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  1. #1
    *Narkissos*'s Avatar
    *Narkissos* is offline Anabolic Member
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    Perpetual cycling... Mr.Sparkle?

    This is just brainstorming on my part. The need for this thought was born from the recognition that there are individuals like myself that take extremely long to recover from cycles. We're not talking long-cycles either... The cycles in question are the very standard cycle-lengths i.e. 8-12 weeks in duration.

    The above-mentioned incidence of mal-recovery is the governing reason why individuals like myself and Mr. Sparkle stay away from exogenous adrogens...as the shut-down in unbearable...and recovery difficult and sketchy. The fear exists that at some point...after a cycle one may NEVER recover. That being said...here's my idea for perpetual cycling.

    The cycle is two-part...a combination of two short cycles really. The difference being...the emphasis isn't on JUST androgen-mediated growth. Rather, growth is sought in both the 'ON' phase and the 'PCT'.

    Compounds used while on will be taken from this list:

    **NB: this is not an exhaustive list... the concept is to use a short-acting compound...and to some extent any short-acting, averagely-suppressive steroid could be added to the test-base...Yes...Testosterone IS the base. I'll explain further down.


    Injectibles: Testosterone -Propionate , Trenbolone Acetate, Nandrolone PhenylPropionate...etc.

    Orals: t-bol, winstrol , anavar ...etc.

    D-bol can be added if an Aromatase Inhibitor is used. The point of leaving it out of the list is because it aromatises easily. An increase in estrogen will increase SHBG...and also further suppress the HPTA...That's a double negative.


    Aromatase Inhibitors: anastrazole (Arimidex ® exemestane (Aromasin ® letrozole (Femara&#174

    Prolactin Modulator: Bromocriptine... Quasi-essential if Trenbolone is used.

    Insulin Sensitivity Modulating Compounds: Metformin; Avandia

    Yes...by now you're seeing where i'm going with this aren't you?

    Compounds while 'off':

    Standard 'PCT' meds: Nolva with preference...and Clomid (I'd personally go with Nolva..because Clomid can act as a mild estrogen and hypothetically could be HPTA-suppressive in some instances...tho this is subject to debate.I think i should add i no longer use Clomid because of said effects noticed in myself.)

    Insulin: Humalog only... Exogenous insulin stimulates both LH and FSH..making it a great addition during PCT.

    Nootropics: Nootropics are used because they increase Nerve-Growth Factor(NGF) in the HPTA. NGF increases the recovery rate of the glands in the brain, specifically the hypothalamus and pituitary. They include Hydergine, Piracetem, and Selegiline ...among others. (Google: "Nootropic+Substances +increase+testosterone"...for more info)


    The Cycle Structure...

    Test-prop: Weeks 1-6
    Tren-A: weeks 1-6

    Bromocriptine: Weeks 3-6 (just an outline... The bromo doesn't need to be started this late. It would be if no sides are evident earlier. The point in starting it later, in the absence, is to speed recovery at the end of the cycle... as Bromo acts to decrease the amount of prolactin that the pituitary releases. It keeps prolactin in check while stimulating sperm production and erectile function. Three weeks because... If used too frequently or for too long, it can lead to poor appetite and decreased receptor sensitivity.)

    Metformin: weeks 1-6
    Arimidex: weeks 1-6 (Conventional thought suggests Letro administration is necessary 2 weeks prior to the commencement of the cycle to get serum levels up to an effective level at the commencement of the cycle... so really If Letro is used over arimidex...the protocol will change slightly to facilitate this two week period)

    Weeks 7-12

    Nolvadex: Weeks 7-10 (Standard PCT doses) Weeks 11-12 (Maintenance doses: extended PCT. Doses will be similar to those used during a normal cycle at this point (e.g. 10-20 mg ED))

    Insulin: Humalog Post-workout...Weeks 7-12 (Yes Six weeks on slin)

    Nootropics: Pirecetam/ALCAR Weeks



    The train of thought...

    Instead of looking at cycling in the standard veiw..with testosterone manipulation being the base of the veiw. We'll look at it from the point of veiw of manipulating insulin more effectively.

    The first half of the cycle is for increasing insulin sensitivity...tru androgen/anxillarty application. (Testosterone application increases insulin sensitivity.)

    The second half of the cycle is for capitalising on that environment of increased insulin sensitivity through the administration of exogenous insulin. Exogenous insulin administration increases testosterone production through the increase in Luteinising Hormone (LH) and Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH)... This, coupled with the synergistic administration of SERMs and Nootropics creates an ideal environment for Post-Cycle Testosterone recovery.


    Why i think this approach is both advisable and hypothetically applicable.

    1. Because both halves of the cycle are growth-oriented...Recovery is faster on short cycles... and seeing that the 'cycle' isn't one-sided (i.e. One half is suppressive...while one is recovery-oriented..but BOTH are growth-oriented)...it isn't disimilar to a 12-weeker... Just easier to recover from.

    2. Time on = time on

    3. Because of it's structure..it is plausible that it could be repeated nearly indefinately. There is no need to take 12 weeks off...because theorectically, weeks 7-12 are recovery-oriented.

    4. Exogenous Humalog administration has been shown to reduce insulin resistance...when used post-prandially as illustrated here. So insulin resistance isn't a limiting factor here either.

    Again..this is just brain-storming...a hypothesis...not an actual article

    Thoughts?

    ~Narkissos

  2. #2
    Mr. Sparkle's Avatar
    Mr. Sparkle is offline Slinabolic Vet / Retired
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    Like I said over there...... Ill give a good reply tomorrow....

    YOu and I have been thinking very very alike

  3. #3
    Pinnacle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sparkle
    Like I said over there...... Ill give a good reply tomorrow....

    YOu and I have been thinking very very alike
    dammm Mr. Sparkle we've been waiting all day for your response..and you give us this?


    ~Pinnacle~

  4. #4
    spound's Avatar
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    Nark, jsut a thought, but I would think test suspension would be quite a bit more effective in this type of cycle structure due to its VERY FAST activation time. That shit kicks quisk as shit for me.

  5. #5
    rodge's Avatar
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    bump for mr. sparkle's thoughts on it.

    nark, nice post. very interesting.

    -rodge

  6. #6
    *Narkissos*'s Avatar
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    The limiting factor here imo would be the individual's experience with anabolics and the suppresive nature of individual compounds.

    A friend of mine pointed out that in the cycle i instructed tren -A to be used..cus it's a short ester. The contradiction here would be that even as a short-estered compound, tren is highly suppressive.

    My arguement to this point is that...the average user uses tren longer than 6 weeks... so the duration of use may me more of a factor in determining the suppressivity of trenbolone ...than the compound or metabolites itself.

    Spound: The compounds illustrated above where added just as a hypothesis to outline the cycle structure...i.e. the list isn't exhaustive. Test suspension is a viable thought.

    Anymore input?

    Thanks all...


  7. #7
    bigbouncinballs's Avatar
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    interesting...

  8. #8
    JohnnyB's Avatar
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    Where's the HCG if you're worried about recovery? A 6-8 week cycle can be just as suppressive as a 10-12 week cycle, why. The short ester is going to release the hormone sooner then the long ester, causing the HPTA to shut down sooner.

    This sounds good, but I don't see how using short esters, is going to better for recovery, recovery is recovery, once the HPTA is shut down, you need to bring it back on line. If you have a hard time recovering from a standard cycle, how are the short esters going to minimize the shut down of the HPTA? Using tren is the best idea either, when trying to avoid or minimize shut down, 19-nors, shut you down harder then other gear.

    The time on, time off, approach, could be come your enemy. If you take longer to recover from a cycle, at 6 week you could just be fully recovering, then you're going to start again. That may cause more problems on your next recovery, possibly not letting you recover fully in 6 weeks, the you'll start again.

    My point being, once you're shut down, you still need to recover and if you don't recover well, I don't see how these short times between cycle would help.

    I see it possibly working, if you take 5 weeks to recover, then add that time, to your time on time off. Giving you 6-8 weeks after recovery, before cycling. If I misunderstood your post, can you post weeks of compound use.

    I don't think any PCT should be run for a set amount of time 3-4 weeks. I believe it should be run until you fully recover, your sex drive is back, with morning wood.

    1 question, why no HCG?

    JohnnyB

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB
    This sounds good, but I don't see how using short esters, is going to better for recovery, recovery is recovery, once the HPTA is shut down, you need to bring it back on line.
    JohnnyB

    You will note in the following graph (Minto et. al) that Nandrolone , when administered with a shorter ester (phenylpropionate), allowed both a quicker and higher level recovery of endogenous testosterone levels when compared with the longer ester (decanoate):



    So if by "better" for recovery we mean either "quicker" or "more highly" then it would appear shorter esters are better for recovery.
    Last edited by Property of Steroid.com; 10-24-2005 at 05:15 PM.

  10. #10
    *Narkissos*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    You will note in the following graph (Minto et. al) that Nandrolone , when administered with a shorter ester (phenylpropionate), allowed both a quicker and higher level recovery of endogenous testosterone levels when compared with the longer ester (decanoate):



    So if by "better" for recovery we mean either "quicker" or "more highly" then it would appear shorter esters are better for recovery.
    Thanks Hooker...that's the point of my hypothesis.

  11. #11
    *Narkissos*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB
    A 6-8 week cycle can be just as suppressive as a 10-12 week cycle, why....
    That's debatable. The longer you're shut down...the longer the road to recovery is. The possibility of NOT recovering increases the longer one is shut down.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB
    Using tren is the best idea either, when trying to avoid or minimize shut down, 19-nors, shut you down harder then other gear.
    I think you missed this...this was my explanation for including tren in the outline. It was a hypothesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Narkissos
    A friend of mine pointed out that in the cycle i instructed tren-A to be used..cus it's a short ester. The contradiction here would be that even as a short-estered compound, tren is highly suppressive.

    My arguement to this point is that...the average user uses tren longer than 6 weeks... so the duration of use may me more of a factor in determining the suppressivity of trenbolone...than the compound or metabolites itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB
    1 question, why no HCG ?

    JohnnyB
    Hcg's 'good' but avoided for a couple reasons:

    Trying to avoid elevating estrogen...as that would be further suppressive to the HPTA...and recovery. In addition...the potential backlash with an increase in estrogen is an elevation in SHBG...that's a double negative.

    Besides...the duration of the cycle is to short to make hcg applicable.

    Meh...i'm tired. Forgive me if i babble....haven't slept more than two hours in the last two nights.

    ~Nark
    Last edited by *Narkissos*; 10-24-2005 at 08:00 PM.

  12. #12
    *Narkissos*'s Avatar
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    I appreciate the input tho JohnnyB...and would like more if you've got any

    Thanks...

    And thanks Hooker...for reveiwing the thread.

    ~Nark

  13. #13
    decadbal's Avatar
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    bump for sparkle

  14. #14
    JohnnyB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narkissos
    I appreciate the input tho JohnnyB...and would like more if you've got any

    Thanks...

    And thanks Hooker...for reveiwing the thread.

    ~Nark
    HCG in small doses does raise estrogen to peak levels ( the raise is minimal, if there's one at all, it's the high doses that does that. We're not sure it's the estrogen that cause the desensitization of the testes to LH

    JohnnyB

  15. #15
    JohnnyB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker


    Isn't that chart about using 1 shot of 4-1 ml? Cause if that chart is after a 6-8 week cycle, hell you don't need PCT after using NPP, which I find hard to believe. The chart clearly say NPP 4ml glute shot and 4ml and 1ml glute shot of deca , then 1ml delt shot of deca. I don't see how a chart about doing 1 shot of norandrolone, would show that recovery after shutting down the HPTA would apply, unless your cycle consists of 1 shot, which isn't a cycle at all. Didn't that same study show that glute shots, were better then delt shots?

    I remember reading this years ago, but after it was discussed, the conclusion was, this wouldn't apply to someone doing a cycle, cause it was done with only one shot of varying amounts. But it does show how fast norandrolone can start to shut down the HPTA, after only one shot. With tren being a 19-nor, it fits right in with this.

    Could you imagine adding, say 10 more shots to that chart, how much lower the test would go? I don't believe the raise will be as fast after extended use either. So I still stand by my original statement, once you're shut down you're shut down and recovery will be the same. With NPP you maybe able to start that recovery sooner, but you still have to deal with the HPTA being shut down and as you can see by the chart posted, they both take you to just about the same point of being shut down. If you look close, the diamond is the NPP and it's the lowest. So the short esters will shut you down sooner according to that chart, grant it, you'll be able to start PCT sooner, but you're still dealing with recovery of the HPTA.

    JohnnyB

  16. #16
    mesomorph's Avatar
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    Just was reading in a controversial thread that referred to this thread and suddenly it was gone...? So posting in an old thread...

    I have been in the game for a while but I stick with very basic short cycles, so this thread was pretty interesting. I have been hearing lately that HGH is great to be on post cycle for the same reasons, it doesn't raise your estrogen levels, or interfere with test recovery, and keeps you in positive growth, but is less dangerous than slin. The big downside is the cost of HGH.

    Anxious for comments, including negative ones that have pertinent data.

  17. #17
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    If you're ready for slin, think about doing, LR3 for 4 week, then slin for 4, then repeat. That'll give you 16 weeks between cycles and you should add some quality mass.

    JohnnyB

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