass around and not too motivated. I'm not sure what's going on. Could it be I should up my dose? Or maybe take 40mg Test C EOD? Not sure what's going on.

Does hyper excreter mean you metablolize the test too fast? Need some help here. Any insight? Thanks.

**Vettester** · 08-01-2013, 05:55 PM

Yeah, that's correct, hyper-excreting is the body metabolizing rapidly, thus effecting the effectiveness of the medication. I didn't read Dr. C's write up on this, but did he mention anything about countering this effect with cobalt supplementation?

Anything is possible, but I would venture to speculate that your lethargic symptoms are attributed to other areas. Double check your thyroid, cortisol/adrenals, B12, Iron, D3 and of course sleep, diet, & environmental conditions that might be causing stress and/or fatigue. B12 methylcobalamin can really make a difference if you haven't supplemented it before. It can be implemented with your test and/or HCG injections.

**clarkster** · 08-01-2013, 06:10 PM

I asked this exact question when I started a thread about it. I can't figure out why I can't reach the T levels of others while taking the same dose. (It sounds like 2Sox, you are in the same boat) For example, 60mg. 2X a week at most can get me in the low 500's while others are in the 800-900 range.
And Vettester, what do you do if your labs turn out normal? Do you just chalk it up to, I just need more Test than others?
2Sox, what is your E2 level?

**2Sox** · 08-01-2013, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Vettester

Yeah, that's correct, hyper-excreting is the body metabolizing rapidly, thus effecting the effectiveness of the medication. I didn't read Dr. C's write up on this, but did he mention anything about countering this effect with cobalt supplementation?

Anything is possible, but I would venture to speculate that your lethargic symptoms are attributed to other areas. Double check your thyroid, cortisol/adrenals, B12, Iron, D3 and of course sleep, diet, & environmental conditions that might be causing stress and/or fatigue. B12 methylcobalamin can really make a difference if you haven't supplemented it before. It can be implemented with your test and/or HCG injections.

Vett,
Crisler mentioned it in one of his You Tubes. I haven't read anything he wrote about it. I wasn't aware that he did.

Good advice about the other stuff you mentioned. Thanks. Got a good place for me to get that B-12?

Clarkster,
I feel ya. And my E2 is well under control. Even .25mg adex twice a week can be too much for me sometimes. I'm going to try to take .175mg now that I have my Liquidex.

**clarkster** · 08-01-2013, 07:32 PM

What is your T level at last BW? Are you pinning IM or SQ? When I switched to SQ (granted I didn't quite get my T level where I wanted) but my Dr took me off my AI and thought it wasn't even needed. It was suggested to me to go from 60mg. 2X to 60mg. 3X ie: M-W-F as I might be hyper metabolizing all the T.

**2Sox** · 08-01-2013, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by clarkster

What is your T level at last BW? Are you pinning IM or SQ? When I switched to SQ (granted I didn't quite get my T level where I wanted) but my Dr took me off my AI and thought it wasn't even needed. It was suggested to me to go from 60mg. 2X to 60mg. 3X ie: M-W-F as I might be hyper metabolizing all the T.

I pin SQ. Haven't had my blood work done since pinning. Optimistic though.

My last bw on Androgel 3 pumps/day was near 800. Switch to test cyp because it's MUCH cheaper.

**clarkster** · 08-01-2013, 09:46 PM

If you are near the same numbers SQ when doing Androgel , then I would think you're doing everything right. Are you under eating/overtraining, which can cause some of the symptoms you're going through?
I just got BW after 2 months pinning IM 60mg. 2X week and it came back 241 and your thread has me intrigued on if I'm a hyper metabolizer/excreter.

**100%** · 08-01-2013, 11:20 PM

A hyper-excreter's hormones hang around in serum in the bound state just fine, but as soon as the hormone is unbound, then the hormone will highly likely be metabolized by the liver on the next pass through the liver, and therefore isn't available for re-use for another purpose.

The fact that someone is a hyper-excreter can show up as:
a) someone with low serum levels of bioavailable hormones, and low urinary hormones
b) someone with low serum levels of bioavailable hormones, and medium levels of urinary hormones
c) someone with low serum levels of bioavailable hormones, and high levels of urinary hormones

From this we see that urinary hormone levels, on their own, are no indicator of a hyper-excreter.

However, the fact that someone has low serum levels of bioavailable hormones does not mean that hyper-excreter is the only explanation.

In fact the majority of males with low serum levels of bioavailable hormones is as a result of insufficient / slow production (normal aging) followed by normal (not fast) liver metabolism.

So it's actually difficult to determine whether someone with low serum levels of bioavailable hormones, is as a result of being a hyper-excreter.

The only acid test which determines whether someone is a hyper excreter, is via an injection of a small amount of radioactive hormone, followed by frequent urinary sampling to determine how quickly the hormone's metabolites appear in the urine.

But since no-one bothers with this test, all that ever happens is that hyper excreters have to take higher doses of hormones, and more frequently, and they must always test their bioavailable levels, or free levels, of any hormone - because their total levels are no indication of their free hormone levels.

**2Sox** · 08-02-2013, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by 100%

A hyper-excreter's hormones hang around in serum in the bound state just fine, but as soon as the hormone is unbound, then the hormone will highly likely be metabolized by the liver on the next pass through the liver, and therefore isn't available for re-use for another purpose.

The fact that someone is a hyper-excreter can show up as:
a) someone with low serum levels of bioavailable hormones, and low urinary hormones
b) someone with low serum levels of bioavailable hormones, and medium levels of urinary hormones
c) someone with low serum levels of bioavailable hormones, and high levels of urinary hormones

From this we see that urinary hormone levels, on their own, are no indicator of a hyper-excreter.

However, the fact that someone has low serum levels of bioavailable hormones does not mean that hyper-excreter is the only explanation.

In fact the majority of males with low serum levels of bioavailable hormones is as a result of insufficient / slow production (normal aging) followed by normal (not fast) liver metabolism.

So it's actually difficult to determine whether someone with low serum levels of bioavailable hormones, is as a result of being a hyper-excreter.

The only acid test which determines whether someone is a hyper excreter, is via an injection of a small amount of radioactive hormone, followed by frequent urinary sampling to determine how quickly the hormone's metabolites appear in the urine.

But since no-one bothers with this test, all that ever happens is that hyper excreters have to take higher doses of hormones, and more frequently, and they must always test their bioavailable levels, or free levels, of any hormone - because their total levels are no indication of their free hormone levels.

This is useful. Maybe that's why I respond so well to daily gel application.

**100%** · 08-02-2013, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by 2Sox

This is useful. Maybe that's why I respond so well to daily gel application.

I inject low dose sub q daily works the best for me.

**2Sox** · 08-02-2013, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by 100%

I inject low dose sub q daily works the best for me.

How much is your daily dose? I'd consider trying daily pins.

**100%** · 08-02-2013, 11:07 AM

20 mg daily no highs lows or sides for me doing it this way. No need for AI and I'm a walking hard-on.

**2Sox** · 08-02-2013, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by 100%

20 mg daily no highs lows or sides for me doing it this way. No need for AI and I'm a walking hard-on.

Sound good to me. I'm 65. Wonder if that would work for me.

What's your hCG protocol?

**clarkster** · 08-02-2013, 12:48 PM

Nice explanation 100%. 20mg. daily? 140mg. a week? How old are you and what were your levels on your last BW, if you don't mind me asking? Where are you pinning your T?

**100%** · 08-02-2013, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by clarkster

Nice explanation 100%. 20mg. daily? 140mg. a week? How old are you and what were your levels on your last BW, if you don't mind me asking? Where are you pinning your T?

I'm 37 my starting number was 244 primary hypogonadism. Daily 20mg puts me at 810 no hcg . I think the best way to test what will work for you is keep track of what day you feel the best. Meaning after you inject every day make a note on what day you feel best. Once you know what day you are feeling your best its just math from there out. Its like catching a buzz to many beers your gonna feel like shit to few your not gonna feel good enough the right amount gonna feel good all night.