The Damage is permanent (low test again)

**Gutetime30** · 10-28-2012, 12:24 PM

Hey guys I decided to place this post in the hrt section now, because I am now going to be having hrt started Monday. To give everyone some background info... I am 20 years old (so young....) I ran a cycle back in July of Test E (500mgs), tren (300mgs), and anavar (6 weeks 40mgs) for 12 weeks. When I came off I used a natural test booster/estrogen blocker thinking it would restore my body... I was wrong! I had a blood test done in August that showed I had a testosterone level of 107

I went to my endocrinologist and told him that I wanted to try and bring back my natural levels before HRT. We tried for 1 week hcg of 1500 iu eod and had blood work done at the end of the week. My test levels went to 484! I had morning wood, felt great, and could focus! We then used clomid and novla for 5 weeks. 100/100/50/50/50 (clomid), and 40/40/20/20/20 of nolva. 4 days after hcg I went back into the office for some bloodwork and sure enough my levels started to decline again

He then told me to wait 2-3 weeks till clomid and nolva hit my system. Well 3 weeks in I did start to have morning wood again, but my mood was down/no energy. My joints were hurting and I had suicidal thoughts... I just had blood work done again, and my levels have declined to 150... My doctor is now advising to start HRT. He asked me if I wanted to gain all my size back by giving me 800 mgs of testosterone for 8-10 weeks, and then taper off using androgel or shots again. I cant take this feeling anymore guys and am wondering is this the right thing to do? My body only responds to synthetic things. Oh one more thing he will give me hcg for the fertility.

**LT75** · 10-28-2012, 12:40 PM

Sorry for your misfortune. I have never heard of a dr prescribing 800mg a week ever. I would stick with the normal 100-160mg a week. No need for a heavy AI at that level.

**jasondd1** · 10-28-2012, 12:45 PM

I for one have my doubts that it is permanent. If it is you really ****ed yourself up, but my guess is that some of the pros will have better ideas on a restart.

**MuscleInk** · 10-28-2012, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Gutetime30

Hey guys I decided to place this post in the hrt section now, because I am now going to be having hrt started Monday. To give everyone some background info... I am 20 years old (so young....) I ran a cycle back in July of Test E (500mgs), tren (300mgs), and anavar (6 weeks 40mgs) for 12 weeks. When I came off I used a natural test booster/estrogen blocker thinking it would restore my body... I was wrong! I had a blood test done in August that showed I had a testosterone level of 107

I went to my endocrinologist and told him that I wanted to try and bring back my natural levels before HRT. We tried for 1 week hcg of 1500 iu eod and had blood work done at the end of the week. My test levels went to 484! I had morning wood, felt great, and could focus! We then used clomid and novla for 5 weeks. 100/100/50/50/50 (clomid), and 40/40/20/20/20 of nolva. 4 days after hcg I went back into the office for some bloodwork and sure enough my levels started to decline again

He then told me to wait 2-3 weeks till clomid and nolva hit my system. Well 3 weeks in I did start to have morning wood again, but my mood was down/no energy. My joints were hurting and I had suicidal thoughts... I just had blood work done again, and my levels have declined to 150... My doctor is now advising to start HRT. He asked me if I wanted to gain all my size back by giving me 800 mgs of testosterone for 8-10 weeks, and then taper off using androgel or shots again. I cant take this feeling anymore guys and am wondering is this the right thing to do? My body only responds to synthetic things. Oh one more thing he will give me hcg for the fertility.

Sorry to hear about your situation. It exemplifies why we recommend younger guys NOT experiment with this stuff until their endocrine system is fully mature and they are intellectually/emotionally prepared to appreciate the absolute risks that come with this stuff. Too many guys blow these risks off because "a buddy did it and everything was fine".

Anyway....to your situation...I don't know any doc dumb enough to recommend 800mg per week. Reaching and more importantly KEEPING gains is based largely on nutrition - if you don't consume enough calories, the weight will NOT stay on. Your doctor is ignorant for assuming otherwise and his plan is only a short term solution. Once he dose reduces, much of the weight will disappear again.

My suggestion: an HRT dose in the range of 200-250mg/wk is the place to start. At your age I'd rather see more effort put into trying to get some of your natty levels back with a combination of HCG and SERMs (clomiphene and tamoxifen ) but the reality is your natural levels may be permanently suppressed and the TRT will at least restore your levels to some degree.

Most importantly, steer yourself over to the nutrition section and work with our resident experts on building a diet that will promote lean, healthy, weight gain.

Keep up with your BW to be sure all hormone levels (test, E, LSH, FSH, etc.) aren't fluctuating all over the place.

Avoid cycling anything for awhile. Using AAS requires that you are physically and mentally prepared for the possible "ups and downs" and right now I believe it's in your best interest to try and normalize your levels as best as possible before you start messing with any cycles again at least for a few more years.

**dreadnok89** · 10-28-2012, 01:11 PM

Of course you had natural steroids at your age!!! So sad. I see so many younger kids on hardcore stuff at the gym. I feel u man. I took a legal supplement that shut my system down for good.

**bass** · 10-28-2012, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleInk

Sorry to hear about your situation. It exemplifies why we recommend younger guys NOT experiment with this stuff until their endocrine system is fully mature and they are intellectually/emotionally prepared to appreciate the absolute risks that come with this stuff. Too many guys blow these risks off because "a buddy did it and everything was fine".

Anyway....to your situation...I don't know any doc dumb enough to recommend 800mg per week. Reaching and more importantly KEEPING gains is based largely on nutrition - if you don't consume enough calories, the weight will NOT stay on. Your doctor is ignorant for assuming otherwise and his plan is only a short term solution. Once he dose reduces, much of the weight will disappear again.

My suggestion: an HRT dose in the range of 200-250mg/wk is the place to start. At your age I'd rather see more effort put into trying to get some of your natty levels back with a combination of HCG and SERMs (clomiphene and tamoxifen ) but the reality is your natural levels may be permanently suppressed and the TRT will at least restore your levels to some degree.

Most importantly, steer yourself over to the nutrition section and work with our resident experts on building a diet that will promote lean, healthy, weight gain.

Keep up with your BW to be sure all hormone levels (test, E, LSH, FSH, etc.) aren't fluctuating all over the place.

Avoid cycling anything for awhile. Using AAS requires that you are physically and mentally prepared for the possible "ups and downs" and right now I believe it's in your best interest to try and normalize your levels as best as possible before you start messing with any cycles again at least for a few more years.

^^^^ this. The only correction I'd make is 100-120 mgs ew instead of 200-250. Give your body time to recover, more like 6 months to a year, if not then consider TRT. 60 years on TRT, holy crap, to be honest i don't think you'll last that long on drugs. Do whatever it takes to restart.

**Far from massive** · 10-28-2012, 01:41 PM

I agree with Bass, Although you may not see substantial recovery I think that doing one PCT and then with only 3 months since the cycle to assume your system is irreperably damaged is premature. I would try to get a full copy of your labwork and post it up here, we have some very knowlegable guys who can provide feedback. I am no expert but I would wonder what are your prolactin levels? since a 19nor was involved in the cycle. Others with more knowlege than myself may have other ideas on what is causing the problems so perhaps they can provide more information/ideas.

Anyway its not even been 6 months yet...way too early to assume you will not improve from where you are currently.

**JD250** · 10-28-2012, 01:58 PM

This needs to be posted in the PCT forum, Swifto has several stickies over there and the advice you need, the problem you have right now is twofold.......first, find a proper pct protocol and second find a new doctor.

**marcus300** · 10-28-2012, 02:29 PM

This is why I try hard to explain the dangers of cycling before your natural test is fully developed. I have to admit your doctor is extreme and personally you don't need anything like 800mgs per wk, I'd seek advice of another doctor before taking any treatment from your current one.