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Thread: PCT and Cycle Recomendations: Estrogen, Progesterone and Cortisol control

  1. #81
    Drummerboy's Avatar
    Drummerboy is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrj View Post
    Clen doesn't block cortisol, PERIOD! ... it increases oxygen in the blood thereby increasing the likelyhood of an anabolic state which we all know is not a catabolic state or a cortisol friendly environment ...

    W
    interesting...

  2. #82
    bomber22 is offline New Member
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    can i have some suggestions for pct with my cycle please?

    500mg of Test E for 12 weeks..
    30mg of Dbol for 4 weeks..

    Would i need an AI on hand for during my cycle? i can only get arimiplex, would that do?

    Only asking because im a little unsure still, just being safe.
    Cheers.

  3. #83
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    you would be better off posting this as a thread in the forum, and maybe reading other PCT suggestions.

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    ARABIAN NIGHTS is offline New Member
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    at my fifth week cycle of test e and dianabole i felt that my nibbles started to get bigger i took 10mg/day nolvadex for three days and it is gone shall i stop unitl i finish or continue please help??

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    SlimJoe is offline Banned
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    very educating thread

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    PlasmaTest is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    Ok here goes...



    AI's (Aromatase Inhibitors) : There are 2 types of AI's. Type I (suicide inhibitor) attaches to the aromatase enzyme and permanently disables it. Type II compete for the enzyme, but dont destroy it. Both are effective at lowering estrogen substantially. Both are commonly used during both cycling and PCT. Used mainly when low estrogen levels are desired, like contest preparation/cutting. Beware that lowering estrogen with strong AI's can have a negative effect on cholesterol levels and low estrogen levels can lead to sore joints, cause your losing estrogens anti-inflammitory effect. Can also have a negative impact on your libido. Estrogen has an important role in mass building and joint health, as noted below where "estrogen" is explained.


    ~DB~
    How long do these (Aromatase Inhibitors) stay active in doing there job after stopping them??Mainly the Type I (suicide inhibitor)???

    Thanx

  7. #87
    BJJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    Ok here goes...

    I am starting this thread after tons of reading, and taking advice from the more prominent members from various boards. I just wanted to summarize a bunch of useful threads here, bringing it together in one post and simplifying the popular substances used to control estrogen/progesterone/cortisol and restore natural test levels. Ill go over the compounds briefly, and summarize at the end of the post. A few definitions before you start :

    SERM's (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) : These block certain estrogen receptors, ***ending on the drug, and dont actually lower estrogen in the blood. Estrogen is left to circulate with nowhere to go. Because of this, SERMS have a positive effect on cholesterol levels. They have a negative effect on IGF-1, so if bulking, only take them if totally necessary. They are good at blocking gyno. Commonly used during PCT, and less often used while cycling. A SERM like nolvadex is widely used in PCT to help kickstart the HPTA back to normal function, in conjunction with other beneficial drugs. To learn how this works, please refer to Anthony Roberts PCT in the PCT section.

    AI's (Aromatase Inhibitors) : There are 2 types of AI's. Type I (suicide inhibitor) attaches to the aromatase enzyme and permanently disables it. Type II compete for the enzyme, but dont destroy it. Both are effective at lowering estrogen substantially. Both are commonly used during both cycling and PCT. Used mainly when low estrogen levels are desired, like contest preparation/cutting. Beware that lowering estrogen with strong AI's can have a negative effect on cholesterol levels and low estrogen levels can lead to sore joints, cause your losing estrogens anti-inflammitory effect. Can also have a negative impact on your libido. Estrogen has an important role in mass building and joint health, as noted below where "estrogen" is explained.

    RI's (Reductase Inhibitors) : These drugs stop the conversion of testosterone into DHT wherever 5-alpha reductase enzymes are present. RI's work by blocking the action of the 5-alpha. There are 2 5a's. Type I 5a and Type II 5a. Different RI's block one or both of these 5a's. The main reason someone uses RI's is to stop hairloss. They are common anti hairloss drugs. The problem is, when you block the dht conversion, there are less androgens available and may reduce your gains. Sometimes people report less strength, aggression and drive to train.

    Estrogen : The first hormone we need to keep an eye on. Many AAS convert to estrogen via the aromatization process. Some AAS are worse than others. Also, estrogen spikes after a cycle. High levels of estrogen leads to gyno, water retention, fat storage etc. Estrogen plays a key role in progesterone related gyno. We either block its receptors with SERMS or reduce its production with AIs. We watch estrogen levels during a cycle and in PCT. Lowering estrogen too much will mess up your blood lipids. Letting it get out of control will cause sides like gyno, water retention etc. Estrogen plays a role in IGF-1 levels, may lower IGF-1 when blocked with a SERM. Estrogen is also beneficial hormone when bulking, promoting higher androgen receptor concentrations (!). It also is beneficial in another way - its supposed to act as an anti-inflammatory - this means blocking or reducing it too much during a heavy bulking cycle can result in injury to joints. Obviously different estrogen levels are desired for different goals, and it is not always good to block its action or its production. Usually, while bulking, estrogen is allowed to rise unless gyno or water retention (leading to high blood pressure) becomes a problem. When cutting and shedding water and lifting a little lighter (contest prep for example) estrogen is usually dropped with an AI. Proper diet and training can help the bad side effects high estrogen can have.

    Progesterone : Its not so much progesterone that we watch, which is actually a healthy hormone, but progestins which may act upon its receptors. Progestins, like Tren or Deca (nor-9's), may act on its receptor or lower progesterone in the blood. Gyno and lactating are more common side effects. Some people use progesterone receptor blockers to combat this, or a prolactin production inhibitor.

    Cortisol : The third hormone, the stress hormone. When elevated to long, it will store fat. Eat muscle. Cause lethargy. Moodiness. You may crave carbs by the boat load. Cortisol spikes after a cycle because AAS blocks it while on cycle, upping cortisol production and receptor sites. IMO not enough attention is payed to this. It has special functions in the body that are absolutely necessary, like its anti-inflamitory ability. However, when elevated for long periods, it turns into a muscle eating beast. The most important time to watch cortisol is after a cycle, when it spikes. There are a couple ways to help control this, explained below.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now that you brushed up on some defentions, here are some useful compounds :


    SERMS (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulation)

    Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) : Nolvadex is a SERM. It selectively binds to certain estrogen receptors, effectively blocking the estrogen and stopping unwanted sides such as gyno. It DOES NOT lower estro levels in the blood, it only blocks it from binding to certain receptors. It also helps your blood fat levels. It does not suppress LH, blocks desired estro receptors and helps stop HCG from desensitizing your testicles to natural LH. Nolva should be used during HCG therapy, at 20 mg a day, for the reason i just mentioned. Can be used during cycle if you see signs of gyno. Its mainly used to block the estrogen spike when you come off cycle, and should be used right through to the end until natural test levels are back. One drawback to consider about Nolva is that it may cause progesterone receptors to become more sensitive. This means that while using progestins such as Deca or Tren, you may become more sensetive to progestin related gyno.

    Faslodex (Fulvestrant) : Approved for use in 2002 for breast cancer research, this drug is unlike most we have seen. It is classified as an estrogen receptor downregulator. It prevents estrogen from exerting its influence on the estrogen receptor. Similar to Nolvadex, but is not selective. It hits all estrogen receptors. It also does this to progesterone receptors to a lesser degree. It is injectable, at 250mg a month. No information on how it affects blood lipids. It is also very expensive.

    Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate) : This drug is also a SERM, almost identicle to Nolva. It is said to be a weaker blocker mg for mg than Nolva. Its common use is in PCT, usually for about a month, used after HCG and all AAS esters have run out of your body. Even though it is weaker than Nolva at blocking, it is believed to be quicker at bringing HPTA back to balance. Both are commonly used during PCT. It binds to different receptors than Nolva. There is a lot of debate on this, but until there is solid proof, it may be prudent to include this in your PCT. Commonly taken at about 100mg a day.

    Fareston (Toremifene Citrate) : This is a second generation SERM. Approved for use in 1997. Chemically very similar to Nolva and Clomid, it is less powerful mg for mg. Fareston may have a stronger posotive effect on your cholesterol levels. For those who find this an important issue, this is a drug of choice. Used every day at around 60mg.

    Evista (raloxifene) : A newer SERM, Evista is shown to be a blocker in breast tissue, but acts as a receptor agonist in bone tissue (unlike Nolvadex). This action promotes bone density. Taken at about 60mg a day. Evista may prove to be very beneficial, as it also helps cholesterol levels (like Nolvadex). Evista is supposed to have a more powerful gyno blocking effect than Nolvadex.

    Cyclofenil : Much like Nolvadex, this is also a SERM. Used at about 600mg a day, it is weaker mg for mg. A good alternative if Nolva is not available, which is usually not the case.


    AI (Aromatase Inhibitors)

    Teslac (Testolactone) : This is a first generation steroidal aromatase inhibitor. Like a suicide, it permanently attaches to the aromatase enzyme. Taked at a maximum of 250mg a day. It is not as strong as the newer AI's, but some people still like to use it. It can lower estrogen about 50%. Streroidal in structure, it has no anabolic effect.

    Aromasin (Exemestane) : This drug is classified as a Type I Suicide AI. It binds to the aromatase enzyme and kills it. It is effective at lowering estrogen up to 85%. Once again, you have to watch out for your cholesterol levels. Used mainly for cutting when low estrogen levels are desired. Aromasin is shown to help bone density. Clinical doses are about 25mg a day, but it has been shown that as little as 2.5mg a day can be as effective.

    Lentaron (Formestane) : A Type I Suicide AI. Lentaron is not classified as a drug, and can be sold over the counter as a suppliment. Not as strong as the third generation AIs (arimidex , femera). Can lower estrogen by about 60%. Used as an injectable, it is dosed at about 250mg every 2 weeks. Due to poor bioavailability, daily doses of oral Lentaron are about 250mg.

    Arimidex (Anastrozole) : This is a widely used type II AI. It competes with estrogen for the aromatase enzyme. This effectively lowers estrogen up to 80% in the blood. Approved for use in 1995 to fight breast cancer. At doses up to 1mg a day, it has been shown to be very effective at controlling estrogen while on cycle or in PCT. It is usefull for curbing the effects that come with aromatizing AAS's while in cycle, and can be used in PCT. Nolvadex is shown to decrease the effectiveness of Arimidex when used together. In this case a suicide inhibitor may be more well suited, like in PCT. It is also called L-dex, in its liquid form.

    Femera (Letrozole) : Letro is a competative Type II AI also. Also farely new compared to other compounds, it is shown to be effective at lowering estrogen by blocking the aromatase enzyme. Doses up to 2.5mg a day are used, but usually as low as .5mg a day can be just as effective. Clinical studies show Femera to lower estrogen by 75-78%, sometimes up to 95%. Once again, watch out for your blood lipids (cholesterol) to get out of whack. There may a noted rebound effect of estrogen levels that goes along with Letro use.


    Cortisol Control

    Cytadren (aminoglutethimide) : This drug has the ability to reduce cortisol at higher doses (1000mg a day), and act as an AI at lower doses (250mg a day). The cortisol effect is shortlived if taken for a number of consecutive days. Can lower estrogen a lot, anbout 90%. The higher dose has a long list of sides. More effective as an AI.

    Mirtazapine :This is used to lower cortisol. Even though it may be effective in cortisol control, Johan has pointed out that it may cause some phycological side effects, like making you feel like a zombie. Here is a pubmed abstract for is effects on cortisol levels, among other things.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...1&dopt=Abstract

    Cytodyne (Phosphatidylserine) : This is also used to lower cortisol, but is only effective in lowering about 30%. There are other ingredients in Cytodyne than Phosphatidylserine. Phosphatidylserine is the only real proven ingredient to lower cortisol, or so ive gathered so far. Effective at 800mg a day of PS as an ingredient.

    Relacore : This over the counter cocktail of herbs and vitamins and minerals is supposed to reduce the amount of cortisol in your blood. I find it chills me out a little, however i read some places that it may raise estrogen. I used it for a bit, however I dont bother any more.

    Vitamin C: At doses of about 1.5 grams a day, can have a lowering effect on elevated cortisol, not to mention its other healthy effects.


    LH Repalacement Therapy - Testosterone Stimulating Drugs

    HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin) : HCG is a replacement for your natural LH (luteinizing hormone). LH is what your body produces to tell your testicles to produce natural testosterone. LH levels drop when using AAS (HPTA suppression). Using HCG while on cycle prevents testicular shrinkage, speeding PCT when the time comes. Using Nolva while using HCG helps stop HCG from de-sensitizing your testicles to natural LH. In my opinion, any decent cycle/PCT should include HCG. It has been suggested to me that HCG can be used throughout a cycle at 500iu E4D, but im unsure of this from practical experience. The most favorable way is to use it in the last couple weeks of your cycle at a higher dose, like 500iu ED. The trick is to end the use of HCG just as the last AAS is running out of your system. So, 3 weeks before the the last ester leaves your blood, you would start the HCG/nolva combo. HCG at about 500iu ED and Nolva 20mg ED. This is done before Nolva/aromasin (for example) PCT starts, and runs about a few weeks longer than the end of the HCG. Always include Nolva with your HCG, they work together well. Be careful not to overdose on HCG and permanently desenstize your testicles to LH. HCG has an active life of about 3 days. Vitamin E is a booster, read the next one :

    Vitamin E : As Anthony Roberts pointed out to me, vitamin E increases the response to HCG. This may be useful in making the low doses of HCG we use more effective at growing back shrunken testicles. Doses can be generally 1000iu a day while using HCG.


    Progesterone Control

    Lilopristone, Onapristone: These are progesterone blockers also, said to be safer and possibly more effective than RU-486 when it comes to progesterone blocking. They were developed after RU-486 in an attempt to make more effective, less harsh drugs to block progesterone.

    Dostinex (Cabergoline), Bromo (Bromocriptine), B-6 : These are used for Deca/Tren gyno sides. This type of gyno is related to progesterone and its receptors. Tren/Deca may act on the progesterone receptor, as they are progestins, and may increase prolactin in the blood (causing lactating). These drugs stop production of prolactin at the pituitary gland. Controlling estrogen levels with an AI also helps here, as progestins themsleves haven't been proven to cause gyno.

    RU-486 (Mifepristone - abortion pill) : This drug has the ability to block estrogen, progesterone AND cortisol. It may or may not be very well tolerated, but I would like to find out more about it, as it is used in the bodybuilding world. In PCT it is used to block cortisol and progesterone. A powerful drug that may turn out to be a good choice, but i need more evidence and feedback from experience useing RU-486. Check out this thread i have going if you would like to learn more about it :
    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=180912


    RI's (5a Reductase Inhibitors)

    Proscar (Finasteride) : This is primarily a Type II 5-alpha blocker. This means that when you are taking a high dose of testosterone, the resulting conversion of test to DHT in certain parts of the body become to high for ones own comfort, mainly hairloss and prostate enlargement. This is where the type II 5a enzymes are mainly found. This will not work against AAS that are already highly androgenic by design, without conversion. AAS like Tren will still exhibit high androgenic properties. Used at doses up to 5mg a day.

    Avodart (Dutasteride) : Like Proscar but newer and more effective at blocking the effects of DHT in not only the scalp and prostate (which are Proscar's main strengths) but also in the skin, effectively reducing acne. This is because Avodart will block both Type I and Type II 5-alpha enzymes, covering more of the problem areas due to DHT. Available in .5mg softgels, this is an effective dose. Approved for use in 2002.


    Fat Burning, Anti-Catabolic

    Clen (Clenbuterol) : Clenbuterol is a bronchodilator. Everyone knows clen is used to burn fat. Why am I listing it here in a PCT thread? Well, for its anti-catabolic properties. Clen may lower the effect of AAS while on cycle, so I personally dont use it while cycling. It does, however, have an effect on cortisol levels. While on cycle, cortisol is not to much of a problem if you eat right. AAS use increases cortisol production, and increases receptor sites. This means that when you finish a cycle, cortisol spikes along with estrogen. This is a part of the "crash" that is often overlooked. People have reported that blocking cortisol in PCT speeds along fat loss. Clen is supposed to have a blocking effect on cortisol. So, along side of its ability to burn fat, it is anti catabolic in it ability to block cortisol until desired hormone levels are achieved in PCT. For me, it makes sense to use clen in PCT until desired hormone levels are achieved, as it also burns away fat in the process.



    SUMMARY and RECOMMENDATIONS

    All AAS can supress the HPTA, even in small doses, thus lowering natural LH. Factors that affect ones ability to recover quickly are genetics, cycle length or steroid type. Some AAS will shut you down hard and fast, some not so bad. Some lucky people can rebound quickly without medications, but many need it to avoid a crash and losing muscle/gaining fat. It is in our best interest to use the appropriate medications in the CORRECT doses to keep sides down (like bloat), grow quickly and keep quality mass when we are done our cycles. Most of us can get away with using 2 or 3 compounds to keep sides to a minimum, rebound quickly, and keep gains we worked hard for. Higher levels of AAS (and therefore higher estrogen/progestins) may require more intense hormone control and heavier PCT. Remember, we are aiming to level out estrogen, progesterone, cortisol and testosterone. In PCT, we are trying to achieve equilibrium of the HPTA, getting FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) and LH (luteinizing hormone) back to normal. Keeping our hard earned gains is obviously our first priority.

    In short, we generally use :

    AI's - While on cycle to "dry up" or lower estrogen because of a persons sensetivity to it (if needed). Used in PCT for the same reason and to help get back to homeostasis. Usually used with a SERM in PCT.

    SERM's - to block estrogen while on cycle (if needed) or to help kickstart the HPTA during PCT (most common use). Usually used with an AI in PCT.

    HCG - To prevent testicular shrinkage during a cycle, or to encourage them to grow back more quickly. Usually used with an AI and SERM in PCT as the last AAS run out of your body, and stopped a few weeks before your SERM and AI.

    Keep in mind these are generally accepted guidelines and everyone has their own preferences. I hope this post helps out, as i wrote it for beginners who are having a hard time searching through the massive amount of info... this thread will be updated as often as i learn something new... feel free to offer suggestions. Enjoy!

    ~DB~
    Very informative, thanks.
    Also, I would like to ask you a question so when you log in again, pls give me a bus.
    Grazie

  8. #88
    littledude is offline New Member
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    if im gunna take 500mg of test e everyweek with 25-50mg of proviron everyday and nolvadex for my pct should i wait till the second or third week of test e to start with proviron so my it overlaps a bit into my pct with nolvadex?

  9. #89
    youngdude is offline New Member
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    No pct after TEST cycle

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    Ok here goes...

    I am starting this thread after tons of reading, and taking advice from the more prominent members from various boards. I just wanted to summarize a bunch of useful threads here, bringing it together in one post and simplifying the popular substances used to control estrogen/progesterone/cortisol and restore natural test levels. Ill go over the compounds briefly, and summarize at the end of the post. A few definitions before you start :

    SERM's (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) : These block certain estrogen receptors, ***ending on the drug, and dont actually lower estrogen in the blood. Estrogen is left to circulate with nowhere to go. Because of this, SERMS have a positive effect on cholesterol levels. They have a negative effect on IGF-1, so if bulking, only take them if totally necessary. They are good at blocking gyno. Commonly used during PCT, and less often used while cycling. A SERM like nolvadex is widely used in PCT to help kickstart the HPTA back to normal function, in conjunction with other beneficial drugs. To learn how this works, please refer to Anthony Roberts PCT in the PCT section.

    AI's (Aromatase Inhibitors) : There are 2 types of AI's. Type I (suicide inhibitor) attaches to the aromatase enzyme and permanently disables it. Type II compete for the enzyme, but dont destroy it. Both are effective at lowering estrogen substantially. Both are commonly used during both cycling and PCT. Used mainly when low estrogen levels are desired, like contest preparation/cutting. Beware that lowering estrogen with strong AI's can have a negative effect on cholesterol levels and low estrogen levels can lead to sore joints, cause your losing estrogens anti-inflammitory effect. Can also have a negative impact on your libido. Estrogen has an important role in mass building and joint health, as noted below where "estrogen" is explained.

    RI's (Reductase Inhibitors) : These drugs stop the conversion of testosterone into DHT wherever 5-alpha reductase enzymes are present. RI's work by blocking the action of the 5-alpha. There are 2 5a's. Type I 5a and Type II 5a. Different RI's block one or both of these 5a's. The main reason someone uses RI's is to stop hairloss. They are common anti hairloss drugs. The problem is, when you block the dht conversion, there are less androgens available and may reduce your gains. Sometimes people report less strength, aggression and drive to train.

    Estrogen : The first hormone we need to keep an eye on. Many AAS convert to estrogen via the aromatization process. Some AAS are worse than others. Also, estrogen spikes after a cycle. High levels of estrogen leads to gyno, water retention, fat storage etc. Estrogen plays a key role in progesterone related gyno. We either block its receptors with SERMS or reduce its production with AIs. We watch estrogen levels during a cycle and in PCT. Lowering estrogen too much will mess up your blood lipids. Letting it get out of control will cause sides like gyno, water retention etc. Estrogen plays a role in IGF-1 levels, may lower IGF-1 when blocked with a SERM. Estrogen is also beneficial hormone when bulking, promoting higher androgen receptor concentrations (!). It also is beneficial in another way - its supposed to act as an anti-inflammatory - this means blocking or reducing it too much during a heavy bulking cycle can result in injury to joints. Obviously different estrogen levels are desired for different goals, and it is not always good to block its action or its production. Usually, while bulking, estrogen is allowed to rise unless gyno or water retention (leading to high blood pressure) becomes a problem. When cutting and shedding water and lifting a little lighter (contest prep for example) estrogen is usually dropped with an AI. Proper diet and training can help the bad side effects high estrogen can have.

    Progesterone : Its not so much progesterone that we watch, which is actually a healthy hormone, but progestins which may act upon its receptors. Progestins, like Tren or Deca (nor-9's), may act on its receptor or lower progesterone in the blood. Gyno and lactating are more common side effects. Some people use progesterone receptor blockers to combat this, or a prolactin production inhibitor.

    Cortisol : The third hormone, the stress hormone. When elevated to long, it will store fat. Eat muscle. Cause lethargy. Moodiness. You may crave carbs by the boat load. Cortisol spikes after a cycle because AAS blocks it while on cycle, upping cortisol production and receptor sites. IMO not enough attention is payed to this. It has special functions in the body that are absolutely necessary, like its anti-inflamitory ability. However, when elevated for long periods, it turns into a muscle eating beast. The most important time to watch cortisol is after a cycle, when it spikes. There are a couple ways to help control this, explained below.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now that you brushed up on some defentions, here are some useful compounds :


    SERMS (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulation)

    Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) : Nolvadex is a SERM. It selectively binds to certain estrogen receptors, effectively blocking the estrogen and stopping unwanted sides such as gyno. It DOES NOT lower estro levels in the blood, it only blocks it from binding to certain receptors. It also helps your blood fat levels. It does not suppress LH, blocks desired estro receptors and helps stop HCG from desensitizing your testicles to natural LH. Nolva should be used during HCG therapy, at 20 mg a day, for the reason i just mentioned. Can be used during cycle if you see signs of gyno. Its mainly used to block the estrogen spike when you come off cycle, and should be used right through to the end until natural test levels are back. One drawback to consider about Nolva is that it may cause progesterone receptors to become more sensitive. This means that while using progestins such as Deca or Tren, you may become more sensetive to progestin related gyno.

    Faslodex (Fulvestrant) : Approved for use in 2002 for breast cancer research, this drug is unlike most we have seen. It is classified as an estrogen receptor downregulator. It prevents estrogen from exerting its influence on the estrogen receptor. Similar to Nolvadex, but is not selective. It hits all estrogen receptors. It also does this to progesterone receptors to a lesser degree. It is injectable, at 250mg a month. No information on how it affects blood lipids. It is also very expensive.

    Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate) : This drug is also a SERM, almost identicle to Nolva. It is said to be a weaker blocker mg for mg than Nolva. Its common use is in PCT, usually for about a month, used after HCG and all AAS esters have run out of your body. Even though it is weaker than Nolva at blocking, it is believed to be quicker at bringing HPTA back to balance. Both are commonly used during PCT. It binds to different receptors than Nolva. There is a lot of debate on this, but until there is solid proof, it may be prudent to include this in your PCT. Commonly taken at about 100mg a day.

    Fareston (Toremifene Citrate) : This is a second generation SERM. Approved for use in 1997. Chemically very similar to Nolva and Clomid, it is less powerful mg for mg. Fareston may have a stronger posotive effect on your cholesterol levels. For those who find this an important issue, this is a drug of choice. Used every day at around 60mg.

    Evista (raloxifene) : A newer SERM, Evista is shown to be a blocker in breast tissue, but acts as a receptor agonist in bone tissue (unlike Nolvadex). This action promotes bone density. Taken at about 60mg a day. Evista may prove to be very beneficial, as it also helps cholesterol levels (like Nolvadex). Evista is supposed to have a more powerful gyno blocking effect than Nolvadex.

    Cyclofenil : Much like Nolvadex, this is also a SERM. Used at about 600mg a day, it is weaker mg for mg. A good alternative if Nolva is not available, which is usually not the case.


    AI (Aromatase Inhibitors)

    Teslac (Testolactone) : This is a first generation steroidal aromatase inhibitor. Like a suicide, it permanently attaches to the aromatase enzyme. Taked at a maximum of 250mg a day. It is not as strong as the newer AI's, but some people still like to use it. It can lower estrogen about 50%. Streroidal in structure, it has no anabolic effect.

    Aromasin (Exemestane) : This drug is classified as a Type I Suicide AI. It binds to the aromatase enzyme and kills it. It is effective at lowering estrogen up to 85%. Once again, you have to watch out for your cholesterol levels. Used mainly for cutting when low estrogen levels are desired. Aromasin is shown to help bone density. Clinical doses are about 25mg a day, but it has been shown that as little as 2.5mg a day can be as effective.

    Lentaron (Formestane) : A Type I Suicide AI. Lentaron is not classified as a drug, and can be sold over the counter as a suppliment. Not as strong as the third generation AIs (arimidex , femera). Can lower estrogen by about 60%. Used as an injectable, it is dosed at about 250mg every 2 weeks. Due to poor bioavailability, daily doses of oral Lentaron are about 250mg.

    Arimidex (Anastrozole) : This is a widely used type II AI. It competes with estrogen for the aromatase enzyme. This effectively lowers estrogen up to 80% in the blood. Approved for use in 1995 to fight breast cancer. At doses up to 1mg a day, it has been shown to be very effective at controlling estrogen while on cycle or in PCT. It is usefull for curbing the effects that come with aromatizing AAS's while in cycle, and can be used in PCT. Nolvadex is shown to decrease the effectiveness of Arimidex when used together. In this case a suicide inhibitor may be more well suited, like in PCT. It is also called L-dex, in its liquid form.

    Femera (Letrozole) : Letro is a competative Type II AI also. Also farely new compared to other compounds, it is shown to be effective at lowering estrogen by blocking the aromatase enzyme. Doses up to 2.5mg a day are used, but usually as low as .5mg a day can be just as effective. Clinical studies show Femera to lower estrogen by 75-78%, sometimes up to 95%. Once again, watch out for your blood lipids (cholesterol) to get out of whack. There may a noted rebound effect of estrogen levels that goes along with Letro use.


    Cortisol Control

    Cytadren (aminoglutethimide) : This drug has the ability to reduce cortisol at higher doses (1000mg a day), and act as an AI at lower doses (250mg a day). The cortisol effect is shortlived if taken for a number of consecutive days. Can lower estrogen a lot, anbout 90%. The higher dose has a long list of sides. More effective as an AI.

    Mirtazapine :This is used to lower cortisol. Even though it may be effective in cortisol control, Johan has pointed out that it may cause some phycological side effects, like making you feel like a zombie. Here is a pubmed abstract for is effects on cortisol levels, among other things.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...1&dopt=Abstract

    Cytodyne (Phosphatidylserine) : This is also used to lower cortisol, but is only effective in lowering about 30%. There are other ingredients in Cytodyne than Phosphatidylserine. Phosphatidylserine is the only real proven ingredient to lower cortisol, or so ive gathered so far. Effective at 800mg a day of PS as an ingredient.

    Relacore : This over the counter cocktail of herbs and vitamins and minerals is supposed to reduce the amount of cortisol in your blood. I find it chills me out a little, however i read some places that it may raise estrogen. I used it for a bit, however I dont bother any more.

    Vitamin C: At doses of about 1.5 grams a day, can have a lowering effect on elevated cortisol, not to mention its other healthy effects.


    LH Repalacement Therapy - Testosterone Stimulating Drugs

    HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin) : HCG is a replacement for your natural LH (luteinizing hormone). LH is what your body produces to tell your testicles to produce natural testosterone. LH levels drop when using AAS (HPTA suppression). Using HCG while on cycle prevents testicular shrinkage, speeding PCT when the time comes. Using Nolva while using HCG helps stop HCG from de-sensitizing your testicles to natural LH. In my opinion, any decent cycle/PCT should include HCG. It has been suggested to me that HCG can be used throughout a cycle at 500iu E4D, but im unsure of this from practical experience. The most favorable way is to use it in the last couple weeks of your cycle at a higher dose, like 500iu ED. The trick is to end the use of HCG just as the last AAS is running out of your system. So, 3 weeks before the the last ester leaves your blood, you would start the HCG/nolva combo. HCG at about 500iu ED and Nolva 20mg ED. This is done before Nolva/aromasin (for example) PCT starts, and runs about a few weeks longer than the end of the HCG. Always include Nolva with your HCG, they work together well. Be careful not to overdose on HCG and permanently desenstize your testicles to LH. HCG has an active life of about 3 days. Vitamin E is a booster, read the next one :

    Vitamin E : As Anthony Roberts pointed out to me, vitamin E increases the response to HCG. This may be useful in making the low doses of HCG we use more effective at growing back shrunken testicles. Doses can be generally 1000iu a day while using HCG.


    Progesterone Control

    Lilopristone, Onapristone: These are progesterone blockers also, said to be safer and possibly more effective than RU-486 when it comes to progesterone blocking. They were developed after RU-486 in an attempt to make more effective, less harsh drugs to block progesterone.

    Dostinex (Cabergoline), Bromo (Bromocriptine), B-6 : These are used for Deca/Tren gyno sides. This type of gyno is related to progesterone and its receptors. Tren/Deca may act on the progesterone receptor, as they are progestins, and may increase prolactin in the blood (causing lactating). These drugs stop production of prolactin at the pituitary gland. Controlling estrogen levels with an AI also helps here, as progestins themsleves haven't been proven to cause gyno.

    RU-486 (Mifepristone - abortion pill) : This drug has the ability to block estrogen, progesterone AND cortisol. It may or may not be very well tolerated, but I would like to find out more about it, as it is used in the bodybuilding world. In PCT it is used to block cortisol and progesterone. A powerful drug that may turn out to be a good choice, but i need more evidence and feedback from experience useing RU-486. Check out this thread i have going if you would like to learn more about it :
    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=180912


    RI's (5a Reductase Inhibitors)

    Proscar (Finasteride) : This is primarily a Type II 5-alpha blocker. This means that when you are taking a high dose of testosterone, the resulting conversion of test to DHT in certain parts of the body become to high for ones own comfort, mainly hairloss and prostate enlargement. This is where the type II 5a enzymes are mainly found. This will not work against AAS that are already highly androgenic by design, without conversion. AAS like Tren will still exhibit high androgenic properties. Used at doses up to 5mg a day.

    Avodart (Dutasteride) : Like Proscar but newer and more effective at blocking the effects of DHT in not only the scalp and prostate (which are Proscar's main strengths) but also in the skin, effectively reducing acne. This is because Avodart will block both Type I and Type II 5-alpha enzymes, covering more of the problem areas due to DHT. Available in .5mg softgels, this is an effective dose. Approved for use in 2002.


    Fat Burning, Anti-Catabolic

    Clen (Clenbuterol) : Clenbuterol is a bronchodilator. Everyone knows clen is used to burn fat. Why am I listing it here in a PCT thread? Well, for its anti-catabolic properties. Clen may lower the effect of AAS while on cycle, so I personally dont use it while cycling. It does, however, have an effect on cortisol levels. While on cycle, cortisol is not to much of a problem if you eat right. AAS use increases cortisol production, and increases receptor sites. This means that when you finish a cycle, cortisol spikes along with estrogen. This is a part of the "crash" that is often overlooked. People have reported that blocking cortisol in PCT speeds along fat loss. Clen is supposed to have a blocking effect on cortisol. So, along side of its ability to burn fat, it is anti catabolic in it ability to block cortisol until desired hormone levels are achieved in PCT. For me, it makes sense to use clen in PCT until desired hormone levels are achieved, as it also burns away fat in the process.



    SUMMARY and RECOMMENDATIONS

    All AAS can supress the HPTA, even in small doses, thus lowering natural LH. Factors that affect ones ability to recover quickly are genetics, cycle length or steroid type. Some AAS will shut you down hard and fast, some not so bad. Some lucky people can rebound quickly without medications, but many need it to avoid a crash and losing muscle/gaining fat. It is in our best interest to use the appropriate medications in the CORRECT doses to keep sides down (like bloat), grow quickly and keep quality mass when we are done our cycles. Most of us can get away with using 2 or 3 compounds to keep sides to a minimum, rebound quickly, and keep gains we worked hard for. Higher levels of AAS (and therefore higher estrogen/progestins) may require more intense hormone control and heavier PCT. Remember, we are aiming to level out estrogen, progesterone, cortisol and testosterone. In PCT, we are trying to achieve equilibrium of the HPTA, getting FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) and LH (luteinizing hormone) back to normal. Keeping our hard earned gains is obviously our first priority.

    In short, we generally use :

    AI's - While on cycle to "dry up" or lower estrogen because of a persons sensetivity to it (if needed). Used in PCT for the same reason and to help get back to homeostasis. Usually used with a SERM in PCT.

    SERM's - to block estrogen while on cycle (if needed) or to help kickstart the HPTA during PCT (most common use). Usually used with an AI in PCT.

    HCG - To prevent testicular shrinkage during a cycle, or to encourage them to grow back more quickly. Usually used with an AI and SERM in PCT as the last AAS run out of your body, and stopped a few weeks before your SERM and AI.

    Keep in mind these are generally accepted guidelines and everyone has their own preferences. I hope this post helps out, as i wrote it for beginners who are having a hard time searching through the massive amount of info... this thread will be updated as often as i learn something new... feel free to offer suggestions. Enjoy!



    ~DB~
    Hey bro quick question. I'm 20 years old and I did a cycle of testosterone around 8 months ago. I Been off for 7 months but was never informed about PCT. Now I have shrunk testicles and low sperm count. (I haven't gone to the doctor) can I take anything such as nolvadex to help bring back my test levels and build my testicles back up? I have a bottle of cyclo bolon and I want to take it. Of course I'm going to do PCT after. But before I do the cyclo do I take the nolvadex to get back on track? Or it wouldn't help me now being it's to late. Any help will do. Thanks

  10. #90
    Drummerboy's Avatar
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    not a q and a here. You can PM me and if i get a chance to answer your q I will. THnx,

    ~D~

  11. #91
    ...aydn...'s Avatar
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    what about primapexole for progesterone control?

  12. #92
    Trunewb is offline New Member
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    So I have a newb q because I am a newb to all this. I just want to see if I have everything sorted out. This is my first cycle and it was suggested to be to do:
    500mg TEST-E - 250/twice a week
    If I see signs of Gyno, Novladex

    PCT - Novladex + Clomid + Tribulus

    I personally just want to know if this is fine for a cycle. I have been researching steroids quite a bit to figure out if I want to do them. So any differences of opinion would be awesome. I am just looking for a safe beginner first time cycle. Thanks guys

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trunewb View Post
    So I have a newb q because I am a newb to all this. I just want to see if I have everything sorted out. This is my first cycle and it was suggested to be to do:
    500mg TEST-E - 250/twice a week
    If I see signs of Gyno, Novladex

    PCT - Novladex + Clomid + Tribulus

    I personally just want to know if this is fine for a cycle. I have been researching steroids quite a bit to figure out if I want to do them. So any differences of opinion would be awesome. I am just looking for a safe beginner first time cycle. Thanks guys
    You might get way more responses if you made your own thread including your full stats.

  14. #94
    Trunewb is offline New Member
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    How can I do that when it says "this forum is not accepting anymore new threads" :/.

  15. #95
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    Did you go here http://forums.steroid.com/forumdispl...NS-amp-ANSWERS and click "post new thread" ?

  16. #96
    BigDawg44 is offline Junior Member
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    Great post cleared up alot of questions i had

  17. #97
    xxlpre is offline New Member
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    i NEEEDDDDD help guys,, the names Pre... i have just purchased some OC labs Var, 100pills... but now im not sure of my dosage i should be taking, or if i need a pct....

    please could some help me out here

    age 25, 1.82meters tall, 92.23kg (big size, but im kinda fatty, chubby if you will)

    Thanks

  18. #98
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    ask ,,,

    hallo all , i just wanna ask about how to use pct on my cycle...anyway i use susatanon250 8ampuls for 4 week ,,,btw what kind i use pct in that short cycle ? and how much the dose i must consume ? and how long i must use pct ??

    i have plan to use susta every 3 month / year ,,so how to use pct ??

    thx

  19. #99
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    very informative! thanks

  20. #100
    reto is offline New Member
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    i woz guna do a 12 week enha and deca cycle iv read a lot about the pct but theres so much to take in wot would be suitable to take for pct after thanx

  21. #101
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    such a killer thread!

  22. #102
    chris39n is offline New Member
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuna11 View Post
    Can anybody give a guy a few suggestions?? I have taken a cycle of primo in the past and neer even did anything about the PCT. So most of my gains went away. Now I am aware of it but still confused a bit. I am in the middle of another primo cycle, and definately gonna do it alittle different when done this cycle. I'm just not sure which to take if you are on a cycle of primo. Is each steroid different when it comes to PCT? Or is there some general PCT that covers most steroids ??

    Thanks

    Rookie

    depends what doses you are running mate,you prob lost gains as estrogen destroyed your gains.but you would wanna run nolva and some clomid.

  23. #103
    Gymjunkie25 is offline New Member
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    Great read Drummerboy - cheers for the info. I have some questions though...

    I am beginning my first ever cycle and have opted for sust250. I need some advice about whether I should be taking a SERM such as Novladex during my cycle (regardless of whether I show sypmtoms of gyno or not) or should I wait till the end of my cycle and 21 days after my last injection should I start taking a SERM such as Novladex as PCT in order to prevent any negative eustrogen related side effects and kickstart my own natural testorone supply into gear? As you said there is a ton of info out there but its hard toi make sense of so Im just looking for some straight forward and simple advice about what is best to do on my first cycle to get the best gains (and keep them) and prevent any damage to my body. I appreciate your help.
    Cheers

  24. #104
    kd81215 is offline New Member
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    I have been running 300mgs a week of test E for about 10 weeks and then bumped it up to 500mgs a week for an additional 10 weeks, I will need to cycle off soon and most of the guys a train with either don't cycle off or have little to no accurate knowledge on proper PCT programs. Can anyone please recommend a proper PCT program for my cycle? This is my first one and I want to make sure that I cycle off correctly. Thanks in advance!

  25. #105
    Jerseyboy2180 is offline New Member
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    Help

    Help
    I just started a test cycle two weeks ago the first week I took 100mgs and the second week I took 200 mgs and now my nipples are hurting I don't feel any lumps can somebody help me with this I would like to know if anybody have had this?
    Last edited by Jerseyboy2180; 08-03-2012 at 06:47 PM.

  26. #106
    Jerseyboy2180 is offline New Member
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    Help
    Help
    I just started a test cycle two weeks ago the first week I took 100 mgs and the second week I took 200mgs and now my nipples are hurting I don't feel any lumps can somebody help me with this I would like to know if anybody have had this?

  27. #107
    Jerseyboy2180 is offline New Member
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    Help
    Help
    I just started a test cycle two weeks ago the first week I took 100 mgs and the second week I took 200mgs and now my nipples are hurting I don't feel any lumps can somebody help me with this I would like to know if anybody have had this?
    Last edited by Jerseyboy2180; Today at 06:04 PM.

  28. #108
    kylef23 is offline New Member
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    Great info thanks!

  29. #109
    chwala is offline New Member
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    nice educative post keep it up

  30. #110
    Bouch's Avatar
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    wow thank you for this post

  31. #111
    rynev33 is offline New Member
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    opinion on torem?

  32. #112
    Brain & Brawn is offline New Member
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    This is my first post, but seeing as how important PCT is, I figured this was a good place to start.

    Thank you for this. I've been doing research on AAS and PCT procedures for the past 3 years, and have gathered as much information as I could. But most of it was contradicting, and when you finally sorted out through all the broscience, the truth was left scattered and difficult to piece together. Needless to say, I have read much of the same as what was on here, but again most of it was not complete. This, although still not "perfect", is wonderful to come across. Thank you for taking the time to gather this information and make it readily available for all. PCT is far too misunderstood I've found, and I myself am still learning new things on the subject constantly.

    Once again, I hope to be a greater part of this community, and learn as much as I can along the way so that I can in turn, help those who will undoubtedly follow suit.

  33. #113
    PeaceMaker is offline New Member
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    Can i take Nolvadex , and OTC, and D-pol (Natural Test booster) for PCT??

  34. #114
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    great post fantastic info

  35. #115
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    Thank you

  36. #116
    greengo is offline Junior Member
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    thank you, amazing post. been searching for a list for PCT that is well explained.

  37. #117
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    Thnx for posting

  38. #118
    mr.liftalot is offline New Member
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    I've tried to post a thread regarding pct but was unable to... said I couldn't mention d r u g s ... but I just named the chemical compounds. I need advice...

  39. #119
    Nathaniel1982 is offline New Member
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    Nice post, thank you. Interesting info about vitamin C. I'm going to get right on that, considering I don't get nearly enough sleep

  40. #120
    beergut75 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    nah the link always comes up when you type pct... ignore that... click the sticky in the PCT forum ignore the hyperlink.
    I'm more confused than ever. I see that you know your stuff and that was a well thought out post. My problem is converting this to how it affects me. What should I use etc.

    There seems to be an abundance of information on this site but it's hard for a newbie to translate this into real life use.

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