NPP or Masteron with tren?

[AR's King Silabolin]

My cycle will include test ofcourse, and a dianabol/anadrol changeup.

But its a SBC and im adding more.
I will do tren a in week 3-4 and 7-8.

Week 5-6 i will use masteron or npp. What would u go for? I think masteron cause we need a dht but npp is more anabolic but maybe not as different compared to tren as mast?

[numbere]

Mast is a very poor muscle builder.

It's primarily a muscle conditioner.

Honestly I mean no offense by saying this but I doubt your bf will be low enough to get the full benefit of mast.

Plus your kind of obsessive compulsive about cholesterol and mast is notorious for wreaking cholesterol.

Imo run NPP.

[AR's King Silabolin]

Mast is a very poor muscle builder.

It's primarily a muscle conditioner.

Honestly I mean no offense by saying this but I doubt your bf will be low enough to get the full benefit of mast.

Plus your kind of obsessive compulsive about cholesterol and mast is notorious for wreaking cholesterol.

Imo run NPP.

Last first. Your rigth about colestrol. I have been struggling but i have changed my diett. Didnt eat any veggies before. BB suggested my diett was the explanation. Bur havent checked it yet. But i will do precycle BW.
And another point. Ive red a couple of pubmed reports suggesting that aasrelated cholestrolworsening do not thicken the arteriewalls.

No ur rigth. Iguess i will not get below 12% but i have cycled masteron before with 16/17% with good results. And my maingoal is not to benefit from masteron the most. But to work in synergy and squise the most out of tren.
And in lack of other options it must be masteron or npp. Dont know other injectables which would fit in week 2 5 and 6.

[numbere]

I think nandrolone and tren have an awesome synergistic effect when used together.

Depending on what doses you'll be running you might consider taking 10mg/d of nolva as a precautionary measure.

The affect elevated cholesterol from AAS has on arterial walls would be dependent on the size (short vs long) of the cholesterol molecules in your blood stream. Which would be largely dependent on diet.

Elevated cholesterol isn't necessarily bad, rather it depends on the size of the molecules present.

Large particulates are good, it's the small particulates that damage arteries and allow calcium deposits to form.

[AR's King Silabolin]

I think nandrolone and tren have an awesome synergistic effect when used together.

Depending on what doses you'll be running you might consider taking 10mg/d of nolva as a precautionary measure.

The affect elevated cholesterol from AAS has on arterial walls would be dependent on the size (short vs long) of the cholesterol molecules in your blood stream. Which would be largely dependent on diet.

Elevated cholesterol isn't necessarily bad, rather it depends on the size of the molecules present.

Large particulates are good, it's the small particulates that damage arteries and allow calcium deposits to form.

Interesting. Didnt get that info from pubmed. Maybe aas create large particles then. And i think i remember Bostin said that too. As long as your diett is cholestrolfriendly, u shouldnt woory too much about aas and cholestrol.

But wouldnt a dht and 19nor have more synergy than two 19nors?

I def will consider your nolvatip in my SBC

[numbere]

Interesting. Didnt get that info from pubmed. Maybe aas create large particles then. And i think i remember Bostin said that too. As long as your diett is cholestrolfriendly, u shouldnt woory too much about aas and cholestrol.

A VAP cholesterol test will tell you the size the size of the cholesterol particulates in your blood.

But wouldnt a dht and 19nor have more synergy than two 19nors?

That question is above my pay grade.

[AR's King Silabolin]

That question is above my pay grade.

Ok. You are not a Vet yet so....

Kidding...thanks man. Indept info as always

[Mr.BB]

Elevated cholesterol isn't necessarily bad, rather it depends on the size of the molecules present.

Large particulates are good, it's the small particulates that damage arteries and allow calcium deposits to form.

Sorry to burst you guys bubble here, but the facts are not exactly as described above (although a particular number of ppl consistently try to give slight changes to reality).

It is true that large LDL is less harmful than small LDL, but to say that large particles "are good" is wrong. The graph below depicts how much:



from: Low-Density Lipoprotein and High-Density Lipoprotein Particle Subclasses Predict Coronary Events and Are Favorably Changed by Gemfibrozil Therapy in the Veterans Affairs High-Density Lipoprotein Intervention Trial



EDIT: Ok, what the graph is saying is that large LDL particles increase the risk of Coronary Heart Disease in 31%, instead of 44% from the small LDL.

[hammerheart]

Is that VAP cholesterol test even available abroad? I can only find some articles but not actual labs providing it. I'm concerned about CV disease since three of my grandparents have it.

[AR's King Silabolin]

Sorry to burst you guys bubble here, but the facts are not exactly as described above (although a particular number of ppl consistently try to give slight changes to reality).

It is true that large LDL is less harmful than small LDL, but to say that large particles "are good" is wrong. The graph below depicts how much:



from: Low-Density Lipoprotein and High-Density Lipoprotein Particle Subclasses Predict Coronary Events and Are Favorably Changed by Gemfibrozil Therapy in the Veterans Affairs High-Density Lipoprotein Intervention Trial



EDIT: Ok, what the graph is saying is that large LDL particles increase the risk of Coronary Heart Disease in 31%, instead of 44% from the small LDL.

Yes. But the mainpoint here. Do u think the pubmedreports, which say aasworsened cholerstrol do not thicken the arterie walls, are wrong?

[Mr.BB]

Yes. But the mainpoint here. Do u think the pubmedreports, which say aasworsened cholerstrol do not thicken the arterie walls, are wrong?

If I remember correctly the study you posted a while ago, was more related to the heart wall than arteries, wasnt it? Can you link it again?

But about your cholesterol, its always going to be high if you keep eating high amount of eggs, milk, cheese and butter.

[Chicagotarsier]

For me the ONLY difference in my labs for the Cholesterol was good HDL moving to low end of the range. The others never budged.

I guess if you cruise at high enough levels it could run you into the area of "worry". Maybe I am just lucky in this aspect.

[AR's King Silabolin]

If I remember correctly the study you posted a while ago, was more related to the heart wall than arteries, wasnt it? Can you link it again?

But about your cholesterol, its always going to be high if you keep eating high amount of eggs, milk, cheese and butter.

heart wall?..no, got to do with the arteries.....and dont think it was only the arteriewalls in the heart, but all arteries.
But i try to find it again. Just come home from training and wife wants to go out for dinner so gotta run.

But its complex man. ive red eggs and milk and cheese is good for HDL and yet if its raises the LDL, it raises your HDL more, closing the gap beetween hdl and ldl, which is far more important than having low total cholestrol.

But, my BP and heartbeat at rest is optimal for my age. And that migth tell that my bad cholestrol last years (due to bad diett) has not done so much damage.

[Mr.BB]

Found it: http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...sclerosis.html

You pasted 2 studies together, the first is only about LV left ventricule.

What they say is that the AAS dont directly cause artery thickning, although they confirm that steroids do change lipids in a bad way.
With time we know that high cholesterol promotes atherosclerosis.

Where you read that eggs are good for cholesterol??

It was not in any medical information board...

[hammerheart]

heart wall?..no, got to do with the arteries.....and dont think it was only the arteriewalls in the heart, but all arteries.
But i try to find it again. Just come home from training and wife wants to go out for dinner so gotta run.

But its complex man. ive red eggs and milk and cheese is good for HDL and yet if its raises the LDL, it raises your HDL more, closing the gap beetween hdl and ldl, which is far more important than having low total cholestrol.

But, my BP and heartbeat at rest is optimal for my age. And that migth tell that my bad cholestrol last years (due to bad diett) has not done so much damage.

What about your sugars consumption? Including fruits. High glycemic loads are the most powerful stimulus for cholesterol synthesis. Absorption from food is regulated by the liver in a negative feedback fashion.

[ScotchGuard02]

My genetics suck and my triglyceride and cholesterol were off the charts. The numbers actually went down when I was cycling. I changed my diet and the numbers dropped again. I've been cycling for about 15 years and my numbers didn't change too much. I finally got medication and in my last PCT blook work, all of my lipid numbers were totally normal. IMO, controlled cycling of AAS didn't affect my body in a harmful way. As a matter of fact, my cholesterol numbers dropped as I cycled and watched my diet. I'm no doctor, scientist, or medical professional. I know what I put in my body and what my blood work says. For me, AAS cycling has not proven to be harmful in any way over the past 15 years. Oh, about NPP or Mast? I'd run NPP. Running 2 Nor-19's are fine. I've run Tren/Primo and Tren/NPP with awesome results. Next year I'll run Tren/Mast and see how they work.

[numbere]

Sorry to burst you guys bubble here, but the facts are not exactly as described above (although a particular number of ppl consistently try to give slight changes to reality).

It is true that large LDL is less harmful than small LDL, but to say that large particles "are good" is wrong. The graph below depicts how much:

...

EDIT: Ok, what the graph is saying is that large LDL particles increase the risk of Coronary Heart Disease in 31%, instead of 44% from the small LDL.

Thanks for the study B, but that was damn read lol.

Yeah you're right, I should have worded that statement much differently.

The main thought that I was trying to convey is that a VAP test is more comprehensive and a better indicator of risks for cardiovascular disease compared to a normal cholesterol test.

[AR's King Silabolin]

Found it: http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...sclerosis.html

You pasted 2 studies together, the first is only about LV left ventricule.


where you read that eggs are good for cholesterol??

It was not in any medical information board...

In a couple of fitness magazines.
And they kind of bullied the "old" doctors, with education from the 60s, stil saying eggs are bad for cholestrol.

[numbere]

In a couple of fitness magazines.
And they kind of bullied the "old" doctors, with education from the 60s, stil saying eggs are bad for cholestrol.

Hey Sil, you ever consider using a small amount (50mcg/d) of t3 on cycle to reduce/control bf?

[AR's King Silabolin]

What about your sugars consumption? Including fruits. High glycemic loads are the most powerful stimulus for cholesterol synthesis. Absorption from food is regulated by the liver in a negative feedback fashion.

Yes, agree from my studies. Have du nazidrop all kind of sugars in my SBC. Im not sure of the fruitsjuice. Some of them (pomegranate f.i.) are said to be good for overall cardiovascular system but they are very high in glycemic index. So im not sure about the fruitjuices...

[hammerheart]

Yes, agree from my studies. Have du nazidrop all kind of sugars in my SBC. Im not sure of the fruitsjuice. Some of them (pomegranate f.i.) are said to be good for overall cardiovascular system but they are very high in glycemic index. So im not sure about the fruitjuices...

Fruits are great but juices deprived of fiber not so much. Excessive loads of fructose are an health hazard.

[AR's King Silabolin]

Hey Sil, you ever consider using a small amount (50mcg/d) of t3 on cycle to reduce/control bf?

No, never studied t3. Aas, sarms and peptides only. I was hoping the cjc1295 for 12 weeks with good diett and cardio would do the trick.
Im not looking for below 12% now. It will be more of a bulk. Its winther!. Next summer infront of the Grand Canaria holiday i migth be interested in dropping below 12%.

U have good experiences with t3?

[hammerheart]

In a couple of fitness magazines.
And they kind of bullied the "old" doctors, with education from the 60s, stil saying eggs are bad for cholestrol.

I eat eggs on a daily basis and loads of butter, sometimes a whole stick. My total cholesterol is 150, HDL 60, LDL-C 70. I have been above therapeutic TRT ranges since April. It was 220 in July but I have dropped AI since and that normalized my lipids.

[AR's King Silabolin]

Fruits are great but juices deprived of fiber not so much. Excessive loads of fructose are an health hazard.

But they say pomegranatejuice and cranberryjuice is the most healthy u can get?
But i guess both of them are loaded with fructose.

[Mr.BB]

In a couple of fitness magazines.
And they kind of bullied the "old" doctors, with education from the 60s, stil saying eggs are bad for cholestrol.

Yeah, still in 2016 we have ppl advocating for atkins fat diet despite all the evidence against it.

Some ppl here (and even in my gym) still think that eating fat makes them have more testosterone LOL.

There's nothing wrong in a bit of olive oil in your salad, but when you think that a one table spoon can have more calories than the whole salad, and you see ppl drowning the vegetables in it, you know that coronary disease is still going to continue as number death cause.

About the eggs you can believe whatever you want, personally prefer to look at facts and even try it on myself. About facts you just need to read this study:





From: Effect of dietary cholesterol on plasma cholesterol concentration in subjects following reduced fat, high fibre diet

[Mr.BB]

What about your sugars consumption? Including fruits. High glycemic loads are the most powerful stimulus for cholesterol synthesis. Absorption from food is regulated by the liver in a negative feedback fashion.

Why are you looking at cholesterol synthesis when the problem is clearly in dietary cholesterol???

You can eat and drink fruits all you want, that it will not give you high cholesterol from it, in fact it will reduce it.

[hammerheart]

Why are you looking at cholesterol synthesis when the problem is clearly in dietary cholesterol???

I don't know what you are talking about since all the recent research points in a different direction. The liver can regulate the amount of serum cholesterol balancing synthesis and absorption of dietary intake. I'm not gonna buy a 30 years old research paper on eggs.

[numbere]

U have good experiences with t3?

Yes great experiences especially during a bulk, that's why I brought it up.

Helps keep bf low(er) on a bulk.

T3 works well with tren, nandrolone or tren/nandrolone on a cut or bulk.

It's much better and less expensive than any SARM or peptide.

[hammerheart]

Yes great experiences especially during a bulk, that's why I brought it up.

Helps keep bf low(er) on a bulk.

T3 works well with tren, nandrolone or tren/nandrolone on a cut or bulk.

It's much better and less expensive than any SARM or peptide.

What do you know about tren and reduction of endogenous thyroid hormones output?

Ever had bloodwork about this?

[numbere]

What do you know about tren and reduction of endogenous thyroid hormones output?

Ever had bloodwork about this?

Yeah it lowers t3 my slightly but it's nothing to worry about as far as weight gain.

It's not necessary to use t3 with tren because it still increases your metabolism somehow.

[Mr.BB]

I don't know what you are talking about since all the recent research points in a different direction. The liver can regulate the amount of serum cholesterol balancing synthesis and absorption of dietary intake. I'm not gonna buy a 30 years old research paper on eggs.

What recent research?? Please dont bring Maria Fernandez crap...

30 years ago or today, the principles are the same.

USDA, AHA and WHO are not reading the research you mentioned as the daily Cholesterol recommendation is 300mg.

[NACH3]

Yes great experiences especially during a bulk, that's why I brought it up.

Helps keep bf low(er) on a bulk.

T3 works well with tren, nandrolone or tren/nandrolone on a cut or bulk.

It's much better and less expensive than any SARM or peptide.

And this is one reason I'd like to try T3 on a bulk in the very near future

[hammerheart]

What recent research?? Please dont bring Maria Fernandez crap...

30 years ago or today, the principles are the same.

USDA, AHA and WHO are not reading the research you mentioned as the daily Cholesterol recommendation is 300mg.

Those RDA are in their place, if you consider the average western diet.

In my imhos, if you keep things in balance you are never going to run into a problem. Overabundance of multiple factors triggers issues.

Be on a high carb diet whilst keeping dietary fats/cholesterol low, and you will be fine. But, introduce dietary sources high in cholesterol and I'm sure you'll run into the results showed by study above.

I do absolutely zero refined sugars and carbs, consume eggs daily, eat moderate to high amount of fats, and I'm fine, even with tT levels above therapeutic range, lol.

The problem with the RDA is they have to deal with the western type of diet. They are western organizations after all. It's sooo much easier to tell the average man to skip the eggs than to cut on refined carbs and sugars, because they know it will just never work.


Try bulking on high carb / sugar / cholesterol / fats like Sila does and you'll end up with poor lipid profile. It's not rocket science

[Mr.BB]

Those RDA are in their place, if you consider the average western diet.

In my imhos, if you keep things in balance you are never going to run into a problem. Overabundance of multiple factors triggers issues.

Be on a high carb diet whilst keeping dietary fats/cholesterol low, and you will be fine. But, introduce dietary sources high in cholesterol and I'm sure you'll run into the results showed by study above.

I do absolutely zero refined sugars and carbs, consume eggs daily, eat moderate to high amount of fats, and I'm fine, even with tT levels above therapeutic range, lol.

The problem with the RDA is they have to deal with the western type of diet. They are western organizations after all. It's sooo much easier to tell the average man to skip the eggs than to cut on refined carbs and sugars, because they know it will just never work.


Try bulking on high carb / sugar / cholesterol / fats like Sila does and you'll end up with poor lipid profile. It's not rocket science

You say you are fine, and still your thread in TRT keeps growing

Maybe you need to approach a different diet, have you ever tried it?

In the long run there are some evidence that high fat diet its not healthy, I was saving this studies for Simon, but hey, you deserve it as well



Low-carbohydrate diets impair flow-mediated dilatation: Evidence from a systematic review and meta-analysis



Negative effect of a low-carbohydrate, high-protein, high-fat diet on small peripheral artery reactivity in patients with increased cardiovascular risk (this is a good one for Sil)

(theres more if you still have doubts)

[hammerheart]

Of course I have tried. Moderate carb from whole grains is what works for me now, but I was feeling BEST back in 2013 on proper low carb diet. I still have my 250g of daily carbs which is nowhere low. Probably I need less just less grains and more fresh fruits, but I need to be wary of excess fructose as my intestines don't seem to tolerate it well.

Anyway, I say my lipids where fine, not the rest (sigh).

[Mr.BB]

Of course I have tried. Moderate carb from whole grains is what works for me now, but I was feeling BEST back in 2013 on proper low carb diet. I still have my 250g of daily carbs which is nowhere low. Probably I need less just less grains and more fresh fruits, but I need to be wary of excess fructose as my intestines don't seem to tolerate it well.

Anyway, I say my lipids where fine, not the rest (sigh).

Dont eat fruit at big fatty meals, or at least eat it first.

Fruit digestion is very rapid and the disturbance of "colliding" with slower digestion foods creats flatus. Also need to be ripe, unripe starch of some fruits can be pretty difficult to digest.

[DocToxin8]

Some good info here and thoughtfull speculation.

Oxidized LDL cholesterol form arterial plaque through an inflammatory process.
My own bloodwork from when I've drank about 10-12 eggs a day (on AAS as usual) showed normal total cholesterol, low HDL cholesterol.

I was in an experiment for people that had used AAS for over 5 years,
My heart (left ventricular wall) was within limits, but on the higher side.
My resting heart rate varies between 40-50.
My plaque in the carotid artery (in the neck) showed I had less sign of atherosclerosis than the average population.
Stopping blood supply to both my arms for 5 minutes to check the speed it took for oxygen saturation to normalize (another measure of circulation/atherosclerosis) was fine.

On top of the fact that genetics and training will influence this,
(I have close family members with high cholesterol (needing treatment) who don't use AAS)

Some Supplements that may help:
NAC (by stopping inflammation in the blood vessels perhaps)
Carnitine (same as NAC)
Taurine (lowers cholesterol in many studies)
75-100mg ED of aspirin: irreversible inhibitor of thromboxane A2, yet the dose is too low to inhibit production of prostacyclins. Prevents platelet aggregation which is involved in the plaque forming process)

Enjoy the feeling of an empty wallet!

[DocToxin8]

And high fat diets are for Eskimos IMO.

Protein:30%, carbs 40%, fat 30% (of total energy intake)
is a simple enough macro set up I've felt good doing.
What carbs and fat you eat, and the timing of high GI food regarding fat intake matters too. Especially the first part.
10grams of trans fatty acids aren't what you wanna mix in your protein shake.
10grams of MCT oil another matter.

And fructose, well it does help to mix that fructose with glucose, as it is in fruit.
But high fructose corn syrup or just much fructose is a problem;
Fructose skips the phospofructokinase-1/PFK-1 enzyme step in glycolysis, which happen to be the most important rate limiting step.
Then, fructose is mostly absorbed by the liver, unlike glucose which can be just as easily absorbed by the muscles directly.
Since the fructose that enters the liver has already committed itself to glycolytic breakdown it cause a rise in acetyl-CoA when it isn't needed. The liver makes triglycerides to store this energy.
Short story: fructose can increase triglycerides in your blood, and be bad for your health.
(Some fructose is ok ofcourse, dont go nuts)
I may have forgot or confused some of the principles of fructose breakdown as i didn't care to look it up,
Please correct me if it's wrong, but the result is correct; increased triglycerides and other issues.

[AR's King Silabolin]

Yeah, still in 2016 we have ppl advocating for atkins fat diet despite all the evidence against it.

Some ppl here (and even in my gym) still think that eating fat makes them have more testosterone LOL.

There's nothing wrong in a bit of olive oil in your salad, but when you think that a one table spoon can have more calories than the whole salad, and you see ppl drowning the vegetables in it, you know that coronary disease is still going to continue as number death cause.

About the eggs you can believe whatever you want, personally prefer to look at facts and even try it on myself. About facts you just need to read this study:

From: Effect of dietary cholesterol on plasma cholesterol concentration in subjects following reduced fat, high fibre diet

<img src="http://forums.steroid.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=165577"/>

Eggs. Im at work and only red under results. It stated clearly that there were no difference in ldl or total after 8 weeks for the 2 eggroup vs 7 egggroup.
Did u miss that one champ?

[Mr.BB]