Humalog / slin and PWO meal schedule

[tommyloan]

Hi... I'm hoping I can get an answer from someone who really knows this stuff, not someone who has just "heard" about it:

I've seen MANY posts claim:
-inject slin then immediately (or within 15 mins) drink your shake
-1 to 1.5 hrs after the injection, eat a solid food meal, like chicken and brown rice
-2 hrs after the injection, eat another solid food meal.

Question is, on that 2nd meal, is that 2 hrs after the INJECTION, or 2 hours after the 1st MEAL?

Therefore (for example):
9am- Humalog and shake
10am- chicken and rice
11am- chicken and rice

***or***

9am- Humalog and shake
10am- chicken and rice
12noon- chicken and rice

Thanks in advance, appreciate it!!!

[RedBaron]

I have used HGH and insulin (and pretty much all other peptides that have ever come along) for most of a decade ... so hopefully I will be at least minimally qualified to comment on your question. I have experimented in just about every way that I could conceive of over the last 10-15 years, and have figured out what seems to work/not work at least for myself and the group of athletes that I am closely associated with.

The first part of the information going around as you have stated is pretty much sound and is a good plan to force feed the muscles and keep yourself from hypoglycemia, while keeping fat gain to a minimum. While I certainly didn't originate the concept or the idea, I had written up the shake and first meal ideas on my peptide cycle guide many years back as an idea to work a HGH/Insulin cycle around. For the most part, that is what the majority of us have done with good success over many years. As with everything, minor tweaking will dial it in for any given individual, but as a good place to start it works well.

The timing that has been suggested to you is right ... to drink your shake t+15 minutes, then follow it up with a meal an hour to an hour and a half later. That is going to get the nutrients into the pipe at the same time the insulin is ready to shuttle them. That is for the gluatamine/creatine/dextrose/protein shake and then the first protein/carb meal.

As far as a second large meal that close to the first ... that honestly is going to depend on how big you are, how hard the workout was, how much insulin you took, your own normal metabolism, age, fitness level, and factors like that. The thing to remember is the whole purpose of taking insulin in the first place. We are trying to shut down the catabolic state your muscles are in immediately after a workout and begin force feeding, restoring glycogen levels, and letting them repair and build right away. That is why I have preached for years that for the vast majority, what makes sense if insulin is part of the equation is to take it the second you drop the last weight, and then get the nutrients flowing.

The flip side to this is that while you want to really give you muscles a good force feeding, the excess above and beyond what your muscles will take in goes straight to fat stores. Insulin is our storage hormone. It shuttles sugars to the muscles, and whatever the muscles don't need, it shuttles them right to your fat cells. It instructs your body to store, store, store. Too much of a good thing isn't good. Insulin is going to store everything we eat ... but if the muscles are as full as they are going get, then the rest is wasted and it just fat to have to worry about later. So with that second meal ... it really does depend. I don't think you could make a real hard and fast statement about the wisdom of that meal ... you will have to listen to your body.

If you are finding that after your workout you take your insulin injection, drink your shake, eat your meal, and then you are feeling really tight and flushed in your muscles and aren't going hypo, then you are okay without eating an immediate second full meal. If on the other hand you are finding that your BG is dropping off a little too much for comfort and you need that second meal, then your own metabolism is going to dictate when that should be 1 hour or 2 hours after the first meal. If you have already taken a shake and a solid meal with protein and carbs, the chance of dropping into a serious hypoglycemic state is actually going to be pretty much nil, so I would experiment a bit to see if you really want/need to add that meal at all.

If you do add that meal as well, keep an eye on your fat levels. If you start packing it on, then it might be time to revisit the meal plan. There is a fine balance there, and while that might be exactly what the doctor ordered for a 325 pound pro bodybuilder, it might be no so much for a 225 pound aspiring bodybuilder. As with everything we do, you do have to listen to your own body and be willing to experiment a little to dial things in. In time you will get your program dialed in and know exactly what levels of supplements and nutrients work for you.

Best of luck to you.

[tommyloan]

RedBaron, THANK YOU. That's exactly what I needed, some info to comfort me and let me relax a little. Although I've been taking "supplements" for about 15+yrs and GH for about 5 yrs, this is my first bout with slin. I used to have a diabetic co-worker and every once in a while she would have seizures and the paramedics would have to come blazing in with their sirens blaring. Seeing that first hand (and hearing her scream) has me REALLY scared about playing around with this stuff, but today was my 2nd day and so far, so good.

Since I have you, please explain something that makes no sense to me. Right after the injection, I'm doing Waximaize carbs and Isopure protein. Obviously, the Waximaize is FAST acting. But an hour later, we're told to eat rice and I always eat brown rice, which is LOW glycemic index. So, the shake gets i nto my blood fast to prevent low blood sugar, but then the brown rice is SLOW. I started thinking about it while eating that first solid-food meal, I felt a little tingling in my face (perhapd my imagination from being paranoid) so I ate a glucose tab and drank some Gatorade. Today was my second day, so it was only 5iu's of Humalog and my fist shake was 60gms Waximaize and 60gms Isopure; I figured better safe than sorry so that's why I ate MORE than 19gms carbs per IU.

2nd question, I know at 5iu's Humalog we need 50gms carbs and 50gms and when we build up to 10iu's we need 100gms cards, do we also need 100protein?

3rd question: on that second meal, by the time I'm up to 10iu's slin, am I supposed to be eating 100gms of brown rice? Everyone talks about up'ing that first shake, but they never talk about up'ing that 2nd meal.

Last question: if I notice I'm gaining too much fat and I decide to decrease the carb intake on that 1st solid-food meal, I would think I'm trading the decreased fat storage but INCREASING my risk of reaching going hypo.

Ok, I lied, one more question, if I start to go hypo, do guys sometimes go immediately from NO SIGNS of hypo and then in to seizure? Or do you ALWAYS feel it coming on so you have a chance to eat your glucose tabs or Gatorade? I'm so paranoid, after the shot, I carry the glucose tabs and Gatorade with me to every room in the house, even the toilet, LoL.

Thank you VERY much for taking the time to help me!!!

-tommyloan

ps- my avatar pic is me. I'm 38yrs old (but I look like 29 or 30, hehe), 5'8", 185lbs, I'm guessing about 5-6% body fat, currently on Sustanon /Equipoise /Anavar /GH. For my specs, do you think I should still build up to 10iu's Humalog post workout? Oh yeah, and if I always just do 6iu's, will that still help me, or is that a waste of time? (I'm thinking about how 100mg of Sust per week is worthless, so why even start it). Is that the same thing with slin? You won't get any significant results unless you get up to 10iu per day?

[RedBaron]

The reasoning behind the timing and type of carbs is somewhat like this. We want a really fast, easy carb and protein source in our shake to get right in the system quickly to be available for shuttle to the muscles and to also stave off hypoglycemia. The meal that follows contains solid proteins and relatively lower glycemic index carbs to give us a steady supply of carbs and protein in the hours that follow. A quick G.I. carb is going to hit really hard and then go away. Since the insulin is active for a few hours, we want both that quick spike and then a supply of carbs that will spread over the active window of the insulin. The combination of the shake and a solid meal accomplishes that nicely. We are avoiding fat all together since our body under the influence of insulin is going to store everything ... the last thing we want to do is shuttle some saturated fat right into our body's fat cells. We are trying to get rid of / keep gone fat. We don't want our insulin cycle to be counterproductive to a nice/lean physique.

As far as the the amount of carbs/protein per IU of insulin, you are going to be able to tune that in a little as you find out how you react to the insulin. While it is wise to start with 10g of carbs per IU of insulin, over time you will probably notice that you can reduce that a little bit over time. I personally usually use 7g of carbs per IU of insulin. That seems to be the mark for me. As far as the protein, I would only increase up to an upper threshold. You can start at 50g as you are doing now, but above about 70-80g in your shake I think it will be a waste.

In the meal that follows up an hour later, it is the same idea. You want a good supply of proteins and clean carbs to fuel the next few hours, but above a reasonable amount is also just going to be a waste and likely give your poor gut some grief about trying to process that much food in that short of a time. It really is a somewhat individual matter as to what that magic amount of food intake is. Based on your present stats, I wouldn't say that getting radical with the amount of food intake would be necessary or advised.

As far as the threat of hypoglycemia goes, you are going to definitely get a warning call. You won't really go from zero signs to real trouble without warning. The thing is to be prepared to deal with it when the starting signs come, but you will most definitely get a warning and a window to deal with it. Those that get in trouble are the ones that don't have their plan of action sorted out. If you were to start going hypo, then tell yourself you need to get in the car, find an open store, buy a glucose drink or pills, then do something about it, you might be in for a really unpleasant time. If you already have that stuff on-hand, you certainly aren't going to pass out while trying to get from your bathroom to the kitchen.

I wouldn't say that you would HAVE to run 10 IU's of insulin to benefit. As I mentioned in the other post, all we are using extra insulin for is to shuttle nutrients. The larger your frame and muscle weight, the more robust the shuttle needs to be and the more nutrients we need to throw into the pipe. If your find that at 6-7 IU's of insulin your muscles are getting that really flushed, tight sensation that you have force fed them sufficiently, then that is fine. If after getting used to the insulin your find that you need to bump it up a couple of IU's, that is fine to. These days I use 12 IU's, but I outweigh you by about 90 pounds. You will probably need to experiment just a little with the dose, but in general I would use just what you need to get the job done. More is not better for sure above what you need. The effective dose would likely be 6-7 at the low side, and 10-12'ish (maybe 15) on the upper end.

Just watch your body's feedback as you go. It will key you in. Things like -

Are my muscles really full and tight after the insulin application?

Am I holding a decently low percentage of bodyfat, or am I turning into the Pilsbury Doughboy or the Michelin Man?

Do I feel like I am actually processing the food that I am shoveling in, or am I just feeling like a bloated, miserable mess?

While I may get a little tingle here or there, am I feeling REALLY bad during the active window of the insulin ... sweating, nausea, shakiness, bad headache ?

As long as all of those seem to be ticking along nicely, your insulin should be doing the job and your muscles should be appreciating the good feeding they are getting. If any of these are amiss, adjust your insulin and nutrient applications a little and then watch for the feedback again. Over this first run, you will probably learn a lot about how your body responds, and in turn will be able to really dial in what you need to do to capitalize on your cycle.

Best of luck to you.

[Bigpeat]

Here is something I can add to an old thread, with some added questions.

After months of research decided to introduce Humalog-R into the mix. Currently taking 400Mg Deca and 600Mg test, 3iu Norditropin, 9iu slin. HGH and Slin are only used on training days, post workout. I am 44yrs old, 6’3, 240lbs, 13%bf. Training for 30yrs.

I am having an issue with BGL dripping down to 50mg/dl around the 2hr mark post slin. I started using only 5iu and slowly worked my way up depending on how well my body accepted the slin. I am very careful and use a BGL meter and test at specific intervals and recoded my levels. Based on several readings from respectable users, I switched from Vitargo to straight Dextrose from Now Sports. I’ve also slowly dropped the ratio of carbs to iu’s down to 7g or carbs per iu.

Now this is where I need feedback form advanced users of Humalog. The amount of carbs needed to cover the iu’s used (with me) seems more important at the 2hour mark vs initially. Everything that I’ve read seems to push the Waxy Maze, Vitargo, Dextrose initially and just talks about low fat food after. Since Humalog starts 10-15min, peaks 1.5-2.5hrs and done at 4.5-6hrs. (For me, peak is 2hrs and done in 4hr.) im asking what do YOU consume during the active life of Humalog ? I initially have dextrose/50g whey isolate/7g creatine/5g glutamine. 1hr later, 9oz sweet potatoes (50g carbs) 8.5oz chicken. 1hr after that (2hrs post slin) I have 1.3c brown rice (50g carbs) 8.5oz chicken. I have also made a chart that indicates BGL at intervals post slin and when meals were consumed.

I cover the initial spike of slin no problem, it’s the peak that I can’t get covered. I have OJ and Glucose Tabs on hand but trying to rely on clean food. I am being overly cautious of putting on fat. From what I have read it’s the initial PWO drink that is so important and needs to be adequate to cover the amount of slin used. From the chart I have made below, it would seem that it’s the peak of Humalog that needs to be covered with the right amount of carbs, not so much the initial.
If anyone can share their experiences and food consumed at what intervals, it would be greatly appreciated. I just feel like im shoving food into my gut and force feeding.

As you can see, I was fine at 7iu but making the jump to 9iu the floor keeps falling out from under me. The first time it looks like I waited too long. the second time it was at 53mg within 2hrs post slin and only 1hr post last meal. The golden question for me, do I need to eat more carbs the 2 meals after the shake ? 9oz of sweet potatoes and then 1.3c of rice is a lot. Do I add yogurt or applesauce ? I really wanted to hold off on the simple carbs for meal #2 and #3. Its been a week and I havent noticed or felt any significantly fuller, bigger or stronger.

My fasting number is 72mg. WITHOUT insulin on non training days, when I consume 60g rice, 8.5oz chicken and in 30 min I am at 87mg and 60min after that meal I am 85mg, 2.5hrs after I am at 83mg. As you can see, very steady.

Thank you for your input.





5iu
PWO 60g Dex / 50g Whey / 7g creatine / 5g glutamine 12.0:1
30 min 107mg
60 min 104mg
60 min Meal
100 min 79mg
120 min 87mg

6iu
PWO 60g Dex / 50g Whey / 7g creatine / 5g glutamine 10.0:1
30 min 105mg
60 min 83mg
60 min Meal
120 min 92mg
150 min Meal 90 min after 1st meal


7iu
PWO 60g Dex / 50g Whey / 7g creatine / 5g glutamine 8.5:1
30 min 102mg
60 min 70mg
60 min Meal
120 min 62mg
120 min Meal 60 min after 1st meal
150 min 92mg


9iu
PWO 72g Dex / 50g Whey / 7g creatine / 5g glutamine 7.0:1
30 min 97mg
60 min 76mg
60 min Meal
120 min 93mg
180 min 50mg WAITED TOO LONG
180 min Meal 120 min after 1st meal
210 min 76mg
225min 79mg


9iu 86mg prior
PWO 72g Dextrose / 50g Whey / 7g creatine / 5g glutamine 7.0:1
30 min 99mg
60 min 84mg
60 min Meal
90 min 58mg
120 min 53mg
120 min Meal Only 1hr after prior meal
150 min 78mg
180 min 74mg
240 min 84mg