PCT Start Times Thread is Incorrect

**Reefers** · 02-06-2012, 04:48 AM

The half life of testosterone enanthate is around 6 or 7 days depending on the person. You have to understand how half life works to know how much test enanthate you'll have in your system after your last pin.

I chose 1 drug (test e) at 500mg every 7 days, for 70 days.

Day 1: 500mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 2: 452.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 3: 410.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 4: 371.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 5: 336.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 6: 304.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 7: 276mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 8: 750mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 9: 679.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 10: 615.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 11: 557.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 12: 504.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 13: 457.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 14: 414mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 15: 875mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 16: 792.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 17: 717.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 18: 650.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 19: 588.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 20: 533.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 21: 483mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 22: 937.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 23: 849.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 24: 769.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 25: 696.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 26: 630.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 27: 571.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 28: 517.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 29: 968.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 30: 877.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 31: 794.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 32: 719.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 33: 651.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 34: 590.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 35: 534.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 36: 984.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 37: 891.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 38: 807.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 39: 731.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 40: 662.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 41: 600mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 42: 543.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 43: 992.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 44: 898.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 45: 813.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 46: 737.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 47: 667.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 48: 604.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 49: 547.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 50: 996.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 51: 902.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 52: 817.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 53: 740mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 54: 670.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 55: 607.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 56: 549.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 57: 998.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 58: 904mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 59: 818.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 60: 741.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 61: 671.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 62: 608.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 63: 551mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 64: 999.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 65: 904.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 66: 819.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 67: 742.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 68: 672.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 69: 609mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 70: 551.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 71: 999.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 72: 905.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 73: 819.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 74: 742.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 75: 672.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 76: 609.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 77: 551.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 78: 499.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 79: 452.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 80: 409.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 81: 371.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 82: 336.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 83: 304.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 84: 275.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 85: 249.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 86: 226.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 87: 204.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 88: 185.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 89: 168.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 90: 152.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 91: 138mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 92: 125mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 93: 113.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T - Start PCT
Day 94: 102.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T - PCT
Day 95: 92.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T - PCT
Day 96: 84.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T - PCT

If you followed the 14 day recommendation for test e in the sticky, you would still have 250mg of exogenous testosterone in your system.

Taken from the website:

Why does it tell me to start my PCT so late?
That is a good question as I wondered this the very first time I calculated one of my cycles. The build-up of exogenous(injected) testosterone causes a back-log of testosterone waiting to be de-esterified. The more you increase your dosage and/or dosing frequency, the longer it is going to take for the testosterone to clear your system.

Most people start their PCT too early and wonder why they feel like complete shit after finishing their PCT. It is because they began their PCT when they were still suppressed, possibly even finishing PCT while there was still exogenous testosterone suppressing natural production.

This is why you should stop any long esters by about 30 days before the end of your desired cycle length. You should then replace them with a short ester such as propionate so that you can gradually lower your testosterone levels down. Upon total discontinuation of injections, you can begin PCT in a relatively short timespan, as opposed to waiting several weeks had you not tapered with a short ester.

Why does it recommend starting PCT when esterfied levels hit 100mg?
It was determined from Table 2 of Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men that 100mg results in a negligible change from base testosterone levels in men. So when esterified levels dropped below this point, endogenous testosterone production would resume.

The calculator would recommend three weeks instead of the two recommended in the sticky.

**Gym_** · 02-06-2012, 04:57 AM

How long did it take you to work all that out ?

**Reefers** · 02-06-2012, 06:08 AM

I personally did not work out anything. There's a link a few lines down in the first post; I think you missed it.

**Swifto** · 02-06-2012, 04:37 PM

There are a number of factors that influence PCT start times...

- Dose.

E.g. The start time for 250mg/wk Test Enan is going to be sooner than 1000mg/wk

- Duration

E.g. Androgen levels will build over time due to the ester not clearing and the user administering another shot during this peroid

- Individual/Genetics/Age

E.g. Not everyone synthesises testosterone at the same rate (ester clearence).

Test Enan peak TT at aorun 4-5 days after a single 250mg/ml shot, TT levels then begin to fall.

14 days is a rough estimate and this number will change due to the above variables.

There is certainly no harm in starting PCT TOO EARLY, but there problems become evident when PCT starts TOO LATE.

**MickeyKnox** · 02-06-2012, 04:50 PM

Interesting. If you look at the peak on day 8 and count seven days forward consecutively, you'll notice the "peak" is consistently higher - starts around 750 and peaks around 999. So, Duration is most definitely a factor.

**Lemonada8** · 02-07-2012, 04:43 PM

one thing you also have to consider is the amount of actual testosterone you get from a mg of test e. you dont actually get 500mg of test in 500mg of test e. So the accumulation of test isnt that high.

**Noles12** · 02-07-2012, 04:57 PM

I would prefer starting my PCT too early rather than too late. As others have said there are many factors that affect the timing but the 2 weeks is a suggestion. I feel i would rather recommend 2 weeks over 3 or 4 due to the negative impact more time may have on an individual

**ajordana** · 02-07-2012, 05:12 PM

good read on the half lives, but agreed that starting a little too early would be better than too late, as long as natural test production resumes as quickly as possible and is in effect when the half life has worn out and test is gone, and production is back optimal asap, then it would be much preferred over waiting a whole month to start, and it have been cleared sooner and feeling awful during the gap..

**Reefers** · 02-07-2012, 08:08 PM

Hmm. I have an interesting idea. Lets say you use Nolva...

Instead of doing 20/20/10/10 like normal, starting at 21 days like the calculator says, start at day 14 and run nolva at 10/20/20/10/10.

**Reefers** · 02-07-2012, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

one thing you also have to consider is the amount of actual testosterone you get from a mg of test e. you dont actually get 500mg of test in 500mg of test e. So the accumulation of test isnt that high.

Dude, enter a significantly lower dose of test to compensate for what your saying, and run the calculator. It only changes by a few days at most.

**Noles12** · 02-07-2012, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by Reefers

Hmm. I have an interesting idea. Lets say you use Nolva...

Instead of doing 20/20/10/10 like normal, starting at 21 days like the calculator says, start at day 14 and run nolva at 10/20/20/10/10.

Why? If you are going to start at day 14 why not just run the normal course and not add more possible fluctuation in blood levels by tapering like that. I feel that 10 mgs of Nolva is not enough and it should be run at 20 mgs the entire way through PCT

**Lemonada8** · 02-07-2012, 11:10 PM

I don't know what calculator ur refering to but I can say with some confidence that if you inject 500mg of test e every week (which is the Half life) there is NO way you will get up to 900mg of test in your body at once, also it's not all bio available at once so those numbers are very misleading.
The test will stabilize around ~400mg a week on a 500mg test e/week cycle.
Waiting 2 weeks for pct is perfect for a 500mg of test/week because after the first week it's down to 250 then the next week down to 125 which is a basic trt dose (100mg/week)
When you get into higher doses then it would be acceptable to wait longer.
Also test e is like what 60% actual test? So that brings the value lower than what you think you are actually injecting

**Noles12** · 02-07-2012, 11:22 PM

By the way looking at your numbers in your calculator, they appear to be off. Where exactly did you come up with this?

From what i calculated, two weeks after you will be around 110 mgs

**Reefers** · 02-09-2012, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

I don't know what calculator ur refering to but I can say with some confidence that if you inject 500mg of test e every week (which is the Half life) there is NO way you will get up to 900mg of test in your body at once, also it's not all bio available at once so those numbers are very misleading.
The test will stabilize around ~400mg a week on a 500mg test e/week cycle.
Waiting 2 weeks for pct is perfect for a 500mg of test/week because after the first week it's down to 250 then the next week down to 125 which is a basic trt dose (100mg/week)
When you get into higher doses then it would be acceptable to wait longer.
Also test e is like what 60% actual test? So that brings the value lower than what you think you are actually injecting

The amount of test is your system is compounding.

mgDL = mgD * (1/2)^(D/HL)

where

mgDL= mg of the depot left if your system
mgD= mg of the compound in the depot
D= days
HL= half life

Lets say you do 500mg once a week. Test enanthate has a half life of 4-9 days. Lets say 7 (The half life of test e is NOT 10.5 days. Look it up).

500mg * (0.5)^(8/7) = 226.4mg

So on day 8, when you inject another 500mg, you will have, at that point, 226.4mg PLUS 500mg = 726.4mg.

726.4 * (0.5)^(8/7) = 328.9mg

On day 15, when you inject another 500mg, you will have 500mg + 328.9mg = 828.9mg.

828.9mg * (0.5)^(8/7) = 375.4mg

So on day 22, when you inject another 500mg, you will have 500mg + 375.4mg = 875mg in your body.

You see where this is going. You're wrong.

Also, my link was removed. Just google "PCT calculator" and its one of the first links.

**Lemonada8** · 02-09-2012, 12:57 PM

You forgot one important issue, that test e isnt immediately active in the body. Its not like other drugs where they have long half lives which correspond to extended action. Test has a short life once its used because you are replacing a natural hormone in the body. So all of those numbers on inject days you have to divide in half.
so using your example:
also fyi, you inject every 7 days so it would be 7/7 not 8/7. make the math simpler

Day 1: 500mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 2: 452.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 3: 410.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 4: 371.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 5: 336.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 6: 304.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 7: 276mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 8: 750mg T, 0mg E/D/T - Used test = 250
Day 9: 679.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 10: 615.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 11: 557.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 12: 504.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 13: 457.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 14: 414mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 15: 875mg T, 0mg E/D/T used test = 350
Day 16: 792.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 17: 717.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 18: 650.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 19: 588.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 20: 533.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 21: 483mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 22: 937.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T used test = 437.5
Day 23: 849.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 24: 769.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 25: 696.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 26: 630.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 27: 571.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 28: 517.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 29: 968.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T used test = 468.75
Day 30: 877.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 31: 794.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 32: 719.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 33: 651.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 34: 590.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 35: 534.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 36: 984.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T used test = 484.4
Day 37: 891.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 38: 807.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 39: 731.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 40: 662.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 41: 600mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 42: 543.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 43: 992.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T used test = 492.2
Day 44: 898.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 45: 813.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 46: 737.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 47: 667.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 48: 604.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 49: 547.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 50: 996.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T used test = 496.1
Day 51: 902.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 52: 817.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 53: 740mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 54: 670.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 55: 607.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 56: 549.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 57: 998.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T used test = 498.05
Day 58: 904mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 59: 818.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 60: 741.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 61: 671.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 62: 608.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 63: 551mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 64: 999.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T used test 499.55
Day 65: 904.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 66: 819.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 67: 742.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 68: 672.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 69: 609mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 70: 551.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 71: 999.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T used test 499.8
Day 72: 905.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 73: 819.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 74: 742.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 75: 672.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 76: 609.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 77: 551.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 78: 499.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T used test = 499.8
Day 79: 452.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 80: 409.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 81: 371.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 82: 336.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 83: 304.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 84: 275.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 85: 249.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T used test = 249.9 Begin pct here
Day 86: 226.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 87: 204.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 88: 185.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 89: 168.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 90: 152.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 91: 138mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 92: 125mg T, 0mg E/D/T used test 125... and 1 week in pct.

as you can see you begin your PCT when you are at normal levels of hormone in the body, the week you begin PCT your body uses 125mg of the test e from the cycle which is a normal dose for test repla***ent. And yes its not a straight line, it is a curved line so at the beginning of the week ur test is higher than later on, but regardless it still stands there on an average of 125mg of test e that last week (aka first week of pct) and since the 125 is an average of the test used, and at the start of the week its higher then it HAS to be lower than that at the end of the week, so in that week you dip below normal values for testosterone in the body. Thats the week that pct starts because thats when your test values drop below normal.

where did i say the half life of test e is 10.5 days? and since you know 'how to use half lives' do you know the actual defination? its for 50% of the population to remove 50% of the compound. So its varies largely... hence why injecting 250mg 2x a week is recommended.

so, your wrong. And dont go copying someone elses work on a pct calculator while not thoroughly understanding it.

**Reefers** · 02-09-2012, 02:56 PM

ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172/T2.expansion.html

The above is a table of test levels in the blood for people who were injected with various amounts of testosterone enanthate . At week 16, the group who received 125mg per week had test levels slightly ABOVE baseline. So that last week that you quoted me above, when you said 125mg of test was used... The test levels in the blood are still above "normal."

So according to you, you would start PCT when you still had test levels above baseline.

**Reefers** · 02-09-2012, 03:07 PM

Also, you naturally produce around, what, 75mg of test a week naturally? If you have 125mg released in a week thats above baseline.

**Lemonada8** · 02-09-2012, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Reefers

ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172/T2.expansion.html

The above is a table of test levels in the blood for people who were injected with various amounts of testosterone enanthate . At week 16, the group who received 125mg per week had test levels slightly ABOVE baseline. So that last week that you quoted me above, when you said 125mg of test was used... The test levels in the blood are still above "normal."

So according to you, you would start PCT when you still had test levels above baseline.

I already answered that issue above.

d since the 125 is an average of the test used, and at the start of the week its higher then it HAS to be lower than that at the end of the week, so in that week you dip below normal values for testosterone in the body. Thats the week that pct starts because thats when your test values drop below normal.

And yes, its 'slightly' above normal... from a weekly average POV. yet its not a straight line, its actually a curved line, going down faster at the beginning of the week... So yes the first few days of PCT you would have a 'normal' amount of test in the system for a few days but then it would dip below normal production... and while in pct you are taking SERMs which basically enhance natural production by modulating the feedback system you are 'primed' to restart test making.

and btw... the 'above normal' wasnt significantly different... via the P value Not less than .05... pretty much blows that arguement out of the water.