For those who think gains stay.....

[dec11]

Over the past 7wks I have ran a total of 14500mgs of AAS made up from drol, dbol, tren a, tren e and all of the main test esters. i was leading up to a deadlift meet.

i put on a total of just over 23lbs in this period and discontinued everything last Sat morn. This Sat morn im down 10lbs in weight already and by next Sat morn I can guarantee i'll be down at least another 10lbs.

now, i did knock off 1000cals of my pre comp diet but even still, this goes to show that there is no such thing as maybe doing a cycle, be that bit bigger and be done with it.

oh no, it doesnt work that way.

if you're a novice and esp if you're a young novice, think twice........

[btern]

thats a big drop mate, must have had a hell of a lot of water retention to drop that much that quick, ive always held onto most of my gains just by following a good pct,diet,and training like an animal...... howd the comp go?

[dec11]

thats a big drop mate, must have had a hell of a lot of water retention to drop that much that quick, ive always held onto most of my gains just by following a good pct,diet,and training like an animal...... howd the comp go?

yeah i won it and set a national record. man i dont even pct, im on trt, it still drops off. the only time i maintained above 100kgs bw was when i was self prescribing trt at 250mg pw, which was way too much.

you must be a one in million genetic freak, everyone i know loses virtually all their cycle gains

[btern]

congrats on the win bro. yeah maybe its just the genes guess iam lucky. back before i started cyclin i could cruise at 98-100kg naturally with between 10-12%body fat.... three years ago i was 68kg

[dec11]

congrats on the win bro. yeah maybe its just the genes guess iam lucky. back before i started cyclin i could cruise at 98-100kg naturally with between 10-12%body fat.... three years ago i was 68kg

yep, a jammy bastid as i suspected

im more of a strength freak anyhow, couldnt really give a monkey's about size anymore. i like feeling light on my feet, i could barely walk 200yds without lower back and calf pumps destroying me, coming up to that peak last week.

[Metalject]

The idea that it's possible to do a cycle or two and keep most of the muscle mass you gained is a bit of a fantasy. The problem is a lot of guys gauge progress by weight gained and how full they look. They run a cycle, gain 20lbs, run a PCT and eat like a horse and hold most of the weight and assume the they've gained a butt load of muscle...unfortunately it doesn't quite work this way.

Regardless of how many cycles you have done, when we're talking about large amounts of muscle mass, without the hormones in the body to support it, the same hormones that helped you build it that mass isn't going to survive. Look at all the pro bodybuilders. When they come off for long periods of time they shrink. They may very well still be muscular, some more muscular than the average man, they have amazing genetics and are often naturally muscular, but they still shrink. I can think of a few pro bodybuilders that I've associated regularly with over the years and these guys will normally come off everything after the Olympia. The point, they shrink, a lot.

[btern]

ha ha yeah im a bit over the size thing too just been maintaining the 98kg mark and feel great once i start to get over 100kg i get the sore lower back thing aswell and just plain out feel like a lasy prick, im just aiming getting my bdy fat down to single figures!! sitting at 12% now.

[dec11]

ha ha yeah im a bit over the size thing too just been maintaining the 98kg mark and feel great once i start to get over 100kg i get the sore lower back thing aswell and just plain out feel like a lasy prick, im just aiming getting my bdy fat down to single figures!! sitting at 12% now.

yeah, our individual frames only grew to support so much weight and esp weight around joints, over loading the whole thing is bound to bring repercussions. 90kg and 10% will do me just fine

[btern]

sounds like a good goal man!! best of luck

[kronik420]

Over the past 7wks I have ran a total of 14500mgs of AAS made up from drol, dbol, tren a, tren e and all of the main test esters. i was leading up to a deadlift meet.

i put on a total of just over 23lbs in this period and discontinued everything last Sat morn. This Sat morn im down 10lbs in weight already and by next Sat morn I can guarantee i'll be down at least another 10lbs.

now, i did knock off 1000cals of my pre comp diet but even still, this goes to show that there is no such thing as maybe doing a cycle, be that bit bigger and be done with it.

oh no, it doesnt work that way.

if you're a novice and esp if you're a young novice, think twice........

this is exactly why you keep your calorie intake high after you've completed your cycle........
what did you think was going to happen when you knocked off 1000 calories??
IMO, you should be able to keep at least 50% of your gains after your cycle... if not your doing it wrong.

[kronik420]

here's an extract from marcus's article:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...*#.UF1-QbLiboE

Nutrition - is another area which we must focus on to help maintain the new found gains, after a cycle androgen levels are going to be lower than normal even with the above strategies. We have to maximise the anabolic hormones as much as possible while our system is recovering. First we need to calculate the change in the new calories needed for the new tissue gained during the cycle and support the new tissue, a person who under eats to their requirements will be stripped of the muscle mass very quickly.

Overeating has been shown in numerous studies to maximise these factors. Over maintenance calories are needed to promote the anabolic edge, dietary fat has an influence on androgen secretion, monounsaturated and saturated fat raises testosterone levels but polyunsaturated fat does not so a healthy diet containing O'3 and O'6 will help in this period. Eat clean and feed the new tissue with abundance of calories but always have in mind of muscle building foods and not the sugar rich alternatives we can easily lean to in this period. As testosterone returns to normal and recovery is nearly there, eating over the calories can be lowered to maintenance of the new found muscle what's been gained during the cycle. Never start dieting in the recovery stage it will strip you of your hard earned tissue.

[dec11]

this is exactly why you keep your calorie intake high after you've completed your cycle........
what did you think was going to happen when you knocked off 1000 calories??
IMO, you should be able to keep at least 50% of your gains after your cycle... if not your doing it wrong.

ah jez, i was expecting this ill-informed rubbish.

come back at me with your text books after you've been training for at least 10yrs.....

sorry then kiddo, you're right and im wrong, sure after 21yrs of lifting weights what would i know anyway?

[kronik420]

ah jez, i was expecting this ill-informed rubbish.

come back at me with your text books after you've been training for at least 10yrs.....

sorry then kiddo, you're right and im wrong, sure after 21yrs of lifting weights what would i know anyway?

unless your past your genetic potential, keeping gains should be more than possible...

[dec11]

unless your past your genetic potential, keeping gains should be more than possible...

and after 21yrs where do you reckon i'd be at with genetic potential?

no harm to you but you have nowhere near enough experience with this. the point of this thread is to point out to ppl that its 90% water and it goes bye bye afterwards. you seriously think you can keep 50% of every cycle?! so you going to be 500lbs ripped in 10yrs time?

steroids do not build muscle that can be matured and kept, period and if you think they do, then keep dreaming. even if you possibly even could eat 5000cals everyday do you still think you can maintain it? no, you cant, you havent the ness amount of hormone in your system that comes with artificial supply.

you're thinking in a fallacy young man

[dec11]

oh and btw i was at 6000cals, so you saying 5000cals is not enough to maintain 100kgs, with prob around 88 of those lean weight?

[kronik420]

soo blast and cruise... gotchya.

and not 500, but hopefully 280ish.

[kronik420]

oh and btw i was at 6000cals, so you saying 5000cals is not enough to maintain 100kgs, with prob around 88 of those lean weight?

depends on what the 5000 cals is from i guess..

[dec11]

soo blast and cruise... gotchya.

and not 500, but hopefully 280ish.

i didnt advise that.......

depends on what the 5000 cals is from i guess..

ah come on, now you're just being silly, who do you think you're taking to here?


what do you weigh now? and bf %?

[kronik420]

220 20% 6ft

[dec11]

sounds like a good goal man!! best of luck

cheers, i plan to be deading over 300kgs @ 90kg weight class, this time nxt year

[dec11]

220 20%

height?

[bigZthedestroyer]

solid words of advice..

P.S. you're a beast

[kronik420]

height?

6 ft.

[dec11]

6 ft.

you're being very optimistic with that goal, im not trying to discourage but i dont see it and if you ever got to that lean then you should be standing on a world stage. those lbs get harder and harder to find and your health will get more and more compromised on the the absolute shitload of gear you would need to ever have a prayer of getting to 280lbs.......

[dec11]

solid words of advice..

P.S. you're a beast

thanks man, its a never ending battle lol

[dec11]

The idea that it's possible to do a cycle or two and keep most of the muscle mass you gained is a bit of a fantasy. The problem is a lot of guys gauge progress by weight gained and how full they look. They run a cycle, gain 20lbs, run a PCT and eat like a horse and hold most of the weight and assume the they've gained a butt load of muscle...unfortunately it doesn't quite work this way.

Regardless of how many cycles you have done, when we're talking about large amounts of muscle mass, without the hormones in the body to support it, the same hormones that helped you build it that mass isn't going to survive. Look at all the pro bodybuilders. When they come off for long periods of time they shrink. They may very well still be muscular, some more muscular than the average man, they have amazing genetics and are often naturally muscular, but they still shrink. I can think of a few pro bodybuilders that I've associated regularly with over the years and these guys will normally come off everything after the Olympia. The point, they shrink, a lot.

exactly. i really dont know why some geezers are afraid to admit the gains dont stay?????

steroids should be done for a reason and if that reason is to pose around clubs etc then its a piss poor reason i reckon.

[kronik420]

you're being very optimistic with that goal, im not trying to discourage but i dont see it and if you ever got to that lean then you should be standing on a world stage. those lbs get harder and harder to find and your health will get more and more compromised on the the absolute shitload of gear you would need to ever have a prayer of getting to 280lbs.......

i have a habit of proving people wrong. but yea you are right about that^^

[dec11]

i have a habit of proving people wrong. but yea you are right about that^^

if you ever did manage to get to it you'd certainly never maintain it without a life long big dose per week commitment, hello early coffin. if i were you i'd set myself on a well ripped out 240lbs

im not naturally big, im all strength and always was due to 16yrs natty plifting. i once got up to 235lbs (im only 5'9) but fvck me, i was aerobically useless and had more aches and pains than a 80yr old man.

get to a nice size that you are fully mobile and HEALTHY at. things like high BP etc due to carrying weight are no fvcking joke, believe me, you'll hate it.

[Metalject]

exactly. i really dont know why some geezers are afraid to admit the gains dont stay?????

steroids should be done for a reason and if that reason is to pose around clubs etc then its a piss poor reason i reckon.

I agree, that's probably one of the worst reasons to use steroids. I don't have anything against people using them for that or similar reasons, to each their own, but those guys rarely last. In most cases, if you're working out with or without steroids simply to look better for women, if your reasons don't evolve beyond that you won't last. You'll either give up or go back and forth with a lot of inconsistency...normally the former.

....and most are afraid to admit the truth about losing gains for two reasons. They're delusional and associate weight with gains as I mentioned earlier, or they hear so many guys talking about how they keep 800lbs of muscle after every cycle (they have magical PCT programs) and they're ashamed that they don't have this magical ability themselves.

[Metalject]

i have a habit of proving people wrong. but yea you are right about that^^

If the top bodybuilders on earth cannot achieve what you are talking about, why would you be any different?

[dec11]

I agree, that's probably one of the worst reasons to use steroids. I don't have anything against people using them for that or similar reasons, to each their own, but those guys rarely last. In most cases, if you're working out with or without steroids simply to look better for women, if your reasons don't evolve beyond that you won't last. You'll either give up or go back and forth with a lot of inconsistency...normally the former.

....and most are afraid to admit the truth about losing gains for two reasons. They're delusional and associate weight with gains as I mentioned earlier, or they hear so many guys talking about how they keep 800lbs of muscle after every cycle (they have magical PCT programs) and they're ashamed that they don't have this magical ability themselves.

haha, so true mate and the funny thing is that 75% of us are carry excess bf and if we all bothered our arses to drop down to around the 10% mark we'd all look much bigger anyway

fvck me, i used to work alongside a PT who did bb comps, he was 12st and prob 8% and i was 15st and around 15% at the time, he looked twice the fvcking size of me!! the big joke was i did all the heavy lifting and he got the size from it lol

[kronik420]

If the top bodybuilders on earth cannot achieve what you are talking about, why would you be any different?

what was i talking about again..

[AD]

But dec, with more than 20 yrs of training, obviously you've long passed your genetic natural human's limit. Which is why you need the juice to keep you at your superhuman level. But in your first statement, you asked young novices to take note. Slightly confusing, cos its those novices who are way below genetic limit that stand a chance to keep their gains.

If you could share your experiences, in your opinion, how many yrs of training did it take you to hit the genetic limit? In your case, i believe you think its around 90kg?

[dec11]

here's an extract from marcus's article:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...*#.UF1-QbLiboE

Nutrition - is another area which we must focus on to help maintain the new found gains, after a cycle androgen levels are going to be lower than normal even with the above strategies. We have to maximise the anabolic hormones as much as possible while our system is recovering. First we need to calculate the change in the new calories needed for the new tissue gained during the cycle and support the new tissue, a person who under eats to their requirements will be stripped of the muscle mass very quickly.

Overeating has been shown in numerous studies to maximise these factors. Over maintenance calories are needed to promote the anabolic edge, dietary fat has an influence on androgen secretion, monounsaturated and saturated fat raises testosterone levels but polyunsaturated fat does not so a healthy diet containing O'3 and O'6 will help in this period. Eat clean and feed the new tissue with abundance of calories but always have in mind of muscle building foods and not the sugar rich alternatives we can easily lean to in this period. As testosterone returns to normal and recovery is nearly there, eating over the calories can be lowered to maintenance of the new found muscle what's been gained during the cycle. Never start dieting in the recovery stage it will strip you of your hard earned tissue.

there's no doubting that Marcus knows this world inside out, i still go to him for AAS advice and will do for as long as he is on here. i do think you're taking his words out of context a bit though. there's no way i should have dropped that weight so fast on 5000cals per day, what i was hitting home was fluid loss which makes up the majority of the gains (poss all the gains in some cases like mine), maybe i should have made that clearer in the OP

[dec11]

But dec, with more than 20 yrs of training, obviously you've long passed your genetic natural human's limit. Which is why you need the juice to keep you at your superhuman level. But in your first statement, you asked young novices to take note. Slightly confusing, cos its those novices who are way below genetic limit that stand a chance to keep their gains.

If you could share your experiences, in your opinion, how many yrs of training did it take you to hit the genetic limit? In your case, i believe you think its around 90kg?

you miss the point, steroids wont build muscle as your body did when laying down genetic limits, all you do is enhance that muscle. take a natty lifter, goes at it hammer and tongs for 5yrs and then discovers he is really into ballroom dancing and shit. that muscle will slowly and surely disappear eventually, it isnt being used, the body thinks 'sod this free loading shit' and off it goes.

im not sure whats confusing, i meant novices as in ppl who are contemplating AAS and they shouldnt be in the fallacy of thinking they'll blow up and just stay that way.

hard for me to say about genetic limit due to lifestyle factors, i competed at 75kg class powerlifting for around 9yrs, i quit smoking and within 6mths i was 90kg class, i then progressed to 100kg class (usually 95-98kg weight, i couldnt get any heavier) within 4 or so years. im not and never was a body builder, i trained for strength not body weight and size.

i almost pulled 300kgs last week (just missed the lock out) and i can probably safely say id have trouble moving it off the floor in a few weeks time. so on that basis, can you say that my 6wks AAS cycle up to almost locking that 300kgs, was a permanent gain? no, it sure as hell wasnt. but i know with a strict cut, permanent HGH and graduated strength training for the next year, another big cycle this time next year, i'll be pulling over 300kgs @90kgs (was 100.4kgs last sat at comp)

hope that puts things in a somewhat clearer light.

i'd also like to point out that its a non testing federation, one doesnt cheat!

[kronik420]

If the top bodybuilders on earth cannot achieve what you are talking about, why would you be any different?

its just a goal (which will most likely change over time), and idk what their stats are, nor do i care..

and btw, setting your goals higher than what you think is possible is not exactly a bad thing to do...just a tip.

[AD]

Dec. Imagine for a second you go off all gear now except trt dose. The correct dose. Like you said your strength will drop. You wont even be able to shift the 300kg. What do you think your lift will drop to even with you training your butt off? 250?

Now think back to before you started the juice. Years ago i assume. How much could you lift then completely natty?

Which dec do you think can lift more?

[dec11]

Dec. Imagine for a second you go off all gear now except trt dose. The correct dose. Like you said your strength will drop. You wont even be able to shift the 300kg. What do you think your lift will drop to even with you training your butt off? 250?

Now think back to before you started the juice. Years ago i assume. How much could you lift then completely natty?

Which dec do you think can lift more?

all circumstantial, if you dont want to believe what i say then thats up to you, no point in playing silly games over it mate.

but for the record, ill still pull 270-280kg on trt (it is a proper medical trt btw, one that puts men at normal physical dose not a crazy cycle dose like as in the US). and ive pulled 260kg natty @97kgs bw.

[dec11]

its just a goal (which will most likely change over time), and idk what their stats are, nor do i care..

and btw, setting your goals higher than what you think is possible is not exactly a bad thing to do...just a tip.

man are you seriously giving tips to ppl who have been doing almost as long as you've lived on this planet???

and heres a tip, over setting goals leads to major disappointment and most probably a lean towards too many drugs............

[freddy1418]

and after 21yrs where do you reckon i'd be at with genetic potential?

no harm to you but you have nowhere near enough experience with this. the point of this thread is to point out to ppl that its 90% water and it goes bye bye afterwards. you seriously think you can keep 50% of every cycle?! so you going to be 500lbs ripped in 10yrs time?

steroids do not build muscle that can be matured and kept, period and if you think they do, then keep dreaming. even if you possibly even could eat 5000cals everyday do you still think you can maintain it? no, you cant, you havent the ness amount of hormone in your system that comes with artificial supply.

you're thinking in a fallacy young man

Od have to think your wrong cause how do the pros do it... they get to 300+ pounds under 7%bf and are monsters