Cut or Bulk? You decide

[gbrice75]

I have been on a strict cutting diet for the past 6 weeks, however I have been 'cutting' overall for 14 months now and have dropped 70+ lbs overall.

I am getting tired of having that 'scrawny' look and would love to finally start putting on some muscle, however I feel like I still have that smooth uncut look which is disappointing. I think I already know the answer to my own question, but am interested to hear your opinions.

Also, i'd appreciate a BF% guess, thanks!

[terraj]

Wow man, good progress from the last pics I saw.

Well done!

[oak2429]

bulk

[FireGuy]

Just keep doing what you are doing, I know you want results yesterday but this takes time. Enjoy the journey and keep up the good work. Buking is going to put you right back to where you started eventually.

[gbrice75]

Just keep doing what you are doing, I know you want results yesterday but this takes time. Enjoy the journey and keep up the good work. Buking is going to put you right back to where you started eventually.

I know I need to exercise patience....I've never been a patient person to begin with, so this is a huge struggle for me!

What exactly do you mean about bulking putting me right back where I started? Do you mean in terms of bodyfat?

[gbrice75]

Also - BUMP - still looking to hear other opinions, and looking for BF% guesses....

[bjpennnn]

man you look great, and it seems like you have the dedication after reading its already been 17 months. I would keep that motivation going and take fireguys advice and keep doing what your doing. You must feel like a new man.

[FireGuy]

I know I need to exercise patience....I've never been a patient person to begin with, so this is a huge struggle for me!

What exactly do you mean about bulking putting me right back where I started? Do you mean in terms of bodyfat?

Yep...

[teachme]

bulk

[gbrice75]

man you look great, and it seems like you have the dedication after reading its already been 17 months. I would keep that motivation going and take fireguys advice and keep doing what your doing. You must feel like a new man.

Thanks BJ...I am going to take FG's advice and continue to cut... at least for another couple of months and then i'll start another thread like this.

It's been 14 months, not 17 but yea - it feels like forever! The thing of it is I never in my life have lifted and eaten to GROW... i've always been in a mode of needing to lose bodyfat.... so I have no idea how my body will respond to eating high calories (cleanly).... I definitely know how it responds to high cals when i'm NOT lifting!

Anyway I appreciate the kind words and support!

[gbrice75]

Yep...

Hmm... well that wouldn't be ideal! Whenever I do start a clean bulk, I always pictured cycling bulk/cut/bulk/cut and so on.... maybe 3-4 month cycles for each. Am I really going to put back on a significant amount of bodyfat doing that? Ugh... I can't imagine getting abs only to lose them a few months later. =(

[FireGuy]

Hmm... well that wouldn't be ideal! Whenever I do start a clean bulk, I always pictured cycling bulk/cut/bulk/cut and so on.... maybe 3-4 month cycles for each. Am I really going to put back on a significant amount of bodyfat doing that? Ugh... I can't imagine getting abs only to lose them a few months later. =(

Dieting isnt like AAS usage. This cut-bulk-cut-bulk diet cycling is one of the worst enemies to peoples progress in my opinion. I have bulked twice in my life. Both times I was able to put in nearly 50lbs and both times when I dieted down for my next show I was only 2-3 lbs heavier. Could have had just as good if not better results from just slowly adding muscle and dropping fat over the same course of time. Even the best bulking diets usually end up adding muscle and fat at the same ratio then you have to diet your ass off to get the fat off and usually end up losing the majority of the muscle you attained anyways.

If you are an extreme ectomorph bulking may be what you need. This is not the case with you, you are genetically pre-dispositioned to store bodyfat at a higher percentage than the average person. Bulking is probably not something that will ever be a good choice for you.

[gbrice75]

Dieting isnt like AAS usage. This cut-bulk-cut-bulk diet cycling is one of the worst enemies to peoples progress in my opinion. Wow, really? I honestly didn't know there was any other way!

I have bulked twice in my life. Both times I was able to put in nearly 50lbs and both times when I dieted down for my next show I was only 2-3 lbs heavier. Could have had just as good if not better results from just slowly adding muscle and dropping fat over the same course of time. Even the best bulking diets usually end up adding muscle and fat at the same ratio then you have to diet your ass off to get the fat off and usually end up losing the majority of the muscle you attained anyways.I agree that would suck in a big way...

If you are an extreme ectomorph bulking may be what you need. This is not the case with you, you are genetically pre-dispositioned to store bodyfat at a higher percentage than the average person.How did you determine this? I'm not arguing, just curious...keep in mind that the 70+ lbs. I lost was put on over the course of almost 10 years with a TERRIBLE diet and zero exercise... I actually should probably have gotten much fatter!

Bulking is probably not something that will ever be a good choice for you.Ok, i'm getting really confused! Maybe i'm using the wrong terminology when I say 'bulking'. What I mean is that I am currently eating around 2000 calories a day. I am at a caloric deficit and know i'll never put on an ounce of muscle at that low intake... so once i'm happy with my bodyfat and up my calories to a surplus over my TDEE, wouldn't that be considered bulking? Again, maybe it's the wrong term. I just want to put on lean mass, not sure how I can do that without eating more than I burn??? Obviously somebody like me would have to eat ultra clean whether i'm cutting or 'bulking'...

Thanks for all of your guidance on this FG.... I know i'll make it eventually!

[Rockin Z28]

Dieting isnt like AAS usage. This cut-bulk-cut-bulk diet cycling is one of the worst enemies to peoples progress in my opinion. I have bulked twice in my life. Both times I was able to put in nearly 50lbs and both times when I dieted down for my next show I was only 2-3 lbs heavier. Could have had just as good if not better results from just slowly adding muscle and dropping fat over the same course of time. Even the best bulking diets usually end up adding muscle and fat at the same ratio then you have to diet your ass off to get the fat off and usually end up losing the majority of the muscle you attained anyways.

If you are an extreme ectomorph bulking may be what you need. This is not the case with you, you are genetically pre-dispositioned to store bodyfat at a higher percentage than the average person. Bulking is probably not something that will ever be a good choice for you.

lol so true..i am one of those people thats naturally destined to put on fat very quickly and i did a big bulker last year, gained at ton of fat and water and muscle..now that ive been cutting since last june i pretty much lost all the muscle and strength (although am leaner then before bulking) so we're screwed, just keep cutting my boy

[gbrice75]

lol so true..i am one of those people thats naturally destined to put on fat very quickly and i did a big bulker last year, gained at ton of fat and water and muscle..now that ive been cutting since last june i pretty much lost all the muscle and strength (although am leaner then before bulking) so we're screwed, just keep cutting my boy

I hear you man, but if I keep cutting forever, how will I ever put on any size/muscle?

[Twist]

I don't know fire's method (anxious to hear it) but once you get to a low bf% you should stay there for a while, then gradually increase calories (probably still be less than your tdee though - so technically you will be cutting) until you make a little progress and just put on weight super slow. I have only known one person who puts on fat really easily and he is always cutting, and he is still not cut. But he cuts at his tdee and does cardio to make up the rest... he is huge also.

[stevey_6t9]

Just keep doing what you are doing, I know you want results yesterday but this takes time. Enjoy the journey and keep up the good work. Buking is going to put you right back to where you started eventually.

What about a very clean bulk? With as little fat increase as possible?

[FireGuy]

Let me see if I can address most of this without leaving anything out.
GBrice-I assumed your propensity to store fat off of what you stated about already losing 70lbs. A very large percentage of people eat like crap and do zero exercise yet are still under 180lbs. They don’t have any muscle and are in terrible shape they just don’t accumulate fat as much as others. The fact that you did tells me you are more apt than others for fat gain. I could be wrong, just going on what the facts would suggest. You stated you gained all this fat over the course of 7 years. Usually time gained=time to return. I am not saying it’s going to take you a full 7 years but this is not something you should expect in a week, a month or even a year. It may well take you 3-5 years to build the lean, muscular look you are aiming for. I had nearly 6 years of being totally devoted to diet and training before I entered my first show in the novice class.

As far as cutting, bulking and lean bulking I guess many people have different definitions for what each imply. If you consider lean bulking to be slowly adding muscle while slowly losing fat, I am all for it. I assume that’s what 90% of the members on these forums are trying to achieve. This brings to light the question everyone asks, can you build muscle and lose fat at the same time. I have heard several people say “no” to this but I would say “yes”. First we need to define “time”. If we are talking about the exact same moment, maybe not but over the course of a month or longer I guarantee you people can add muscle while losing fat. I have hundreds of body comps and pictures that show this to be a fact. To accomplish this you should be close to your TDEE in calories, slightly over would be optimum and need to be doing cardio. I constantly hear how cardio inhibits muscle growth, I call BS on that as well. If your diet is dialed in cardio should not set back muscle growth.

Keeping your body fat in the 10-14% range should allow you to add all the muscle you can. Going over that just means you are overeating and/or eating the wrong foods. Also, I am a firm believer in the ability to lower your bodies “fat thermostat” What I mean is the longer you stay lean the more of a chance you have at adjusting your bodies homeostasis to a lower bodyfat %.
Sticking with a solid eating, training and nutrition plan should enable you to naturally gain a good 5lbs of muscle while losing at least that many lbs of fat per year. You may be able to do even a bit better than that due to the fact you are just starting out. Do that for 3 years in a row and you will have added 15lbs of muscle while losing at least that much fat along the way. That will completely transform your physique.

[gbrice75]

Fireguy - firstly, thank you again for taking your time to respond, and in such detail! Without guys like you on these boards, most of us would be lost for sure. I just have a few scattered questions/comments, then I will leave you alone! Thanks again man.

Let me see if I can address most of this without leaving anything out.
GBrice-I assumed your propensity to store fat off of what you stated about already losing 70lbs. A very large percentage of people eat like crap and do zero exercise yet are still under 180lbs. They don’t have any muscle and are in terrible shape they just don’t accumulate fat as much as others. The fact that you did tells me you are more apt than others for fat gain. I could be wrong, just going on what the facts would suggest. Understood, and that makes perfect sense. It's too bad because I was a SUPER skinny kid. Damn the day I got my license! You stated you gained all this fat over the course of 7 years. Usually time gained=time to return. I am not saying it’s going to take you a full 7 years but this is not something you should expect in a week, a month or even a year. It may well take you 3-5 years to build the lean, muscular look you are aiming for. I understand, and am willing to put that time in if I know in the end it will pay off... there are just so many times where it doesn't seem like it is/will - I know alot of it is head games I play with myself. I had nearly 6 years of being totally devoted to diet and training before I entered my first show in the novice class.

As far as cutting, bulking and lean bulking I guess many people have different definitions for what each imply. If you consider lean bulking to be slowly adding muscle while slowly losing fat, I am all for it. I assume that’s what 90% of the members on these forums are trying to achieve. This brings to light the question everyone asks, can you build muscle and lose fat at the same time. I have heard several people say “no” to this but I would say “yes”. First we need to define “time”. If we are talking about the exact same moment, maybe not but over the course of a month or longer I guarantee you people can add muscle while losing fat. Yes, this would be ideal for me. I have hundreds of body comps and pictures that show this to be a fact. To accomplish this you should be close to your TDEE in calories, slightly over would be optimum and need to be doing cardio. I constantly hear how cardio inhibits muscle growth, I call BS on that as well. If your diet is dialed in cardio should not set back muscle growth. Is this something you'd suggest doing right away, or should I continue at a caloric deficit until my bodyfat is better in check?

Keeping your body fat in the 10-14% range should allow you to add all the muscle you can. Going over that just means you are overeating and/or eating the wrong foods. Also, I am a firm believer in the ability to lower your bodies “fat thermostat” What I mean is the longer you stay lean the more of a chance you have at adjusting your bodies homeostasis to a lower bodyfat %.
Sticking with a solid eating, training and nutrition plan should enable you to naturally gain a good 5lbs of muscle while losing at least that many lbs of fat per year. I can see 5lbs of muscle gain in a year, but 5lbs of fat loss seems low to me? Certainly I could be way wrong here, just wondering... is this simply because we're going for 'the best of both worlds' and not focusing on fat loss alone? If I were to stay at a deficit, could I expect bigger fat loss over the course of a year? You may be able to do even a bit better than that due to the fact you are just starting out. Do that for 3 years in a row and you will have added 15lbs of muscle while losing at least that much fat along the way. That will completely transform your physique.

Fire, thanks again. You are an inspiration to many of us on this board and we always appreciate your advice and whatever you have to offer.

[gbrice75]

SHAMELESS BUMP!!! I'm looking for BF% estimate guys, help me out!

[CaliPhotog]

13%-14% is a rough guess, but Fireguy is dead on with this one! It may be a personal thing that works for some and not others, but I tried to bulk/cut and the results where not that spectacular. It seemed like it took me 10-12 months to gain 3-4 lbs. once all was said and done. I could do that with a clean diet and gradual increase in macros and not have to worry about cutting. Once you get to where you want to be maintain and then adjust from there.

[CaliPhotog]

BTW, looking GREAT man! Very very very well done!

[6ft5]

Good info! it is common for folks to think bulking and cutting, bulking and cuting is the only was to gain sum muscles, that is not true in most cases. I've only really bulked one time. I got so far out there it took a long time to get lean all natty of course. I fully believe in adjusting and tweeking a lean diet to get maximum detectable gains. Whyle one looks and feels good.

[gbrice75]

Thanks Cali and 6ft - I may try the CKD diet as a last ditch effort to get off the last 10lbs of bodyfat; I feel like I need a 'clean slate' before I can start putting on muscle. Having said that, I won't be 'bulking' as I originally imagined it; instead, I will probably start around 2500 calories as a starting point (that's about my maintenance) and up it by a couple hundred from there.

[6ft5]

Imo think u look good, and pretty lean. I just try and stay under 15bf its still pretty easy to cut off. 10bf or less leaves me a bit tierd. I'm working on holding lower bf and try and stay awake. Lol. good work, good frame, keep it going!

[gbrice75]

Imo think u look good, and pretty lean. I just try and stay under 15bf its still pretty easy to cut off. 10bf or less leaves me a bit tierd. I'm working on holding lower bf and try and stay awake. Lol. good work, good frame, keep it going!

Thanks again for the encouragement bro!

[big an rich]

I'd keep cutting bro. I know why you started... Same as me. I'm in the same situation as you, I've lost 42lbs of fat (possibly some muscle too) and am now about 10-11%. I keep thinking I'm getting too slim (now 180lbs @ 5'11") but know for a fact that if I don't get to my goal then it will be a waste of a year of cutting. Get totally shredded then keep bf low for a while and slowly manipulate your macros until you gain muscle. Keep the cardio up, lift more each week and eat slightly more than you need (lots of EFA, protein and low carb) and you'll tranform yourself

[big an rich]

BTW, you've done very very well thus far, it would be a shame not to get a completely dirty/dry and shredded look to top off all that work

[gbrice75]

BTW, you've done very very well thus far, it would be a shame not to get a completely dirty/dry and shredded look to top off all that work

Thank you for both posts man, I appreciate your feedback and encouragement. Yes, it would be a shame after all this work to get so close but not reach my goal.

I am actually embarking on a CKD type diet on Monday in hopes to get rid of that last 4% - 5% (depending on what my BF really is right now) to bring me down to 10% which I feel i'll be pretty happy with.

I've enjoyed eating as clean as I have been on this 40/40/20 diet, but I personally feel it's gone as far as it can for me. I think i'm extremely carb sensitive, and with that this may not be the answer for me. We'll see how CKD goes; i'm leary because it just seems wrong, but it's not some new voodoo or something.

One question - when you say eat slightly more than I need, do you mean slightly above maintenance? Not to sound ignorant, but how could/would I lose fat without a caloric deficit, let alone an increase above TDEE?

[jackd1509]

Bulk it up

[mg1228]

Thank you for both posts man, I appreciate your feedback and encouragement. Yes, it would be a shame after all this work to get so close but not reach my goal.

I am actually embarking on a CKD type diet on Monday in hopes to get rid of that last 4% - 5% (depending on what my BF really is right now) to bring me down to 10% which I feel i'll be pretty happy with.

I've enjoyed eating as clean as I have been on this 40/40/20 diet, but I personally feel it's gone as far as it can for me. I think i'm extremely carb sensitive, and with that this may not be the answer for me. We'll see how CKD goes; i'm leary because it just seems wrong, but it's not some new voodoo or something.

One question - when you say eat slightly more than I need, do you mean slightly above maintenance? Not to sound ignorant, but how could/would I lose fat without a caloric deficit, let alone an increase above TDEE?

just came across this---big diff in last pics i saw of u--that diets working for u---stick with it imo---its only been 2 months---good results came for me between mo 2 and 3---cut a 100 cals off or add another cardio session


to answer that question in bold---slightly above maint cals---create a deficit with cardio, but hes not talking about now---hes talking about once u have hit ur goal and want to add muscle

[gbrice75]

[/B]
just came across this---big diff in last pics i saw of u--that diets working for u---stick with it imo---its only been 2 months---good results came for me between mo 2 and 3---cut a 100 cals off or add another cardio session


to answer that question in bold---slightly above maint cals---create a deficit with cardio, but hes not talking about now---hes talking about once u have hit ur goal and want to add muscle

Thanks for the clarification on the TDEE question MG!

It's weird, maybe the pics are good lighting or something - when I look in the mirror I don't see any changes... and now if I DO stick with this diet, i'm stuck with $100 worth of high fat food that I could NEVER work into a 40/40/20 ... ahhhh dilemmas!!!

[mg1228]

look at ur bfore pics---then the current pics

try the high fat thing---it will prob work--if nothing else it will make ur body wonder what fck is going on

[6ft5]

Thanks for the clarification on the TDEE question MG!

It's weird, maybe the pics are good lighting or something - when I look in the mirror I don't see any changes... and now if I DO stick with this diet, i'm stuck with $100 worth of high fat food that I could NEVER work into a 40/40/20 ... ahhhh dilemmas!!!

Lol! Put em in your freezer, and portion em out. On weekends I always try n cook a bit extra so I can mix my food up. My new ez recipet- chick/vegg w/ wheat pasta red sauce. Add fat free cottage cheese it tastes like chikn lasangia. Lol! Add sum fat w ur low fat. Maybe on a cardio day for energy, and to not drop to many lbs.?

[6ft5]

look at ur bfore pics---then the current pics

try the high fat thing---it will prob work--if nothing else it will make ur body wonder what fck is going on

Yea, u been cutting for a bit. Maybe shake it up a bit w a fat meal every once in a whyle. More muscle=more cal burning! If I'm feeln a bit run down ill eat real bacon. Mmmm bacon

[SlimJoe]

you look great! keep cutting i say.

[gbrice75]

Thanks guys. I bought all my groceries and keto sticks ($30, ouch!) for this CKD diet, so i'm committed for a while. I'm leaving for a week in Mexico in 1.5 months and am hoping to see some visible results by then. If it's working well for me, I will get right back on when I return from Mexico. If not, I will probably slit my throat...

[SlimJoe]

haha youve gained some good results up to now bro good luck with this one i will keep a look out for your progress.

[mg1228]

if u gotta have it that quick---get some test prop and tren ace and keep eatin the same--that will def do it--Lol

[gbrice75]

if u gotta have it that quick---get some test prop and tren ace and keep eatin the same--that will def do it--Lol

I wish I could buddy, believe me! But alas, fishing for sources here is against the rules...