SERMs or AIs (or alternative) that don't cause growth plate closure?

**Trillion** · 01-04-2012, 06:56 AM

Alright, I've done a fair deal of research on this and since I'm 20 I've opted for a PH that doesn't aromatize so I won't have any issues with growth plate closure, but after reading some science journals on SERMs and AIs, I've found that these (SERMs in particular) can actually have a negative effect on growth, since they are agonists of estrogen in bone despite being antagonists in breast tissue. AIs are better in this regard (as I understand it) as they actually dramatically slow the production of estrogen, as opposed to simply altering its effects in tissue as SERMs do.

I understand no two SERMs or AIs work in the same exact way, so are there any in particular that would have less of an effect on growth? I understand Letrozole has actually been used in conjunction with testosterone therapy in kids to enhance their final predicted height.

Would one cycle actually even be enough to have any effect on growth plate closure anyway?

Cheers guys

**meathead320** · 01-04-2012, 11:56 AM

If you have not run the PH yet I would hold off on it. If I was only 20 and wanted to be taller I would stay away from steroids , you shouldn't be in that big a hurry to get huge. The only thing I might consider if your growth plates have not yet fused is IGF-1, as that might make you grow taller.

**gymfu** · 01-04-2012, 12:17 PM

Glad to see you are researching and not just diving in, but at your age you should just wait. You don't just have the growth plate issue to worry about, you will damage your HPTA system.

My advise is to just stay away from any hormones of any kind for another 5 years.

Have you researched on dieting? Your diet is everything with or without hormones.

**Trillion** · 01-04-2012, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by gymfu

Glad to see you are researching and not just diving in, but at your age you should just wait. You don't just have the growth plate issue to worry about, you will damage your HPTA system.

My advise is to just stay away from any hormones of any kind for another 5 years.

Have you researched on dieting? Your diet is everything with or without hormones.

I've got the gear but I think I'm gonna hold off for a while anyway and at least get my diet absolutely set. What's the shelf life on these things? I've been working on it now for a little while making improvements here and there as I was eating quite badly and hit a wall before I messed with it. When you say HPTA you basically mean my hormones, right? Is my endocrine system more vulnerable because I'm younger or would I be affected in the same way as someone say 35 or 40?

I also got a blood test done as I was feeling quite down for a while and wondered if this might have been down to low testosterone (also wanted to get figures so I could check them again after the course), but the doc tells me it's all normal. I don't know what the numbers are yet, and I hear that doctors generally think having the testosterone level of a 90 year old man is normal, as it falls within the broad spectrum. I'm gonna go down later this week and pick up a copy of the report.

Thanks for the replies

**meathead320** · 01-04-2012, 01:40 PM

Some younger guys get low test simply from training too hard, too often, and not getting enough food or sleep. Don't overtrain and under eat/sleep. That is an easy recipe for low testosterone .

**Trillion** · 01-04-2012, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by meathead320

Some younger guys get low test simply from training too hard, too often, and not getting enough food or sleep. Don't overtrain and under eat/sleep. That is an easy recipe for low testosterone.

I normally take about 4-5 days to recover after a solid workout.. some of my muscles don't ever hurt though so that makes me question whether they're getting it or not. My triceps never seem to hurt the next day no matter what I put them through. I usually just muscles when they're fully recovered but right now I'm on a 3 day a week program as any more and I find I'm not fully recovered by the next workout. I'll get the figures for my test and post back here afterwards. As I say, I'll probably hold off regardless of what the numbers come back as, but would one cycle really cause premature growth plate closure? I haven't actually grown much in the last 2-3 years but I want to fill out completely and get the most out of my frame.

**gymfu** · 01-04-2012, 07:59 PM

Honestly I doubt at 20 your growth plates aren't sealed, you are most likely done growing. The problem with cycling is the damage to your HPTA (hypothalamus pituitary testicular axis) this is your bodies mechanism for upregulating and downregulating your testosterone . It's all a bit complicated but your body uses different hormones to tell the testies to produce more testosterone when levels fall and stop producing when levels are high. When you use AAS you are artificially supplying testosterone or what your body considers testosterone, this causes your body to drasticly downregulate testosterone production. When you are young, under 25, putting your body though this will almost certainly cause unrepairable damage to your body's ability to produce normal levels of testosterone . You won't be able to tell what damage you did untill you get older, thats why young guys run around saying that cycling is not a problem.

Wait till your 25. I would sell or throw away your pro hormones, they aren't a good choice anyway, your better off using the real thing, AAS.

Deffinatly get that diet worked out, you won't believe the difference it makes.

You are absolutly right about the medical community's view of testosterone, they say the range is 250-1000 ng/dl.
You need the number, if your below 500 at 20 you have a problem. Should be much higher, let us know what it is when you get it.
gl

**Trillion** · 01-05-2012, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by gymfu

Honestly I doubt at 20 your growth plates aren't sealed, you are most likely done growing. The problem with cycling is the damage to your HPTA (hypothalamus pituitary testicular axis) this is your bodies mechanism for upregulating and downregulating your testosterone . It's all a bit complicated but your body uses different hormones to tell the testies to produce more testosterone when levels fall and stop producing when levels are high. When you use AAS you are artificially supplying testosterone or what your body considers testosterone, this causes your body to drasticly downregulate testosterone production. When you are young, under 25, putting your body though this will almost certainly cause unrepairable damage to your body's ability to produce normal levels of testosterone . You won't be able to tell what damage you did untill you get older, thats why young guys run around saying that cycling is not a problem.

Wait till your 25. I would sell or throw away your pro hormones, they aren't a good choice anyway, your better off using the real thing, AAS.

Deffinatly get that diet worked out, you won't believe the difference it makes.

You are absolutly right about the medical community's view of testosterone, they say the range is 250-1000 ng/dl.
You need the number, if your below 500 at 20 you have a problem. Should be much higher, let us know what it is when you get it.
gl

I've just had a chance to talk to the receptionist (who obviously isn't medically qualified) over the phone and she gave me a reading of 16.4, though I'm not sure what unit it's in. I'm guessing it's nmol/L, as this converts to 473 ng/dL.. which is low. What should I do? I'll go and actually retrieve the copy later this week because she may have made a mistake.. Still, if this is the actual reading then I can bet my doctor won't want to treat me with anything or do anything about it, as it doesn't fall below that 250 mark. What should I say to him?

Also, could this figure be on the low side because of my poor sleep pattern? On that particular night I slept well. Or perhaps that I'm a naturally skinny guy and I've put on a fair amount of fat due to eating heavy (6'0 and 145lbs before, and now 6'0 200lbs, maybe 15%+ body fat)Also, I have no problems with libido or ED, just I lately feel quite low in mood and lack motivation.

**meathead320** · 01-05-2012, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Trillion

I've just had a chance to talk to the receptionist (who obviously isn't medically qualified) over the phone and she gave me a reading of 16.4, though I'm not sure what unit it's in. I'm guessing it's nmol/L, as this converts to 473 ng/dL.. which is low. What should I do? I'll go and actually retrieve the copy later this week because she may have made a mistake.. Still, if this is the actual reading then I can bet my doctor won't want to treat me with anything or do anything about it, as it doesn't fall below that 250 mark. What should I say to him?

Also, could this figure be on the low side because of my poor sleep pattern? On that particular night I slept well. Or perhaps that I'm a naturally skinny guy and I've put on a fair amount of fat due to eating heavy (6'0 and 145lbs before, and now 6'0 200lbs, maybe 15%+ body fat)Also, I have no problems with libido or ED, just I lately feel quite low in mood and lack motivation.

For sure that will have a major effect.

Have you gained fat around your midsection while bulking? Even a few pounds of excess belly fat can cut your testosterone levels in half too. Don't diet too hard too fast, as for natural guys who drop calories too low that also hurts testosterone production.

They keye is a healthy diet and balance without overdoing anything.

**gymfu** · 01-05-2012, 08:17 PM

I would talk to the doctor but he's going to say it's with in range and it is, just too low for your age. Reasearch on how to bring up testosterone naturaly, just google how to raise natural testosterone. Then get retested hopefully you can get that up naturaly.

yes sleep is very important.

**Trillion** · 01-05-2012, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by meathead320

For sure that will have a major effect.

Have you gained fat around your midsection while bulking? Even a few pounds of excess belly fat can cut your testosterone levels in half too. Don't diet too hard too fast, as for natural guys who drop calories too low that also hurts testosterone production.

They keye is a healthy diet and balance without overdoing anything.

Yep, you got it, all the flab is on my belly, my arms and legs are reasonably defined and definitely a lot bigger, but not because of fat. My belly however is significantly larger and that's where all the flab is. How can a few pounds around there cut t in half?

Do you guys think this is a genetic problem or something that I've caused through lifestyle habits? At the time I had my test taken, my diet wasn't perfect either. My night-day cycle is very poor as I work all sorts of varying hours so I have to be able to adapt in an instant. I DO always get a good amount of sleep though. Could this broken pattern, despite getting a good amount of sleep, be the cause? As I say, I'm naturally fairly skinny (with some muscle), very competitive, a risk taker, and have a high libido. I haven't noticed a drop in libido though since I started hitting the gym though.. is it possibly my t levels have declined but my libido is still in order?

This is interesting stuff guys, really, thanks for the tips.. it's not nice to have to think about T therapy. Is it really possible to boost T levels by double just through losing a little flab around the stomach and sleeping well?

EDIT*

Guys, I believe the night/day prior to the blood test I actually had to force myself to stay awake so I'd get enough sleep the night before the test, so I was probably up for about 24 (possibly more) hours before getting 10 hours or so of sleep before the blood test that morning. Not sure how clear that is so say the test was on Wednesday morning at 10AM, I was up from 10PM on Monday right through Tuesday morning, afternoon and evening, and went to bed on Tuesday at 10PM before getting 10 hours of sleep and waking up at 8 in the morning.

**Trillion** · 01-06-2012, 05:09 AM

Just got off the phone to my doctor. As expected he's not going to do anything about the levels. He also told me everything was normal except my liver enzymes.. they came back as reading significantly higher than normal. Could be from all the protein shakes though, I don't drink much. Any possible relationship here?

**meathead320** · 01-06-2012, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Trillion

Yep, you got it, all the flab is on my belly, my arms and legs are reasonably defined and definitely a lot bigger, but not because of fat. My belly however is significantly larger and that's where all the flab is. How can a few pounds around there cut t in half?

Do you guys think this is a genetic problem or something that I've caused through lifestyle habits? At the time I had my test taken, my diet wasn't perfect either. My night-day cycle is very poor as I work all sorts of varying hours so I have to be able to adapt in an instant. I DO always get a good amount of sleep though. Could this broken pattern, despite getting a good amount of sleep, be the cause? As I say, I'm naturally fairly skinny (with some muscle), very competitive, a risk taker, and have a high libido. I haven't noticed a drop in libido though since I started hitting the gym though.. is it possibly my t levels have declined but my libido is still in order?

This is interesting stuff guys, really, thanks for the tips.. it's not nice to have to think about T therapy. Is it really possible to boost T levels by double just through losing a little flab around the stomach and sleeping well?

EDIT*

Guys, I believe the night/day prior to the blood test I actually had to force myself to stay awake so I'd get enough sleep the night before the test, so I was probably up for about 24 (possibly more) hours before getting 10 hours or so of sleep before the blood test that morning. Not sure how clear that is so say the test was on Wednesday morning at 10AM, I was up from 10PM on Monday right through Tuesday morning, afternoon and evening, and went to bed on Tuesday at 10PM before getting 10 hours of sleep and waking up at 8 in the morning.

Belly fat produces and increases the aromatase enzyme which converts testosterone into estradiol, and the added estradiol then tells your hypothalamus to produce less LH and FSH, which in turn lowers the amount of testosterone you produce in the first place.

So lose the fat, but don't go overboard trying to do it too fast. 30 - 60 minutes cardio each morning on an empty stomach, and eat a normal balanced diet.

You don't need heap loads of protein either, that stuff is pushed by the muscle mags a little too much, eat plenty of meat, but you don't need to get silly with it.

Anything you do to an extreme tends to have a negative effect on natural testosterone. I think the only supps anyone needs (unless they are a competitive bodybuilder) is a decent multivitamin, which they can take EOD (as daily can sometimes be too much vitamins) and fish oil caps 2x ED.

I'm assuming all you really want is bigger muscles, and a good sex life right? You don't need TRT, you just need better sleep, some morning cardio, and balanced meals, and good workouts in the gym that don't go to the extreme.

**Trillion** · 01-06-2012, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by meathead320

Belly fat produces and increases the aromatase enzyme which converts testosterone into estradiol, and the added estradiol then tells your hypothalamus to produce less LH and FSH, which in turn lowers the amount of testosterone you produce in the first place.

So lose the fat, but don't go overboard trying to do it too fast. 30 - 60 minutes cardio each morning on an empty stomach, and eat a normal balanced diet.

You don't need heap loads of protein either, that stuff is pushed by the muscle mags a little too much, eat plenty of meat, but you don't need to get silly with it.

Anything you do to an extreme tends to have a negative effect on natural testosterone. I think the only supps anyone needs (unless they are a competitive bodybuilder) is a decent multivitamin, which they can take EOD (as daily can sometimes be too much vitamins) and fish oil caps 2x ED.

I'm assuming all you really want is bigger muscles, and a good sex life right? You don't need TRT, you just need better sleep, some morning cardio, and balanced meals, and good workouts in the gym that don't go to the extreme.

Yep, pretty much. Despite the low T findings, BB has been pretty much the best thing I've done with myself. Most things I drop pretty quickly as I lose interest, but with BB everything keeps getting better. Originally I started out just doing a bit here and there but I gradually got more and more religious with it, and now I've fixed my diet I can say I feel a lot better overall (no more lack of energy), and I'm a lot stronger in the gym. As I say, my sex life is pretty much the same as it was 8-9 months ago when I started, and I have no problems getting it up. Obviously if my T is low things could be better though, so I'll work on getting this excess fat off now. I'm guessing most of it has come from a previously poor diet (I'd eat at Mcdonalds a lot & drink lots of those weight gainer shakes with malodextrin as carbs thinking it would be enough).

Will I be able to lose the midsection while still gaining muscle or should I do a cutting phase and then start over? I don't like the idea of losing muscle currently and I know that this can happen with a cutting phase. Do you think I can double my T by getting better sleep, losing the fat and eating better (already doing)?

Cheers

**meathead320** · 01-08-2012, 09:58 AM

Doing those healthy things will help your T go back up. Keep in mind that anything you do to the extreme will hurt your Testosterone production, and that includes cutting too hard too fast. Most guys who do the drastic cuts are also using AAS, so they don't have to deal with the muscle loss and low T levels of a natural guys who cuts his calories back too far.

If its just a bit of extra fat, then I suggest morning empty stomach cardio if possible, regardless of when you do it, do at least 30 but no more than 60 minutes a day. For natural T production you still need some carbs, some fats etc... So I would not do anything zero carb. You can cut out junk food alltogether though. You don't need pizza, icecream, soda, beer, and high sugar weight gainer supps to make healthy levels of testosterone , and taking the crap out of eating habbits is never bad.

**Trillion** · 01-09-2012, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by meathead320

Doing those healthy things will help your T go back up. Keep in mind that anything you do to the extreme will hurt your Testosterone production, and that includes cutting too hard too fast. Most guys who do the drastic cuts are also using AAS, so they don't have to deal with the muscle loss and low T levels of a natural guys who cuts his calories back too far.

If its just a bit of extra fat, then I suggest morning empty stomach cardio if possible, regardless of when you do it, do at least 30 but no more than 60 minutes a day. For natural T production you still need some carbs, some fats etc... So I would not do anything zero carb. You can cut out junk food alltogether though. You don't need pizza, icecream, soda, beer, and high sugar weight gainer supps to make healthy levels of testosterone, and taking the crap out of eating habbits is never bad.

Sounds good, I'll check back here and update you all when I'm down on the fat. I was diagnosed with ADD a couple of months ago, (characterized by a lack of dopamine.. meaning high prolactin and possible low t levels) so I wonder if this could have any effect on my test levels.

Cheers for the replies guys.

**Userat204** · 01-13-2012, 12:22 PM

473ng/dl is not low. Just because you are 20 doesnt mean you should be at 600-1100. Everyone is different and that scale is just a general reference range of the average group of guys.

Saying at 473 you have low T is not conclusive. Symptoms IMO are more important in a diagnosis than the number from one lab rest. Did you have blood drawn first thing in the morning? There are a number of things that can effect hormone levels on a daily basis so the numbers will vary. You really need another test to confirm that's your TT number but there are not many docs around who would look at a 20 yr old with above 450 TT as hypogonadal. Now I have seen older men with a total T similar to yours diagnosed as hypogonadal, they were experiencing symptoms of low T but also previously had a TT of > 600ng/dl so they had a pretty drastic decline in T levels.

I would be very careful using a ph at your age anyway. I've seen guys use a ph that was not supposed to aromatize and ended up with gyno. I'm sure there is info around on which would not aromatize. I think you realize that growth plate closure comes as a result of estrogen and there are docs working with. Some kids at young ages using AI's to prolong that but there is a lot of testing and monitoring that goes into that.

I would assume that at 20 yours are most likely closed, and as mentioned in an above post, hpta suppression should be your main concern here. At your age, Hoya may not be fully mature and you could put yourself at risk for a number of issues. I would suggest waiting a few more years.

**meathead320** · 01-16-2012, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Trillion

Sounds good, I'll check back here and update you all when I'm down on the fat. I was diagnosed with ADD a couple of months ago, (characterized by a lack of dopamine.. meaning high prolactin and possible low t levels) so I wonder if this could have any effect on my test levels.

Cheers for the replies guys.

ADD huh?

Do you eat enough saturated fat? They are not as bad for you traditional info seems to imply.

I had low T for years, and eventually hopped on the TRT bandwagon, and am now attempting to come off, because I believe my low test was really due to too little saturated fats and too mugh high GI carbs for years.

That means me excluding more calories from sugar and high GI carbs, to make room for more calories from fat. This is not zero carb however, just low, and lots of frut and veggies. My TRT doc wants his patients to try it from now on before writing a script for TRT. He offered to just let me stay on test, as I've been on for a few years. Still I'm going to attempt a PCT and those diet changes myself to see if I can make it work.

Something about too much refined carbs killing testosterone , and animal fats being the building blocks of testosterone, and not as bad for our health as previously thought.