im confused

[powerlifterty16]

i had a question...testosterone is measured by ng/dl so if i had 400 ng/dl and someone else had ng/dl cant we still have different levels because we might have different total deciliters of blood?

[tectime]

Ok you are correct tes is measured by ng/DL , now a healthy male adult produces about 7 mg of tes a day. So one mg is one million ng , and 1 liter is 10 deciliters, 7 mg would be like 140,000 ngs. Now the average human body has about 5 liters of blood that's every healthy living person, so your tes levels would mathematically be the same. The only variable would be if one body held substantially more blood.

[crazy mike]

Man keep it simple, crazy mike

[tectime]

Ok 400 ng/DL is going to be the same amount of tes in any two different people unless one of the two people has a lot more volume of blood ! Not likely ! So 400 same no different !

[LT75]

Ok 400 ng/DL is going to be the same amount of tes in any two different people unless one of the two people has a lot more volume of blood ! Not likely ! So 400 same no different !

Wouldn't a 6'3" man have more blood than a 5'2" man?

[The Deadlifting Dog]

I am no expert but I will throw in a guesstimate.

I 7ft tall 400 lbs man has more blood than a 5 ft 100 lbs man. Seems obvious.

However, I believe what matters is the concentration of testosterone in the blood. A testosterone receptor in a muscle doesn't care how much total test exists in a person's body. It cares about how much test is swishing around it at any given moment. The concentration of testosterone in the blood in the general vicinity of the receptor is what matters.

A testosterone receptor in the bicep doesn't care how much testosterone is located in the calve muscle. It only matters how much testosterone is around it at the moment. The higher the concentration of testosterone around the receptor, the better chance of the testosterone binding to the receptor.

Thus the concentration of testosterone in the blood is what is most important.

I of course could be totally wrong.

[powerlifterty16]

also when u donate blood u rob decrease total t by a lot

[trikydik]

I am no expert but I will throw in a guesstimate.
I 7ft tall 400 lbs man has more blood than a 5 ft 100 lbs man. Seems obvious.
However, I believe what matters is the concentration of testosterone in the blood.

I think that is it perfectly. Remember the 400 ng/dl is a ratio of test to blood. Should not matter if you are 50' tall or 1 foot tall. it is still the same ratio that is being measured.

[JD250]

^^^^ Yep.... it also doesn't matter if you give blood or not the ratio stays the same.

[powerlifterty16]

are ratios all that matter? right now my tt is 339 with only a 9 estrogen..so i have a good t to e ratio....so would i feel the same with higher test butt he same ratio of estrogrn or is 339 tt bad no matter your estrogen lol

[phaedo]

Yes, blood tests are a measure of concentration, or the abundance of a constituent - testosterone - divided by the total volume of a mixture.

By definition, concentration is the strength or weakness of a substance in a larger mixture. Division by the constitute and total volume results in the mathematical equivalent of rate (first derivative), which is like something similar to percentage (though not as relative).

Concentration is a more intuitive concept, so you need to realize that the total testosterone measured is equivalent to measuring the number of, say, particles of salt in a determined amount of water. It doesn't matter how much water there is, as long as the amount of salt (constitute) in that amount of water is divided by the total water.

[phaedo]

are ratios all that matter? right now my tt is 339 with only a 9 estrogen..so i have a good t to e ratio....so would i feel the same with higher test butt he same ratio of estrogrn or is 339 tt bad no matter your estrogen lol

No, those are poor numbers.

And no, the ratio of T:E is not of primary importance. Those that cycle anabolic steroids will have testosterone levels in excess of 2500 ng/dL, but this does not mean they want an estrogen level proportionally as high. Does this make sense? I feel like you're trying to make TRT something very complex when it's quite straightforward. You want to normalize each hormone to maximize your quality of life.

*edit*

It'd also be great if you spelled correctly, were inclined to use proper grammar and coherent sentence structures, and throw in some necessary punctuation. It doesn't have to be perfect, but an attempt would be nice.

[LT75]

I think that is it perfectly. Remember the 400 ng/dl is a ratio of test to blood. Should not matter if you are 50' tall or 1 foot tall. it is still the same ratio that is being measured.

I was just replying to the post above my first one stating that 2 people have the same amount of blood in their body. Which is not true. Size, weight, gender and even the altitude we live in can control that.

[powerlifterty16]

No, those are poor numbers.

And no, the ratio of T:E is not of primary importance. Those that cycle anabolic steroids will have testosterone levels in excess of 2500 ng/dL, but this does not mean they want an estrogen level proportionally as high. Does this make sense? I feel like you're trying to make TRT something very complex when it's quite straightforward. You want to normalize each hormone to maximize your quality of life.

*edit*

It'd also be great if you spelled correctly, were inclined to use proper grammar and coherent sentence structures, and throw in some necessary punctuation. It doesn't have to be perfect, but an attempt would be nice.

Seriously? there are people here who don't know the diff between ''your and you're, to and too, and then and than'' and you're calling my grammar out?..i made 2 typos..here..not a big deal brother.

[powerlifterty16]

I was just replying to the post above my first one stating that 2 people have the same amount of blood in their body. Which is not true. Size, weight, gender and even the altitude we live in can control that.

So do you not agree with deadliftingdog's theory? I think it makes sense t a degree..although obviously a guy who is 7 foot tall has higher t

[phaedo]

Seriously? there are people here who don't know the diff between ''your and you're, to and too, and then and than'' and you're calling my grammar out?..i made 2 typos..here..not a big deal brother.

Yes, I agree. But just because other people are linguistically ignorant does not validate you to act in the same manner. Since you know proper grammar, syntax, etc., then it is quite worse to act contrary of the right. For the sake of argument (because I enjoy good arguments), your post is corrected (grammar and punctuation only) in bold:

Are ratios all that matter? Right now my TT is 339, and my estrogen is only at 9...so I have a good T to E ratio. Would I feel the same with higher test but the same ratio of estrogen or is 339 TT bad no matter your estrogen? lol

You see? ;-)

So do you not agree with deadliftingdog's theory? I think it makes sense t a degree..although obviously a guy who is 7 foot tall has higher t

You still don't quite grasp the idea of a concentration (what a blood test measures). It does not matter if a blood test is drawn from a twenty foot giant or four foot dwarf. A arbitrary blood test of 400 ng/dL is the amount of testosterone per determined amount of blood. In other words, for every deciliter of blood found in the giant and dwarf's body, there are 400 ng of testosterone floating around. lol.

So yes, a giant has more blood than a dwarf, and technically speaking, yes, he has more testosterone molecules in his body, but the compound is spread out over much more blood. The "total" testosterone is a measure of how much testosterone is in a specified volume of blood. Capiche?

[Java Man]

To use your own words, 400ng per deciliter.

Per deciliter. Every 1 dl of blood has 400ng of test in it. 400 to 1 Ratio.

If I have 100 dl of blood in 1 dl bottles, all of the bottles will contain 400ng of test each.

Pour all of it into a 100dl container. There is a total of 40,000ng of test in this container. So total test = 40,000.

A 10dl container contains 4,000ng total. 4,000ng / 10 dl of blood » 400ng for each deciliter. It's comparing apples to apples. why is that confusing?

[Java Man]

Wouldn't a 6'3" man have more blood than a 5'2" man?

Yes. a larger body contains a larger volume of blood than a smaller body. 5 liters is the average human body. He did say average human body

[tectime]

Wow, ok larger people will have a larger amount of blood, but not enough to change the numbers alot! Think about it this way, the blood in an average human body is about 7% total body weight. So the AVERAGE human gas 5 liters of blood, that takes in account a healthy person weight to body fat, when someone weighs 200 to someone weighing 250 the difference is not blood volume it's body mass, larger muscles, more fat, not gonna change blood volume much, 400 ng/DL is gonna be the same! When using the term AVERAGE it's not comparing 7' 400lb people to 4' 100lb people. Also ng/DL is not a concentration ratio, it does involve the amount of blood, but the amount of blood in an average human whether they weigh 200 or 250 is not going to be significantly different.

[LT75]

^agree test numbers will be the same no matter the size. Just saying the amount of blood in the body(not testosterone ) is different for different individuals. That is all I was saying.

[Java Man]

Wow, ok larger people will have a larger amount of blood, but not enough to change the numbers alot! Think about it this way, the blood in an average human body is about 7% total body weight. So the AVERAGE human gas 5 liters of blood, that takes in account a healthy person weight to body fat, when someone weighs 200 to someone weighing 250 the difference is not blood volume it's body mass, larger muscles, more fat, not gonna change blood volume much, 400 ng/DL is gonna be the same! When using the term AVERAGE it's not comparing 7' 400lb people to 4' 100lb people. Also ng/DL is not a concentration ratio, it does involve the amount of blood, but the amount of blood in an average human whether they weigh 200 or 250 is not going to be significantly different.

This is just silly 'logic'. Average is a clearly defined term. There is no debate about what 'average' means. It does indeed include 4 foot humans and 7 foot humans.

If I cut Shaq open and bleed him into a bucket And I do the.same to a midget, Shaq will make a much larger bloody mess.

Average: sum(data) / count(data rows)

[powerlifterty16]

shq is an outlier and is so is the 4 foot guy. they are on the right and left of the normal curve respectively. It is idiotic to call them average.

[Java Man]

shq is an outlier and is so is the 4 foot guy. they are on the right and left of the normal curve respectively. It is idiotic to call them average.

Lol. Gl with your confusion. I'm done here.

[tectime]

Not silly logic, it's the term used by the medical society when defining how ng/DL is determined. It is based on the general amount ( 5 liters) because there has to be a fixed number to evaluate from. You can't drain the blood out to see how much there is to determine ng/DL so a fixed number has to be assigned. 96.5 percent of the population is est. to have 5 liters of blood in their system, comparing a 7' person and a 4' person is silly, look up the percent of people In the know world that are that big or that small and you'll see why that term is used. But again the formula for figuring ng/DL is calculated using the number 5 liters because of the huge percent of the world that has approx. that much blood.

[powerlifterty16]

Not silly logic, it's the term used by the medical society when defining how ng/DL is determined. It is based on the general amount ( 5 liters) because there has to be a fixed number to evaluate from. You can't drain the blood out to see how much there is to determine ng/DL so a fixed number has to be assigned. 96.5 percent of the population is est. to have 5 liters of blood in their system, comparing a 7' person and a 4' person is silly, look up the percent of people In the know world that are that big or that small and you'll see why that term is used. But again the formula for figuring ng/DL is calculated using the number 5 liters because of the huge percent of the world that has approx. that much blood.

another thing that may be interesting, is that no individual is the same. You may have a 5'5cguy with 5.1 dl of blood, and a 6'2 guy with 4.9 dl of blood, and if both are at 400 ng/dl then isnt the 5'5 guy having not only80ng MORE TEST, but a higher concentration compared with his size?

[tectime]

Right dude ! That's why the fixed number. I don't know about the concentration factor, I don't know of any research in that direction that can accurately determine the exact volume of blood, but I would be interested if any exists. Expand the mind !

[Vettester]

OK, I'm all for a debatable topic, as it makes for interesting conversation, but I'm trying to figure out what the driving point of this thread is? Is there an ultimate discovery that we are trying to ascertain with this discussion? If it's about total blood volume, yeah, it only makes sense that some people will have a little more/less than the other guy.

Testosterone serum levels will deviate in each individual, regardless of how large or small the individual might be. Everyone 'metabolizes' it differently. Additionally, even if we could viably compare standing serum levels between two individuals (impossible, as it's constantly in a state of metabolism, and we all know that we metabolize at different rates), the conversation is mute, because 97%, 98% or even more is bound to SHBG and albumin. Even if the guy next to you has a 500ng/dl score and you have 400ng/dl, you still might have 30% or more actual testosterone for bio-use compared that other individual. Think of it this way ... If you have a well full of water and I have a regular size bucket full of water, who has more water? You're right, you do. Now, by virtue of regulation you get to only drink "1 glass" of all that water per day, whereas I am allowed "2 glasses: per day. Which person really has more water?

[Java Man]

The direction changed from the original post. IMO the average used by labs and the ratio standard is quite simple. I think it's being overthought and over explained. Maybe google can help with your confusion ty.

[powerlifterty16]

OK, I'm all for a debatable topic, as it makes for interesting conversation, but I'm trying to figure out what the driving point of this thread is? Is there an ultimate discovery that we are trying to ascertain with this discussion? If it's about total blood volume, yeah, it only makes sense that some people will have a little more/less than the other guy.

Testosterone serum levels will deviate in each individual, regardless of how large or small the individual might be. Everyone 'metabolizes' it differently. Additionally, even if we could viably compare standing serum levels between two individuals (impossible, as it's constantly in a state of metabolism, and we all know that we metabolize at different rates), the conversation is mute, because 97%, 98% or even more is bound to SHBG and albumin. Even if the guy next to you has a 500ng/dl score and you have 400ng/dl, you still might have 30% or more actual testosterone for bio-use compared that other individual. Think of it this way ... If you have a well full of water and I have a regular size bucket full of water, who has more water? You're right, you do. Now, by virtue of regulation you get to only drink "1 glass" of all that water per day, whereas I am allowed "2 glasses: per day. Which person really has more water?

i originally made it because i was confused, and thought it would be an interesting topic. java man has been rude the whole thread.
i made the post strictly to find out if there was a big difference n total t. I agree that things like free t and metabolism are most important.

[Java Man]

OK, I'm all for a debatable topic, as it makes for interesting conversation, but I'm trying to figure out what the driving point of this thread is? Is there an ultimate discovery that we are trying to ascertain with this discussion? If it's about total blood volume, yeah, it only makes sense that some people will have a little more/less than the other guy.

Testosterone serum levels will deviate in each individual, regardless of how large or small the individual might be. Everyone 'metabolizes' it differently. Additionally, even if we could viably compare standing serum levels between two individuals (impossible, as it's constantly in a state of metabolism, and we all know that we metabolize at different rates), the conversation is mute, because 97%, 98% or even more is bound to SHBG and albumin. Even if the guy next to you has a 500ng/dl score and you have 400ng/dl, you still might have 30% or more actual testosterone for bio-use compared that other individual. Think of it this way ... If you have a well full of water and I have a regular size bucket full of water, who has more water? You're right, you do. Now, by virtue of regulation you get to only drink "1 glass" of all that water per day, whereas I am allowed "2 glasses: per day. Which person really has more water?

Depends. How much time(t) elapsed between the time subject A drank 1 glass and subject B drank one glass? Did either subject excrete any water during this time? Did subject B drink the 2nd glass before or after subject A excreted x amount of water via sweat, urine, bile, etc? Did subject A have more total blood volume than subject B and if so, did subject B increase blood volume during t between water glass 1 and water glass 2?

I'm confused!

[Java Man]

i originally made it because i was confused, and thought it would be an interesting topic. java man has been rude the whole thread.
i made the post strictly to find out if there was a big difference n total t. I agree that things like free t and metabolism are most important.

Rude the whole thread? That's news to me my friend. I guess my sense of humor doesn't sit well with yours. My apologies. I'll stay out of your threads from now on. I was.trying to help.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

I find this thread interesting on many different levels.

Besides that, I think some things should really be cleared up.

According to the Geigy Scientific Tables, an average adult male has 71ml of blood/kg of body weight.
Thus an average adult male has 32.2ml of blood/pound of body weight.
The amount of blood in an average human whether they weigh 200 or 250lb is significantly different.
A 200lb man would have on average 6.44 liters of blood.
A 250lb man would have on average 8.05 liters of blood.
If they both had a testosterone concentration of 400ng/DL, the 250lb man would have 25% more total testosterone in their body. (For those who care, the amount of total testosterone present would be 25,760ng vs 32,200ng.)
Also, ng/DL is a concentration ratio.
96.5% of the population is not estimated to have 5 liters of blood. (An average 161lb man is estimated to have 5 liters of blood.)
The formula for calculating ng/DL is not calculated using the number of 5 liters.

I do not like when people spew out false information on a forum and present it as the gospel.

As an interesting side note:
If someone donates blood, their concentration of test will go down.
However it will not go down immediately. At first, their total volume of blood will go down but the testosterone concentration will stay the same. As the blood gets replenished by the body, this new testosterone free blood will dilute the concentration of the existing blood. This is of minimum concern however because the subject will soon enough add new testosterone into the blood via TRT, AAS, or the testes.

And back to what the OP asked in the first place:
Yes, if 2 people have 400ng/DL of testosterone can one have more total testosterone than the other?
Yes, the one with more blood has more total testosterone because:
total testosterone = volume times concentration

[tectime]

I'm not sputing gospel, that info all comes from anatomy and physiology text books. It's not my opinion, only facts from several medical papers and clinical studies. I care not if you or anyone takes it as facts, look it up your self. I hope it inspires others to look as you must have! I will be researching your said info because if factual it will only increase my knowledge! Although ?

[Bonaparte]

The Deadlifting Dog already posted what I was going to say.
Tectim, you misinterpreted what you read (or assumed falsehoods).

[phaedo]

Also, ng/DL is a concentration ratio.

^ Exactly.

To sum up a thread that is now beating a dead horse: a bigger man will have more TOTAL testosterone in his body, but his total CONCENTRATION will be the same as a smaller man, given a ~ 400 ng/dL blood test result for both men.

On average, a bigger person has bigger everything: more blood, larger kidneys, higher amounts of hormones, etc; and therefore, more testosterone molecules. What a blood test measures is not the total amount of the testosterone compound floating about in your body, but the CONCENTRATION per deciliter of blood. Why? Because concentration is a relative form of measurement; it normalizes the numbers so they're applicable to person A and person B, no matter their size.

I don't think this subject can get any clearer then how many times I or Deadlifting Dog posts the same sense over and over lol.

[JohnGalt]

unless we were to all go to the blood lab drawing places and the technicians there were to pull out every drop of blood from our body. Then replace the blood in our bodies with some sort of fake blood, run the full battery of tests on the blood they removed (destroying it by centrifuges, chemicals, etc.) then replace the blood into our bodies and report the results to our doctors. Otherwise ALL blood tests are a measure of concentration versus completely accurate measure of every molecule of a particular substance in our bloods.

[tectime]

Hey just google testosterone conversions ml ng/DL steroids . Simple reading and it should answer this long debate, and hopefully clear up some very inaccurate info !

[tectime]

It's the simplest one I could find!