Why do we limit SARM cycles to 4 weeks?

**gymfu** · 02-24-2013, 11:10 PM

So I've never used any SARM and been doing lots of research but can't get a good answer to this. Why such short cycles or why do we have to cycle off SARM's at all?

**Atomini** · 03-04-2013, 06:14 AM

I believe it is possibly because there is not enough research behind these things to definitively say that they are safe enough to use long-term, so when it comes to things that are very new like SARMs , it is best to play it as safe as possible and run as short as possible cycles. Some SARMs have demonstrated to in fact be suppressive to the HPTA as well. I think that is reason enough to cycle them (or at least the certain ones that are suppressive).

**gymfu** · 03-06-2013, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Atomini

I believe it is possibly because there is not enough research behind these things to definitively say that they are safe enough to use long-term, so when it comes to things that are very new like SARMs, it is best to play it as safe as possible and run as short as possible cycles. Some SARMs have demonstrated to in fact be suppressive to the HPTA as well. I think that is reason enough to cycle them (or at least the certain ones that are suppressive).

That's kinda what I figured. I will be on 12.5mg/day for 6 weeks and will have bloodwork done at the end. I'll report back with my findings.

What I've read SARM doses have to be pretty high to be HPTA suppressive, I'm on TRT anyways.

**HURRICANE3500** · 04-05-2013, 03:43 AM

dont have to be 4 weeks. 8 week cycles are ran all the time on sarms products.Should be cycled and a mini pct ran afterwards to play it on the safe side.

**gymfu** · 04-19-2013, 09:35 PM

I got my bloodwork done at the end of my cycle, good news, my LDL moved down quite a bit (this was done post test/tren cycle); bad news, my liver enzymes are still way too high. In fact my ALT didn't come down even one point, it was at 99 post cycle and again 6 weeks later! I'm not sure I can blame the SARM for this but unclear why they didn't get any better at all.

I have added NAC and acetyl l-carnitine to my daily supplements. Gotta get these liver enzymes down before I go see my TRT doc.

**Hotbodyredhead** · 05-05-2013, 03:38 AM

My liver enzymes were extremely elevated (doubled) after 4 weeks of using too. I took milkthistle ED for 30 days at 2 pills of 1000mg in the morning and 2 at night. Had my blood work redone and all was normal. Hope it helps.

**Hotbodyredhead** · 05-05-2013, 03:43 AM

I forgot to mention that I read that Fenugreek is also great to cleanse the liver. I haven't tried it but I ordered some and will try it after my next cycle.

**mcdyl** · 05-05-2013, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Atomini

I believe it is possibly because there is not enough research behind these things to definitively say that they are safe enough to use long-term, so when it comes to things that are very new like SARMs, it is best to play it as safe as possible and run as short as possible cycles. Some SARMs have demonstrated to in fact be suppressive to the HPTA as well. I think that is reason enough to cycle them (or at least the certain ones that are suppressive).

Which ones are suppressive to the HPTA?

**CanadianBeefcake** · 05-06-2013, 04:28 PM

Just read up on SARMS . Is it true that it gets absorbed in the body but unlike oral AAS, SARMS are not liver toxic. If true, this is so cool.

**gymfu** · 05-06-2013, 09:49 PM

I have heard from people and seen in studies that they are not liver toxic. But my little experiment is saying otherwise.

As for the studies, they are always done on super low doses, like 1mg per day. And we are using 12.5-50/day.

My conclusion is they are at least mildly liver toxic.

**Java Man** · 05-07-2013, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by gymfu

I got my bloodwork done at the end of my cycle, good news, my LDL moved down quite a bit (this was done post test/tren cycle); bad news, my liver enzymes are still way too high. In fact my ALT didn't come down even one point, it was at 99 post cycle and again 6 weeks later! I'm not sure I can blame the SARM for this but unclear why they didn't get any better at all.

I have added NAC and acetyl l-carnitine to my daily supplements. Gotta get these liver enzymes down before I go see my TRT doc.

Do you think tren had anything to do with the enzyme abnormality and maybe the liver just hasn't had enough time to start recovering yet? The reason I ask is I just finished up a Tren / test cycle and had BW done before starting then again during the final wk. My HDL was trashed at the end and LDL higher than pre cycle. I'm getting more BW in 3 weeks (8 wks post cycle) and will post results in that thread.

My 1st time with Tren so wondering if you think in your experience it has any effect on enzymes. I'm hoping it did

of not, there's something else going on.

**gymfu** · 05-07-2013, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Java Man

Do you think tren had anything to do with the enzyme abnormality and maybe the liver just hasn't had enough time to start recovering yet? The reason I ask is I just finished up a Tren / test cycle and had BW done before starting then again during the final wk. My HDL was trashed at the end and LDL higher than pre cycle. I'm getting more BW in 3 weeks (8 wks post cycle) and will post results in that thread.

My 1st time with Tren so wondering if you think in your experience it has any effect on enzymes. I'm hoping it did

of not, there's something else going on.

Yes, the test/tren cycle is what elevated my enzymes up to 50(something i think) and 99. What is perplexing is 6 weeks after terminating the cycle and on SARM'S my ALT didn't come down at all, not even one point.

My opinion is they are either mildly liver toxic at these doses or they are at least preventing the liver from healing up.

I'm REALLY hoping the NAC will help as I've heard it has done wonders for others.

I will be getting more blood work done next Friday.

**tigerspawn** · 05-12-2013, 08:05 PM

Bump

**Java Man** · 05-18-2013, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by gymfu

Yes, the test/tren cycle is what elevated my enzymes up to 50(something i think) and 99. What is perplexing is 6 weeks after terminating the cycle and on SARM'S my ALT didn't come down at all, not even one point.

My opinion is they are either mildly liver toxic at these doses or they are at least preventing the liver from healing up.

I'm REALLY hoping the NAC will help as I've heard it has done wonders for others.

I will be getting more blood work done next Friday.

About what my ALT/AST were also, roughly, post tren. I started taking 3g vit C and 1.5 - 2g nac daily right after that last bt. It will be easier for me to decide if the nac/c combo helped or not based on your result since your bt was done at the same time frame post tren that I will be at but with nac and vit c included in mine. Interesting if nothing else as this is hardly a controlled study lol

**Java Man** · 05-18-2013, 09:35 PM

Oops I'm dragging this off topic as I am not running a SARM. Sorry!

**2jz_calgary** · 05-22-2013, 10:28 PM

I'd run sarms without steroids personally. And I found a log of a guy who ran ostarine during pct and recovered with before and after bw results. I know everyone's different... I'll try to find the link and post it.

**MuscleInk** · 05-22-2013, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by gymfu

So I've never used any SARM and been doing lots of research but can't get a good answer to this. Why such short cycles or why do we have to cycle off SARM's at all?

Keep this tread updated gymfu. I've had numerous discussions with the CEO of the company that developed enobosarm (ostarine) and used the compound to reverse cachexia in cancer patients with remarkable outcomes. Unfortunately there is still very little long term data beyond 16 week treatment periods so the safety profile is still incomplete for long term prescribed use. I didn't observe any significant changes in LFTs with patients from baseline however, hepatic function in these patients is usually challenged to begin with but at least enobosarm didn't exacerbate their conditions.

**Java Man** · 05-22-2013, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleInk

Keep this tread updated gymfu. I've had numerous discussions with the CEO of the company that developed enobosarm (ostarine) and used the compound to reverse cachexia in cancer patients with remarkable outcomes. Unfortunately there is still very little long term data beyond 16 week treatment periods so the safety profile is still incomplete for long term prescribed use. I didn't observe any significant changes in LFTs with patients from baseline however, hepatic function in these patients is usually challenged to begin with but at least enobosarm didn't exacerbate their conditions.

. It seems reasonable that someone who already has a.compromised hepatic function would likely suffer more damage than a healthy person if they are hepatotoxic I would think?

This is promising. SARMs are very interesting compounds.

**MuscleInk** · 05-23-2013, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by Java Man

. It seems reasonable that someone who already has a.compromised hepatic function would likely suffer more damage than a healthy person if they are hepatotoxic I would think?

This is promising. SERMs are very interesting compounds.

Correct. I did not see evidence of increased hepatic distress or dysfunction. Patients responded well with minimal side effects.

**Java Man** · 05-23-2013, 01:59 AM

That should say SA not SE. corrected.

**gymfu** · 05-23-2013, 01:54 PM

I'm awaiting my blood work after 8 weeks off of everything (AAS and SARM)
I was taking the following:
4g vit C x3/day
1800mg NAC x3/day
4 caps Liv52 (started this amount 3 weeks ago)
1000mg milk thistle x2/day
2g Acetyl L-Carnitine x3/day

If this doesn't work I don't know what will. I might have a genetically week liver. My mom has had elevated enzymes in the past with no know causes.

I will repost as soon as I get my results.

**Java Man** · 05-23-2013, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by gymfu

I'm awaiting my blood work after 8 weeks off of everything (AAS and SARM)
I was taking the following:
4g vit C x3/day
1800mg NAC x3/day
4 caps Liv52 (started this amount 3 weeks ago)
1000mg milk thistle x2/day
2g Acetyl L-Carnitine x3/day

If this doesn't work I don't know what will. I might have a genetically week liver. My mom has had elevated enzymes in the past with no know causes.

I will repost as soon as I get my results.

I'll be watching. I should be getting my results monday and will post mine a well. I have less time off than you at 4 weeks but same protocol basically. I hope yours comes out well.

**gymfu** · 05-25-2013, 10:49 AM

Got my blood work back, not good.

My AST came down more but ALT is still at 93!

Not sure what I'm going to do now.

**cuban100** · 08-08-2013, 10:48 PM

I also finished a cycle of Tren to endup with the same situation. I even did a superdrol before and didn't had this problem like with Tren, so yes, after seeing this posts, now confirming that Tren it's the worst of them all for liver toxicity, well maybe also DMZ.