Pituitary Tumor or just normal pct results???

[jomamma007]

So I thought I'd post this here as I got flamed for posting it in the TRT section.

Hey guys, I was always a late bloomer and didn't start puberty until about 16, it ran in the family being late bloomers. I'm currently 21 and still experiencing changes in my body all the time. Anyways I have done two cycles since the age of 19. I was bascially on gear from 19-21, i took breaks but not long enough to fully recover(6 week PCT then back on), and was also on hormone therapy for a bit since my natty test levels were low. Now I'm coming off a cycle and these are my blood results 5 weeks after completion of PCT
which was
nolvadex week1-6 30/30/30/30/30/30
clomid-100/100/50/25
Anyways my doctor told me my blood work indicates a possible pituitary tumor so I'm being referred to an endocronologist soon.

Testosterone 1119(348-1197)
Free Testosterone 16.5(9.3-26.5)
FSH-9.7(1.5-12.4)
TSH-1.720(.450-4.500)
Free T4 1.47(.82-1.77)
Prolactin 9.3(4-15.2)
[B]LH 13.1 HIGH (1.7-8.6)
Estrogen, Total- 94(40-115), previous 2 blood test I had e2 tested and I was 42.3(7.6-42.6)
SHBG- 73.8 HIGH(16.5-55.9)

So I take it the SHBG is eating up my free test, and my estrogen is on the higher side. Besides for those results my WBC, white blood cell count, went from 6.9 3 weeks ago to 5.1 and now its at 4.1 which is worrying me a bit because I've been sick but I'm under the assumption that WBC rises when you have a cold. Also I've had 4 blood test results, 2weeks after pct, 3 weeks, 4 weeks, and 5 weeks, and my testosterone continues to rise each time I test. I had the last test at 1pm so I'm sure if I would have had them early in the morning my test levels could have been HIGH as well. Also my testicles hurt a bit during PCT but that was normaly for me, but for the last two weeks they've been hurting once again, I found a correlation between taking energy supplements and then have my testicles hurt pretty soon afterwards, but even since stopping they are still aching a few times a day. I'm hoping that it's just my testicles turning on hard because they've been off so long and I will finish up puberty and all but I could just be fooling myself and it could be a very serious problem. Obviously you guys can't really give me an answer, but any input on what's going on? Because 5 weeks after pct my LH still shouldn't be elevated from the nolva correct>?

[kelkel]

No one can really say how long it will take your system to find homeostasis. You've been on a long time for such a young and still developing HPTA so who knows what actual damage you may have done. With high estrogen levels your shbg will also naturally rise. Just like E follows T it also follows shbg.

I assume your doctor is fully aware of your aas usage? Your high LH gives rise to a possible feedback problem. Meaning it's over producing in effort to get the desired result and the testies aren't as responsive as they should be. Normally high LH/FSH and low T levels would indicate primary failure, but your T levels are sound. Therefore it sounds prudent to obtain an MRI and rule in or out pituitary issues before you move forward.

[Lemonada8]

Its doubtful you have a pit tumor due to the other hormones in the pit being normal, and only LH being out of range... but still best to be on the safe side and see the endocrinologist.

elevated estrogen will increase your SHBG level, which looks like is binding to the test to bring your free test level down. but with your previous test, it still looks like ur estrogen was high then also...

did you use HCG on ur cycle, or an AI? what did u use in ur cycle?

[kelkel]

Lemonada you've been MIA? Where ya been?

[Lemonada8]

Lemonada you've been MIA? Where ya been?

school is gettin pretty heavy.. that and i have boards in june.. so been tryin to up my game with studyin n such

[jomamma007]

No one can really say how long it will take your system to find homeostasis. You've been on a long time for such a young and still developing HPTA so who knows what actual damage you may have done. With high estrogen levels your shbg will also naturally rise. Just like E follows T it also follows shbg.

I assume your doctor is fully aware of your aas usage? Your high LH gives rise to a possible feedback problem. Meaning it's over producing in effort to get the desired result and the testies aren't as responsive as they should be. Normally high LH/FSH and low T levels would indicate primary failure, but your T levels are sound. Therefore it sounds prudent to obtain an MRI and rule in or out pituitary issues before you move forward.

Yes my doc knows of my aas usage, but my question is you say my testes aren't as responsive but my test levels are high so it seems like they are responding nonetheless correct? When I had my blood tests at 19 my test was always around the 400-450 range so does that mean if my LH cools out and finds homoestasis my test levels will drop down to their normal low levels? Or is it because my SHBG is so high that my body has too make all this extra test right now because it's making most of the free test useless and my test levels will drop while my SHBG goes down?

[Far from massive]

I am assuming the OP did not tell his doctor about the AAS and PCT and this is why he is so suprized at the bizzare BW, particularly for a "late bloomer".

[jomamma007]

Its doubtful you have a pit tumor due to the other hormones in the pit being normal, and only LH being out of range... but still best to be on the safe side and see the endocrinologist.

elevated estrogen will increase your SHBG level, which looks like is binding to the test to bring your free test level down. but with your previous test, it still looks like ur estrogen was high then also...

did you use HCG on ur cycle, or an AI? what did u use in ur cycle?

I ran hcg for the first 1/3 of the cycle and ran letro throughout when I felt I needed it based on gyno
cycle was as follows
week 1-10 test e 600 week
week 8-10 tren ace 525 week
week 10-12 prop 50 a day
week 12-14 hcg 1500 eod
week 15 started pct
week 15-18 clomid 100/100/50/50
week 15-20 nolva 30/30/30/30/30/30
is my testical pain normal for such high lh? they are hurting more frequently now. My symptoms seem to be dying down, mainly the moodiness but my erections are still weak which sounds about right considering my SHBG results even though my drive is high. Other then that I have some anxiety right now but i assume it's because my blood pressure is a bit high now and pretty bad lethargy which could be from the high estro maybe?

[kelkel]

Hell of a cycle for a young guy. Jeez. Entirely too much hcg was used and may be a part of the problem here, just hard to tell. Still think you just need time for your body to settle down. Get the MRI if possible as well. Pituitary tumors can do/cause strange things. They are not all the same. Peoples general concensus is that if you have a pit tumor then you have high prolactin. Not true at all. Trust me on this. I'm the proud owner of a 2mm pituitary tumor.

[jomamma007]

Hell of a cycle for a young guy. Jeez. Entirely too much hcg was used and may be a part of the problem here, just hard to tell. Still think you just need time for your body to settle down. Get the MRI if possible as well. Pituitary tumors can do/cause strange things. They are not all the same. Peoples general concensus is that if you have a pit tumor then you have high prolactin. Not true at all. Trust me on this. I'm the proud owner of a 2mm pituitary tumor.

I do agree that my body still needs time to get back to homeostasis, since stopping my aas 12 weeks ago I've started to grow chest hair and facial hair which I never had before and my hand have grown noticeably thicker which I thought was odd considering that I didn't grow it on cycle. Do you think my nuts hurting is a good or bad thing? And I guess high SHBG is normal considering how high my test is? I'm guessing by the time I see the endo, it will probably be about 8-9 weeks after completion of pct so results will be more accurate, but I did take letro a bit and I heard that can also screw up blood tests, is this true? it was only .25-.5 dose done after last two blood test showing high estrogen levels.

[Lemonada8]

that was way to much HCG .

You are prolly having to much bio-inactive LH in your system due to the amount of HCG used. The pit has to compensate for that much inactive LH by pushing out more LH.

[jomamma007]

that was way to much HCG .

You are prolly having to much bio-inactive LH in your system due to the amount of HCG used. The pit has to compensate for that much inactive LH by pushing out more LH.

So even though i took the hcg 12 weeks ago it's still causing problems?

[Lemonada8]

yea... too much HCG can cause bio-inactive LH to increase, that included with being on a cycle where u really dont need LH (from the bodys point of view, via having alot of excess androgens in the system) causes the LH to become bio-inactive. Then with your PCT of clomid and tamox, those both increase the LH production via modulation at the pituitary gland and how it responds to GnRH. Since it was already pushing out inactive LH, now that u are off cycle it has to produce more LH than normal because of the inactive form is also being produced. Thats what i suspect is the reason your LH is so high.
the good thing is that your test levels are also high, the free is a tad on the low end for how high the total is, but that can be explained by the amount of estrogen and the increase in SHBG.

But the good news is that your pit is working good, just a bit overtime cuz some of the LH isnt working, so it senses that and pushes out more. I would bet that letting your body stabilize and abstain from future cycles untill its fully balanced out, then do a more sensible cycle with proper usage of HCG, that it wont affect you much long run ( well.. comparitive to running heavy androgen cycles.. ) the thing you would have to worry about is burn-out of the pituitary gland, which would require you to have HRT when you are older.

def go see the endo, and they will prolly do a MRI of ur pit to make sure there isnt a tumor; but like ive said, thats rare if that is what is causing the problem. but they do happen, so best to be on the safe side.

[kelkel]

Great answer above ^^. Your shbg is not high due to elevated test. The quickest way to lower shbg is to elevate test. Your shbg is high due to your estrogen at the moment as well as what Lemonada so eloquently laid out for you.

On cycle a normal amount of HCG would be app 250 IU x 2 per week. Do the math on what you did compared to that.....

[jomamma007]

yea... too much HCG can cause bio-inactive LH to increase, that included with being on a cycle where u really dont need LH (from the bodys point of view, via having alot of excess androgens in the system) causes the LH to become bio-inactive. Then with your PCT of clomid and tamox, those both increase the LH production via modulation at the pituitary gland and how it responds to GnRH. Since it was already pushing out inactive LH, now that u are off cycle it has to produce more LH than normal because of the inactive form is also being produced. Thats what i suspect is the reason your LH is so high.
the good thing is that your test levels are also high, the free is a tad on the low end for how high the total is, but that can be explained by the amount of estrogen and the increase in SHBG.

But the good news is that your pit is working good, just a bit overtime cuz some of the LH isnt working, so it senses that and pushes out more. I would bet that letting your body stabilize and abstain from future cycles untill its fully balanced out, then do a more sensible cycle with proper usage of HCG, that it wont affect you much long run ( well.. comparitive to running heavy androgen cycles.. ) the thing you would have to worry about is burn-out of the pituitary gland, which would require you to have HRT when you are older.

def go see the endo, and they will prolly do a MRI of ur pit to make sure there isnt a tumor; but like ive said, thats rare if that is what is causing the problem. but they do happen, so best to be on the safe side.

Thanks for both of your answers, I'm just wondering how long it could take for my LH to balance out. I suppose time on +pct =18 weeks so I guess I shouldn't be too worried as it's only been 5 weeks since pct, I'm hoping another month or two everything should be balanced out,but i'm also thinking when my lh gets under control my test might drop a lot as it falls as I had low test levels even before cycling, is that most likely what will happen? If i lower my estrogen my shbg should fall as well correct leaving more free test available? So basically all the endo could do would be to try and control my estrogen? Are you saying burnt out of the pit gland now or if I keep cycling because I do not wish to cycle again I just want everything to balance out and feel normal. Lastly should I wait a month or two to see the endo to get more accurate results because even if I tell him i took aas, which I will, a lot of endos might not know it's the hcg i took causing the LH spike according to you guys and I don't want to be mis diagnosed. And thanks for the replies guys I really do appreciate it, you took a lot of stress off me even though I wont know whats happening until I get the MRI i feel a lot better knowing it's probably not a tumor and just hormones trying to get under control.

[kelkel]

Yes to your LH dropping and your test normalizing. When shbg reduces your free rises as well as you stated. Glad your taking time off. Your body needs to recoup.

Add vitamin D3 to your protocol as well as it will reduce shbg and allow more free T. Maybe 5k IU's per day until you test your 25-Hydroxy to see where your at. Everyone is pretty much low. Stinging Nettle Root and avena co-sides will also help in this area. Prescription Danazol will reduce shbg but right now you need your body to correct itself without more meds throwing a curve ball at you.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22220644

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20050857

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2010/...Members_01.htm

[OdinsOtherSon]

kelkel, Lemonada 8: Great thread and great answers/info. Lots of really valuable info here that the both of you were able to condense and put out in a clear, concise manner. Thanks to the input the both of you provided the OP, I was able to personally add a ton of info to my knowledge base. Thanks guys...I'm subbing this thread!

[Lemonada8]

Thanks for both of your answers, I'm just wondering how long it could take for my LH to balance out. I suppose time on +pct =18 weeks so I guess I shouldn't be too worried as it's only been 5 weeks since pct, I'm hoping another month or two everything should be balanced out,but i'm also thinking when my lh gets under control my test might drop a lot as it falls as I had low test levels even before cycling, is that most likely what will happen? If i lower my estrogen my shbg should fall as well correct leaving more free test available? So basically all the endo could do would be to try and control my estrogen? Are you saying burnt out of the pit gland now or if I keep cycling because I do not wish to cycle again I just want everything to balance out and feel normal. Lastly should I wait a month or two to see the endo to get more accurate results because even if I tell him i took aas, which I will, a lot of endos might not know it's the hcg i took causing the LH spike according to you guys and I don't want to be mis diagnosed. And thanks for the replies guys I really do appreciate it, you took a lot of stress off me even though I wont know whats happening until I get the MRI i feel a lot better knowing it's probably not a tumor and just hormones trying to get under control.

I wouldnt wait, worst case senerio is that there is a tumor, and that is something u want known asap. Just be sure to be completely honest and open about everything you have used, and the amounts and length of time used. you can mention that you have been asking around and heard about too much HCG resulting in bio-inactive LH just to be open about it.. but dont take a 'tone' trying to 'one-up' the endo...

also ask about a beta-HCG test, along with an Alpha-feto-protien marker test to rule out a testicular tumor that could be due to the excessive androgen levels to be on the safe side.


the burnt out pit gland is for advanced age... there is a correlation between AAS usage and needing HRT in the future, but no hard studies to prove that yet ( that i know of... mainly just empirical evidence)

personally.. i wouldnt try to adjust anything unless ur under the supervision of the endo... the human body is great at adapting and balancing itself out which takes time...
I would stop all 'hormone boosters' and other supplements ( other than a multivit ) and let the body balance itself out. The D3 thing is a good suggestion, its a normal vitiman so it wouldnt hurt... just dont take too much of it, i dotn know the toxicity levels of it, but it is fat soluble so it wont be pissed out like B vitamins will when ur piss turns neon yellow..
per wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_D

[jomamma007]

Okay sounds great, I had just bought some vit d3 and zma but decided not to take them until I saw the endo as I didn't want to mess with my hormones even more, but your saying it's a good idea to take them both now?

[kelkel]

D3 is marketed as a vitamin but it's actually a hormone and is literally in every cell in your body. Arguably the most important one you can take. If your getting blood pulled soon just wait and establish a baseline before you start supplementing with it. You'll survive just fine until then. When you do start take it with meals, like Lemonada said it's fat soluble. If you're able pull DHEA-S as well. Take a look at the BW in the Finding a Doc sticky in the HRT forum for an example of what to pull. May help you.

Good luck with things and post up your follow-up results on THIS thread please.

check out www.examine.com for vitamin info. Great write up on D and many, many others. Site owner's a good guy and unbiased.

[jomamma007]

Well I'm getting my referall for the endo this week, so that's a start but here is my concern. My nuts seem to be hurting more and more now, I have completely stopped energy drinks and pre workouts and I am experiencing some testicle pain everyday now, usually after my workout or after ejaculation, both new too me. The pain seems to alternate between tesicles as well. I'm hoping it's just because my LH is high causing them to ache, and it would make sense I suppose for them to hurt after ejaculation as there making more spermies? What do you guys think, just wondering what it could be in the meantime while I'm waiting for endo.

[kelkel]

Don't know if I want to speculate on that. It very well may be due to what you've put them through. You weren't nice to them, really. Time will heal in most cases. Like we said above, your body is searching for homeostasis. It doesn't happen overnight! Patience.

[jomamma007]

Don't know if I want to speculate on that. It very well may be due to what you've put them through. You weren't nice to them, really. Time will heal in most cases. Like we said above, your body is searching for homeostasis. It doesn't happen overnight! Patience.

Hmm this sucks my erections have sucked for 3 months now :/. I feel like once my body reaches homeostasis and my lh ceases to overcompensate my testosterone will be low like it used to be being the reason I got on hormone therapy in the first place, so basically i'm just waiting another few months for my levels to balance out just to get on hormone therapy . Is there anything I can do in the meantime to help my erections, would getting v i a g r a from the doctor cause any problems as far as my bodies hormone levels balancing out?

[kelkel]

I'd skip viagra and use Cialis as it does the same thing and has a much longer half life. I go with 5mg twice per day, noon and bedtime. It is an extremely healthy item to take for many more reasons than just erections. One is that it's a nitric oxide booster. Another item that can help with that issue is Doxazosin. It's an alpha blocker / smooth muscle relaxer (think weiner here) that used in low doses helps.

Main thing though is your high estrogen. When that begins to get back to normal I'd bet you'll be ok. Both high and low E can cause erectile difficulty.

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsro.../ucm274642.htm

[jomamma007]

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So i got a prescription today for ci ali s but it`s a bit pricey so im just going to wait to see the endo. Its probably going to be a month before i see him and i have the urge to take some l e t r o in the meantime to lower my estrogrn, but this is probably a bad idea right. I should just let my body do its thinf?

[kelkel]

Patience.....

[jomamma007]

Patience.....

well I'm getting gyno now.... and I don't have bloods since my last test but I'd say my estrogen is continuing to get higher, as I've been extra moody, gyno is developing, as well as some serious ED, just a lil worried since I probably wont even get help for at least a month I don't want to develop serious gyno. any suggestions other then patience?

[jomamma007]

Hey guys. Seeing endo in two weeks, had some bloods done yesterday, been 3 weeks since last bloods. So i`m at 8 weeks since completition of pct. Any input?
Test total-571
Lh-5.1
Fsh-3.9
E2-24.1
Last two weeks lethargys getting worse, so dam tired all the time. Still having erection issues

[Lemonada8]

Rebound effect i bet... ur body is just stabilizing, give it time

[jomamma007]

Rebound effect i bet... ur body is just stabilizing, give it time

hey guys had more extensive bloodwork done.
Tsh 2.7 .450-4.5
T4 free 1.27 .82-1.77
Test total 270 low 348-1197
Free 4.2 low 9.3-26.5
Prolactin 10.6 4-15.2
Estrogen total 43 40-115
SHBG 59.9 high 16.5-55.9
I have the option to get on hormone therapy now, and i think i will as i have had low test my whole life, have bloodworl since 2010 to prove it, havr never been over 450 naturally even before my cycle.. seeing endo in a week will keep u guya posted, any comments though? I feel like ass, no libido, ed, lethargy, insomnia, moodiness, n kel ur looking sick in ur avi