Recovery Failure! System out of wack

**santacruz05** · 03-06-2022, 01:47 PM

Hey All,

Im 38, 200 lbs and 6'. Ive done about 14 cycles. All not very high dose.

I just finished a DECA cycle @ 250mg/week + some test.

I was stupid and did not do proper PCT.

Around week 4 my body went completely wonky. My hands started hurting, my back muscles and my wrists. I did blood work and my test was low (no surprise). I did blood work two weeks apart, and my LH was coming up fast, but my test legged behind.

I tried to do hCG , but it caused hardcore nausea after each dose, for about 3 days. The pain comes from my stomach and im bed wridden all day. Could it be my adrenal glands? does that make any sense? I tried to start late PCT but the symptoms came back to quick.

I cannot handle the pain - I have to go back on the needle. I will do TRT for the time being.

My body is in desperate need of test or estregen, as the whole thing is going bonkers. Im in pain all day and night.

I guess my best guess is to try and do proper PCT in a few months when I have stabilized my hormones?

**santacruz05** · 03-06-2022, 01:52 PM

Another question - has anyone heard of a funny smell while on Clomid? I feel like im crazy, but every since using it I have this lingering smell. Is it a common side effect?

**almostgone** · 03-06-2022, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by santacruz05

Hey All,

Im 38, 200 lbs and 6'. Ive done about 14 cycles. All not very high dose.

I just finished a DECA cycle @ 250mg/week + some test.

I was stupid and did not do proper PCT.

Around week 4 my body went completely wonky. My hands started hurting, my back muscles and my wrists. I did blood work and my test was low (no surprise). I did blood work two weeks apart, and my LH was coming up fast, but my test legged behind.

I tried to do hCG , but it caused hardcore nausea after each dose, for about 3 days. The pain comes from my stomach and im bed wridden all day. Could it be my adrenal glands? does that make any sense? I tried to start late PCT but the symptoms came back to quick.

I cannot handle the pain - I have to go back on the needle. I will do TRT for the time being.

My body is in desperate need of test or estregen, as the whole thing is going bonkers. Im in pain all day and night.

I guess my best guess is to try and do proper PCT in a few months when I have stabilized my hormones?

Your PCT is supposed to help your hormone levels stabilize. Did you pull a sensitive E2 panel?

Edit: Personally, I wouldn't be incorporating HCG right now. Your goal now would be recovery via PCT.

**santacruz05** · 03-06-2022, 04:31 PM

When the symptoms were the worst my Estradiol was <30 pmol/L

Do you think this could have been the cause of body pains?

I find this an interesting thought, as I did do a deca cycle, which may have compounded with the low estrodiol during PCT.

Anyways- as discussed I have decided to go on a short (maybe 8 week) test cycle. I instantly feel better when I did my first shot of PROP. Im hoping this alleviates my body pains and I can restart PCT with proper regime.

Any input would be helpful. I realize just continuing PCT would be best for recovery, but I just cannot tolerate the symptoms.

**santacruz05** · 03-06-2022, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by almostgone

Your PCT is supposed to help your hormone levels stabilize. Did you pull a sensitive E2 panel?

Edit: Personally, I wouldn't be incorporating HCG right now. Your goal now would be recovery via PCT.

Sorry I forgot to respond directly: see post above.

**Test Monsterone** · 03-06-2022, 09:31 PM

It's not clear from your post how long your cycle was. You say you got those symptoms at 4 weeks and did bloodwork, and then you said your LH started coming back fast. Did you do a 4-week cycle?

As for the HCG , I agree with AG - you should have run HCG during the cycle, not after. HCG is suppressive to LH, so need for that now. If you are getting sick from HCG, then there is something wrong with your HCG. Is it pharmacy grade or from some peptide website? I never play games with my HCG, I get only pharmacy grade HCG. I don't want to be injecting who knows what from some lab.

If your LH is coming back nicely, but your testosterone levels are not, it means that your body senses a lack of testosterone , so it is producing LH to stimulate the testes. The testes always need more time to recover than the pituitary gland that secretes the LH. It is not uncommon to have very high LH with low T, because your body is trying hard to raise your test levels by producing an overabundance of LH. You see now why it doesn't make sense to run HCG at this point. You will just be replacing your body's own LH with a synthetic version, further suppressing your pituitary, and further extending your time to recovery. I would drop everything at this point and let your body recover on it's own, no test or HCG, unless you plan on staying on TRT forever.

**almostgone** · 03-06-2022, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by santacruz05

When the symptoms were the worst my Estradiol was <30 pmol/L

Do you think this could have been the cause of body pains?

What was the reference range for your E2 panel? Yes sir, low E2 can cause aches aplenty.

Personally, I would ran a proper PCT, then ,4-6 weeks after that, draw labs again.

**santacruz05** · 03-07-2022, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by almostgone

What was the reference range for your E2 panel? Yes sir, low E2 can cause aches aplenty.

Personally, I would ran a proper PCT, then ,4-6 weeks after that, draw labs again.

I cannot continue PCT. The pain is INSANE! My entire body hurts and it feels like I have carpel tunnel sydrome, my hands are on fire.

Maybe this is a result of 12 weeks on DECA and then after my pct started my estriol dropped lower.

**santacruz05** · 03-07-2022, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Test Monsterone

It's not clear from your post how long your cycle was. You say you got those symptoms at 4 weeks and did bloodwork, and then you said your LH started coming back fast. Did you do a 4-week cycle?

As for the HCG , I agree with AG - you should have run HCG during the cycle, not after. HCG is suppressive to LH, so need for that now. If you are getting sick from HCG, then there is something wrong with your HCG. Is it pharmacy grade or from some peptide website? I never play games with my HCG, I get only pharmacy grade HCG. I don't want to be injecting who knows what from some lab.

If your LH is coming back nicely, but your testosterone levels are not, it means that your body senses a lack of testosterone, so it is producing LH to stimulate the testes. The testes always need more time to recover than the pituitary gland that secretes the LH. It is not uncommon to have very high LH with low T, because your body is trying hard to raise your test levels by producing an overabundance of LH. You see now why it doesn't make sense to run HCG at this point. You will just be replacing your body's own LH with a synthetic version, further suppressing your pituitary, and further extending your time to recovery. I would drop everything at this point and let your body recover on it's own, no test or HCG, unless you plan on staying on TRT forever.

I did a 12 week cycle. The issue for me was not that my blood work seemed to be rebounding, but that I started getting insane body pains. I have decided to go back on a short test cycle - I could not handle the pain.

I do not want to stay on test forever, but I dont think PCT should be causing me excruciating pain all day...

**santacruz05** · 03-07-2022, 06:09 AM

Here is my bloodwork at the time my pain began to ensue. I note the reference value for EST has no minimum, but it seems to be too low. Im wondering if maybe you are right about estrogen causing the pain. Im blown away by how much pain it can cause though. Most of the muscles in my body were feeling like they were inflammed.

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**Test Monsterone** · 03-07-2022, 09:29 AM

Could have been a minor case of rhabdomyolysis if your muscles were hurting everywhere.

**almostgone** · 03-07-2022, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by santacruz05

Here is my bloodwork at the time my pain began to ensue. I note the reference value for EST has no minimum, but it seems to be too low. Im wondering if maybe you are right about estrogen causing the pain. Im blown away by how much pain it can cause though. Most of the muscles in my body were feeling like they were inflammed.

I believe you have the standard estradiol panel, but males need the sensitive E2. It is more accurate at lower levels

**santacruz05** · 03-07-2022, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Test Monsterone

Could have been a minor case of rhabdomyolysis if your muscles were hurting everywhere.

Scary thought. I read up on it - but I did routine blood work and I dont have anything off related to creatinine and other basic blood profiles.

Furthermore, 4 hours after a propionate shot, all my symptoms start to slowely go away. It must have to do with Test or Est.

**almostgone** · 03-07-2022, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by santacruz05

Scary thought. I read up on it - but I did routine blood work and I dont have anything off related to creatinine and other basic blood profiles.

Furthermore, 4 hours after a propionate shot, all my symptoms start to slowely go away. It must have to do with Test or Est.

Estrogen levels will rise as T levels rise.

**Test Monsterone** · 03-07-2022, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by santacruz05

Scary thought. I read up on it - but I did routine blood work and I dont have anything off related to creatinine and other basic blood profiles.

Furthermore, 4 hours after a propionate shot, all my symptoms start to slowely go away. It must have to do with Test or Est.

Then maybe it's an allergic reaction? Maybe to the solvent or the oil used?

**santacruz05** · 03-08-2022, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Test Monsterone

Then maybe it's an allergic reaction? Maybe to the solvent or the oil used?

I dont think so. My symptoms came about when I was recovering. I shared the blood work above at the time of symptoms.

Pain started in my hands, wrists, upper and lower back. The muscles and joints were in deep pain.

And test injection FIXES the symptoms and they come back when the TEST begins wearing off. So Fing weird!

**almostgone** · 03-08-2022, 10:19 AM

Just wondering. What do you use for an AI? Again, that for doesn't look like the sensitive E2 assay you need.

**santacruz05** · 03-08-2022, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by almostgone

Just wondering. What do you use for an AI? Again, that for doesn't look like the sensitive E2 assay you need.

I do not use an AI. My last cycle was DECA @ 200 mg/week. I didnt think an AI is needed, am i wrong?

It is not a sensitive E2. It will take me a while to get that done as I live in Canada and there are issues getting referrals for it. I do note that my general Estrediol is below the minimum value on the result panel. The value is <8.2 pg/ml.

I will get a sensitive E2 panel but like I said - it will take some time. For now i've gone back on cycle (@ TRT dosages) and it is helping with symptoms.

Im doing about 20mg Prop/day and i feel my body pains symptoms getting better by the day. The worst symptoms is burning wrists all day - it seems to fit the description of carpel tunnel. But I also get pain in my neck, back and forearms when the symptoms get worse.

I have got a referral to an Endo but this will takes months to materialize.

Any input along the way helps. Should I run AI?

**almostgone** · 03-08-2022, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by santacruz05

I do not use an AI. My last cycle was DECA @ 200 mg/week. I didnt think an AI is needed, am i wrong?

It is not a sensitive E2. It will take me a while to get that done as I live in Canada and there are issues getting referrals for it. I do note that my general Estrediol is below the minimum value on the result panel. The value is <8.2 pg/ml.

I will get a sensitive E2 panel but like I said - it will take some time. For now i've gone back on cycle (@ TRT dosages) and it is helping with symptoms.

Im doing about 20mg Prop/day and i feel my body pains symptoms getting better by the day. The worst symptoms is burning wrists all day - it seems to fit the description of carpel tunnel. But I also get pain in my neck, back and forearms when the symptoms get worse.

I have got a referral to an Endo but this will takes months to materialize.

Any input along the way helps. Should I run AI?

No, not at all. I was just curious if used an AI on cycle or accidentally continued using one. Overuse would crush your E2 which would contribute to your joint issues.

The issues you just described also could be pinched nerves, particularly since you mention the neck. Test injections wouldn't improve those problems, though.

**santacruz05** · 07-14-2022, 10:20 AM

I have spoken to an endo recently. He told me that it is common to have muscle pains and cramps when changing testosterone , such as going from EXO to ENDO. He said this is due to the sensitivity of the muscles to testosterone types.

Im surprised noone else here has had these issues??? I cant be the only one on this board?!?!?

**956Vette** · 07-14-2022, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by santacruz05

I have spoken to an endo recently. He told me that it is common to have muscle pains and cramps when changing testosterone , such as going from EXO to ENDO. He said this is due to the sensitivity of the muscles to testosterone types.

Im surprised noone else here has had these issues??? I cant be the only one on this board?!?!?

Have not heard of or experienced pains/cramps switching from natural testosterone to synthetic or derivative (19 nor-testosterone), doctor sounds like a bonehead attempting to show empathy. Fear you pain is lots more complex than anything hormone related. The reality of discontinuing the benefits from deca durabolin , as it pertains to collagen or anti-inflammatory properties, are minor/subtle. Wishing you all the best, hopeful you find answers soon!