HCG, Clomid, Nolvadex Protocol didn't work...What does it mean?

[Bjorg89]

After beeing off testosterone for the past two years and having low free T and total T and all the symptoms that come along (fatigue, no sex drive, bad mood, etc...) and chasing doctors for help, I did the folowing protocol to try and restart my HPTA:

HCG 500iu/d for two weeks, followed by
Clomid 25mg/d + 10mg Nolva/d for the next two weeks.

I also used Maca 2g/d and DAA 3g/d for the whole month. Zinc, Magnesium, Vit D, Omega3 was on the menu also before as it is now.

The BW right after finishing this protocol, which was btw prescribed by a doctor who is supposed to be TRT specialist, there was no change or at least it seems like it...

These are BW before and after:

January: _______________________________________May:

Total T: 300 ng/dl ------> 250-850 ng/dl______________Total T: 360 ng/dl ------> 250-850 ng/dl
Free T: 6,1 ng/dl ------> 5,8-18 ng/dl _______________ Free T: 6,1 ng/dl ------> 5,8-18 ng/dl
LH: 4,2 mIU/ml ------> 0,1-8 mIU/ml _______________ LH: 6,1 mIU/ml ------> 0,1-8 mIU/ml
FSH: 6,0 mIU/ml ------> 0,1-11 mIU/ml _____________ FSH: 6,2 mIU/ml ------> 0,1-11 mIU/ml
SHBG: 31 nmol/L ------> 13-71 nmol/L ______________SHBG: 41 nmol/L ------> 13-71 nmol/L
Estro: 21 ng/L ------> 10-40 ng/L___________________ Estro: 14 ng/L ------> 10-40 ng/L
Prolactin: 20 ng/ml -------> 2,5-17 ng/ml ____________ Prolactin: 6 ng/ml -------> 2,5-17 ng/ml

There was no significant change in Testosterone nor Estradiol nor LH and FSH. The biggest change is in Prolactin, which I don't know by what mechanism did it come from.

So my questions are...
- What does this mean/tell?
- Am I primary or secondary hypogonadal?
- Could a different approach (doses, length) bring different results?

The doctor says HRT is my only way. He would put me on HRT right away, would we not be trying to concieve at the moment.

Cheers

[Bjorg89]

Anyone any thoughts?

[The Deadlifting Dog]

you can't do bloodwork immediately after PCT. you need to wait 6-8 weeks.

the drugs take a while to clear your system.

[charger69]

Anyone any thoughts?

I want your Dr. LOL


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[Bjorg89]

Wasn't this question asked in another thread?

It might have been...

I have been asking questions on this forum for over a year now and I never get a proper answer. Either I get no answer, half ass answer, stupid comments or the thread goes total out of the subject.

So yeah, I opened a new thread and the same story again

[Bjorg89]

you can't do bloodwork immediately after PCT. you need to wait 6-8 weeks.

the drugs take a while to clear your system.

I get that, but in this exact situation where there was no difference even tho the drugs were in still in the system, I don't see how waiting will make any difference. I doupt there will be miraculous effect once they are out, so don't see what was your point.

[Bjorg89]

I want your Dr. LOL


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Hilarious

[Bjorg89]

If you consistently get the same type of responses, maybe there is an issue with how you are asking your questions.

That said, the answer to @thedeadliftingdog's question is important. If the drugs are still in your system, you cannot know if you have recovered or if the drugs are influencing numbers.

One way to determine if you are secondary vs primary is to try a solo run of clomid. 50mg 3x week is what my doc started me on. Check blood work in 90 days and see where you are. If your numbers are up, congrats, you are likely secondary. If they don't move, you are likely primary. Clomid also does not have a negative impact on fertility, I think that was important in your situation.

FYI, the initial 3 x 50 per week clomid put me over range on total T, free T, dht, LH and FSH. Just one person's experience...

Maybe you are right. There could be some odd sense to my writing that I am not aware of. English is not my first language, so maybe some authenticity is lost, but I always try to write politely. Honestly, sometimes I even have a feeling I am being to polite, like I am begging for help and then I see some random thread, where an asshole is getting more responses than me. I guess his approach was better

Joke aside, there are of course genuinely great guys here on the forum.

Thank you for the advice cylon357!

[Bjorg89]

Ah, the second language thing can be challenging.

A**holes may get more responses, but eventually that wears out and people stop bothering with them.

Bottom line though is this: you are not clinically low in any of your numbers. So, finding the right doc is key. Sounds like you have that part down.

But, you still can't say if you recovered or if the PCT drugs were still in your system. Need to get tested again 6 to 8 weeks AFTER pct is complete.

I would try the clomid thing for 90 days. It's not for everyone, but since you are trying to father a child, it may be the better choice in the short term. Once you conceive, you can go back to the needle or stick with clomid or do whatever you want. Of course, this option will also help determine if you are primary or secondary.

Sometimes waiting is the hardest part, but getting those follow up numbers will make things clearer.

EDIT: I've been doing a little reading on Enclomiphene Citrate vs Clomid. I don't know enough about it yet to speak intelligently to it, but it sounds like 'Clomid minus the estrogen related effects'. Might be something to discuss with your doc (I'll be speaking to mine about it in July).

Thanks cylon357

I have bumped into enclomiphene some while ago and read some promising statements, but I didn't manage to get my hands on it.

Do you maybe have any idea where a certain amount of HCG would put ones Free T levels? Or can that only be determined by experimenting?

Do you think HCG monotherapy would be superior or inferior to Clomid therapy?

[JBaum2000]

Although The Deadlifting Dog has a good point, the drugs used in PCT would only raise total T. 3 important points: firstly is that it does indeed take some time after a PCT protocol for any effect, sometimes 2-3 months, so wait at least 90 days before going in for a diagnosis of hypogonadism. Secondly, and there is plenty of research on this, in the absence of an aromatase inhibitor LH has a proclivity to raise estrogen and not testosterone in hypogonadal men— LH just tells your pituitary to produce MORE hormones not which. To avoid this you need to overlap the end of your hCG and the beginning of your AR-inhibitor protocols. hCG has half-life of about 24 hours so if you never take the two concurrently you have missed out. Lastly, I have had success with only AR-inhibitors in the past but I came to realize that if your body is producing SOME estrogen then your pituitary gland says that the job is done and there is no need for more LH release. To that end sometimes a STRONGER aromatase-inhibitor might be necessary, like Arimidex , to get things moving. I have had worse and better PCTs but I have never had total T of less than 600 by the end of it by doing what I described above.

Also, make sure you’re testing your hormones at about 9am and at the same time, yes it makes a significant difference and in my experience fertility specialists aren’t worth their salt, I have only met a couple endocrinologists that I regarded highly. Good luck!

[Hughinn]

You won't get a solid answer, because everyone is different.

Few academic scientific studies are done in the aas and pct subjects, as steroid use is considered taboo.

Advice is the best your going to get.

I suggest you get to know your body, study the shit you put into it, and come here for advice only.

Your injecting illegal substances. At your own risk. You got to figure it out on your own.