Member
I remember reading somewhere about this 'window' that we have to get nutrients in post workout.. And then I remember reading somewhere else that that's just a myth. I don't much care because my diets spot on and I have my regular shake on time PWO. But just for general knowledge sake i'd like some clarity on that!
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
PWO window = BULLSHIT
Clear enuff?
Member
Exactly the kind of answer I like.Originally Posted by --->>405<<---
PWO window = BULLSHIT
Clear enuff?
Productive Member
Do you have anything to back that up 405? Any studies or something i can have a read through?
Banned
this is an excellent read..start here Bulkn..
The Top 10 Post Workout Nutrition Myths
by Dave Barr
http://www.t-n a t i o n.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/the_top_10_post_workout_nutrition_myths
Last edited by MickeyKnox; 09-08-2012 at 09:04 PM.
Associate Member
Some studies have shown pre-workout nutrition is more important than post workout.
Banned
totally agree bro. pre workout meals are twice a effective at stimulating muscle growth.
Banned
It's always worked well for me. And besides, i'd probably faint if i didn't get a meal in within an hour or so after my workout. I'm freakin starving within 30 minutes of leaving the gym.
Member
Wow !! I book marked that in my iPhone. Amazing read I highly suggest it.
Especially the part where he says "Canadian men are hung like moose."lolol
Banned
i know! and it comes complete with claim references for Bulkn to peruse while he's on the toilet (lol)
Senior Member
I don't know If I would call it a "window". It is IMO the most important meal of the day. I don't wait more than 30 mins after a workout to get carbs/protein. Immediately preferably.
Member
I have to disagree.. The most important meal of any day for anybody anywhere in any lifestyle is breakfast. IMO anyway.
But i do respect your opinion! And would like you to elaborate on this as too why?
Banned
i think the most important meal of the day, is the one you're eating...it could be your last.
Member
Well that was dark and depressing. And for someone who's TRYING TO DIET AND LEAN UP it sure makes me wanna throw that out the window. THANKS. Just kidding hahaha
Banned
haha
Senior Member
Ok, I agree Breakfast is most important meal. (Don't think I've missed one in 31 yrs) But PWO is the same idea. Both situations Glycogen levels are depleted. I do highly value eating PWO meal immediately after workout, where as breakfast no big deal to have some coffee and relax first.
Member
Well not exactly.. While sleeping you don't have the opportunity to nourish yourself therefore you're catabolic too the max. You're catabolic throughout a workout and after too unless you're on tons of gear.. But you can easily have a very good pre-workout meal which is supposedly more effective than post.
A friend of mine took second place in a provincial competition for woman's and she told me the same thing. She highly believes in pre workout liquids.. Although she didn't cite any studies so these statements haven't been validated.
So.. If you have a great pre workout carb up, I don't see why your glycogen levels would be THAT depleted.
Correct me if I'm wrong! I'm not stating these are facts just reiterating what I read and what not.
Member
I wish.. I eat my regular meals all day long and I'm pissed the next one has come around. I'm NEVER hungry but I force myself to eat 6-7 meals a day. I literally only get hungry at the 5-7 hour mark. That's how fvcked my fata$$ metabolism is.
But! I never miss a meal even though I have to force it.
Knowledgeable Member
I do not have studies in front of me. But the supplement industry has glued in our minds we need a shake asap after work out or we will see not grow.
Every study I have read shows your body is craving nutrients up to 5 hours after work out. You can go hm shower then get your meal on. A shake is a horrible pwo imo cause its digested in less then 1.5 hours where as eggs take 4 hours and red meat even longer. So I eat oats (complex carb) and a lean steak and my body is breaking it down for the next 6+ hours all the protein aminos found in meat etc.
However, some ppl are on strict diets and eat small meal often. Like Pete said he is starving after a work out, I typically as too. But taking a shower first is not going to make a difference on my gains.
Your bed time meal- this would depend on your fitness goals. And as said above your body is not in a catabolic state if you eat the right foods before you go to bed. Obviously quantity ans macro break down is diff depending on goals.
Again morning meal- cortisol levels are at its peak in the morning so I would get a well balanced meal quickly. (If your running gear the advise changes imo)
But a Morning meal is extremely important.
I would not be abke to pick the most important meal because every meal is important throughout the day. And making sure we balance our Marcos.
What good is a pre or pwo meal if we eat crap before and after or do not eat at all.
Beach Bodybuilder ~Elite-Hall of Fame~
There is no most important meal of the day. Unless you eat only 1 meal per day.
Get your diets dialled in an no one meal is more important than the other. It takes a loooooong time for your body to go catabolic. It would much rather feed off fat than muscle for fuel.
As for using whey and/or fast digesting carbs at breakfast and/or workout? I've never noticed any difference in using chicken and oats other than I don't get sweats/nausea using real food.
HIT YOUR MACRO'S AND CALS PERFECTLY! Then you needn't worry about what hype over supplements and the studies the supplement companies pay for in this billion dollar industry!!!!!
NO SOURCES GIVEN
The Transformer ~VET~Recognized Staff Winner - $100
Solid post....
Way too much bioscience going on in this thread lol
Senior Member
Nuim
Last edited by 951thompson; 09-10-2012 at 12:43 PM.
Member
Bro science goes on in every thread I think I've ever read... :P
But I agree. Good knowledge in that post.
AR's hose draggin' post whore~Recognized Member Winner - $100
I humbly agree
Solid post.
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
looks like everything has been covered already..
i suppose i could browse the internet to find articles that back-up my claim but anyone can do that to back up anything. IMO better is my own personal experience. over the past year my stats have gone from:
213lbs 22%bf (166.14lbs LBM) TO
202lbs 10%bf (181.8lbs LBM)
a decrease in 12%bf and increase of 15.66lbs LBM. (most of which was done after eliminating protein powder from my diet and replacing it with meat PWO. and i usually dont begin eating until 1hr PWO..sometimes longer..)
my around workout meal schedule looks like this:
0730-0830 meal 1
1200-1300 lift
1400 meal 2 (PWO) which as of late consists of ground beef (slow digesting protein) and whole wheat pasta (while bulking and oats while cutting -->> we wont even get into my 4 in a row carb cycle days of meat and broccoli only).. .
i suppose one could argue my results would have been better had i succumbed to what i consider to be the BS logic of insulin spikes and the one hr window of opportunity. i suppose we will never know! but ill take what i got!
AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
x3, great post. Stem, you still have my vote for the next round of Monitor's come promotion time!
OP - read my 'cutting 101' sticky - I address the PWO window quite a bit. http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...g#.UE4VJ7KPXIQ
Bro, I know we've butted heads a bit in another thread so please don't take this as me gunning for you - but I've mentioned to you before that posting links to other sites is against the rules, and ask that you please edit your post. I don't care if you type out the link or use 'dot com' to be honest; I know it sounds silly, but rules are rules.
Senior Member
Yeah sure it slipped my mind, my apologies.
x3, great post. Stem, you still have my vote for the next round of Monitor's come promotion time!
OP - read my 'cutting 101' sticky - I address the PWO window quite a bit. http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...g#.UE4VJ7KPXIQ
Bro, I know we've butted heads a bit in another thread so please don't take this as me gunning for you - but I've mentioned to you before that posting links to other sites is against the rules, and ask that you please edit your post. I don't care if you type out the link or use 'dot com' to be honest; I know it sounds silly, but rules are rules.
Knowledgeable Member
See this what makes this forum great. No defensiveness or arguing.
Props to you thompson
Anabolic Member
Mate,PWO window = BULLSHIT
Clear enuff?
Please understand i respect you and Gbrice and the rest. Your knowledge is good, no arugment there. But i have actually read books and articles, and actual studies, albeit several years old, that cited the anabolic window and the benefits of the 2:1 infusion during this time.
I've asked several times, since i've never seen any data on your side of the discussion, but I've asked for some data so i can see for myself, but for some reason, after I ask, the thread just kind of dies after that.
Again, I'm not trying to argue, as several knowledgable people, yourself included, have taken this position. I would just like to see the clinical data that supports this position and refute the position of the anabolic window.
Can you help me out?
Thanks mate!
Senior Member
Thank you for that sir :-)
Senior Member
I retract my statement
Last edited by 951thompson; 09-10-2012 at 01:39 PM.
Member
Damnit I didn't even get to read it
AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
Thanks brother, appreciate it.
x2
TR - I will try and dig some studies up to cite. I just never seem to spend enough CONSISTENT time on the board nowadays to follow through / follow up. I will try!
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
hey TR no problem man! here is an article from Lyle MacDonalds website (bodyrecomposition) addressing pre workout vs post workout nutrition. i think its important to note that what is not said (reference to an anabolic window in which nutrient intake is critical) IMO is as important as what is said.
Pre- vs. Post-Workout Nutrition – Q&A
Question: If protein and other nutrients take time to be broken down and utilized, does it really matter whether or not you have a PWO meal, if you’ve had a large meal relatively soon before your training? In other words, can a Pre-workout meal be just as beneficial as a post-workout meal (if not better)? Isn’t it important to have AA in your blood stream when training? And if there is a designated time for digestion, wouldn’t the other nutrients effectively help recovery, even though they were consumed before hand?
Answer: As usual this is going to be one of those longish ‘it depends’ kinds of answers and I’m probably going to go way off track in trying to answer it. As I discussed in The Protein Book, some recent research certainly suggested that pre-workout nutrients (carbs and protein, and I’ll assume the combination from here on out) were superior to post-workout nutrients in terms of promoting protein synthesis.
Other research wasn’t so positive but it did look like having nutrients in the system during/immediately after workout might be better than waiting until afterwards. Some of it depended on the form of nutrients (especially protein consumed); in one study immediate pre-workout essential amino acids (EAA’s) were better than post-workout EAA’s. In another, a whole protein taken right before training wasn’t superior to post-workout; this may have been an issue of digestion time.
I would note that protein synthesis isn’t the only goal here; maintaining high levels of training intensity during a workout is also key and pre- and/or during-workout nutrition can benefit folks there as well. A complication of that research was that most of it was done fasted, that is first thing in the morning, after folks hadn’t eaten for many hours. While that is relevant to some people (e.g. those who train first thing in the morning), many if not most trainees will have eaten something prior to the immediate pre-workout period. This complicates issues.
And the general picture that seems to be developing is that if someone is in the ‘fed’ state, that is they have eaten within a few hours of their workout, pre-workout nutrients don’t seem to provide any major benefit. This mainly has to do with the slow digestion time of whole foods. A relatively ‘normal’ whole-food meal is still releasing nutrients (carbs and protein) into the bloodstream as much as 4-5 hours after you eat it.
So if you’ve eaten within 2-3 hours of your workout, you already have nutrients in the system and probably don’t have much of a need to eat anything right beforehand. On the other hand, if it’s been 4 or more hours since your last meal (e.g. you eat lunch at 1pm and don’t get to the gym until 5-6pm), consuming something immediately before your workout is probably a good idea. Not only will you get some protein into the system that will be available during and right after training, a small amount of carbs will ensure that blood glucose is normalized so that you can have your best workout.
Depending on what type of training you’re doing, you may also find that during and post-workout nutrition is also beneficial. The length of the workout, type of workout, etc. all go into this determination.
So again, the answer is that it depends. Certainly there is some logic to having nutrients in the system during and right after training by consuming something right before workout. But this is complicated by whether or not you’ve eaten a whole-food meal in the few hours before your training. As above, if you’ve eaten within 2-3 hours, I wouldn’t bother with anything before your workout.
If it’s been 3-4 hours since your last meal, I’d suggest at least experimenting with eating something maybe 30 minutes before workout (this could be a protein bar, a small carb/protein drink) to normalize blood glucose and get some amino acids into the system is probably a good idea.
About 0.3-0.5 g/kg (0.14-0.23 g/lb) of both carbs and protein would be a good starting place. For a 180 lb lifter that’s 25-40 grams of carbs and protein combined about 30 minutes before your workout (to give the nutrients time to get into your system).
I would mention that a small percentage of people seem to get rebound blood sugar issues from consuming rapidly digesting nutrients right before a workout; if you’re one of them you’ll want to wait until you start warming up to eat anything. Exercise blunts insulin response and waiting until your warm-up to start eating anything limits the possibility of a negative blood glucose response.
I should also mention that one or two recent studies have intriguingly suggested that training in a completely fasted state might have benefits in terms of activation of some of the molecular markers involved in growth and adaptation to training. So far nobody has looked to see if this truly impacts on growth down the road so I’m remaining on the fence until more research becomes available. My gut hunch says that having nutrients in the system will be superior to not having them available but if research comes out against that, I’ll happily change my mind.
Hope that answers your question.
Anabolic Member
PWO window = BULLSHIT
Clear enuff?Thanks Gbrice!!TR - I will try and dig some studies up to cite. I just never seem to spend enough CONSISTENT time on the board nowadays to follow through / follow up. I will try!
405,
I understand the narrative. I've read other similar narratives before. But I wanted to take this out of the realm of simple narrative's, which quite often, no matter how respected the author is, are still matters of opinion, and get down to the nitty gritty of the actual clinical data, and finally put this debate to rest.
Here's the other matter. I have posted clinical data supporting the anabolic window in a thread about six months ago, very detailed, very convincing, BUT, the data is several years old, and i'm thinking maybe there has been more recent data since 2003 that may supercede this data due to new and improved understand/information?
My problem, like so many, is trying to seperate the BS data manufactured by the supplement industry and the data recorded by bona fide scientific studies. Hopefully the data that arises from my query will be sufficient to end this "endless" debate.
Last edited by Times Roman; 09-10-2012 at 03:14 PM.
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
fair enuff
not only do i respect the opinion of the author of the above narrative i have also read several of his books and successfully applied his knowledge to myself to achieve single digit body fat %.
the anabolic window of opportunity is not enuff of an issue with me to apply myself any further.. i will be interested in seeing what u come up with!
i would be interested in reading ur post from 6 months ag o if u can make it available..
AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
TR - I don't have time to sift through it all now, but i'm pretty sure Martin has studies posted or at least referenced on Leangains with specific regards to the PWO window hype. I personally hate his site because it's laid out terribly, but there is some good, compelling info in there if you can find it.
Anabolic Member
that's assuming i can even find it! 6 months of posting is a lot to look through. what i did is went to the back of the book where all the clinical data was, then i believe i looked it up on the internet, and posted several.fair enuff
not only do i respect the opinion of the author of the above narrative i have also read several of his books and successfully applied his knowledge to myself to achieve single digit body fat %.
the anabolic window of opportunity is not enuff of an issue with me to apply myself any further.. i will be interested in seeing what u come up with!
i would be interested in reading ur post from 6 months ag o if u can make it available..
this is the book that supports the anabolic wiindow position:
http://www.amazon.com/Nutrient-Timin.../dp/1591201411
the thing that made me respect the book was all the cites of clinical data, and not from a narrow few studies, but hundreds of them. And before I adopted their position, I actually looked the clinical data up on the internet and verified.
But I am always a little skeptical with anything. Two things I see that couuld change my mind....
1) More recent data that introduces knowledge that supercedes this data from around 2003
2) Somehow determine that the clinical studies I reviewed were financed by the supplement industry, which taints their findings.
If it is requested of me, i can put together a new thread, and I will cite various clinical studies that support the anabolic window position, and we can debate anew.
Not trying to be difficult. But if you know what i do for a living, you'd know I'm very analytical, and have a strong desire to verify data.
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
yeh i lookd thru there but like i told u before its ridiculous to navigate
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
from what i know of u TR, difficult doesnt even come to mind!
what do u do for a living?
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