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Thread: " UN nuclear chief attacks hostile US claims on Iran"

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kärnfysikern View Post
    Why is balance of power a good thing if one of the sides is a dictatorship? The cold war wasnt a good thing by any stretch of imagination.

    Nuclear weapons are definitely not good thing, especialy not in the hands of dictators.
    "American-backed military dictator who is risking civil instability in a country with nuclear weapons and an increasingly alienated public" on whose border Osama Bin Laden and top Al Qaeda leaders are "believed to be hiding out......

    The US has given Pakistan more than $10 billion in aid --mostly to the military, since 2001."


    Johan, read this and tell me you still think the current US leadership is genuinely interested in preventing dictators from obtaining nuclear weapons.

    Logan, I understand that you have the job of being 'AR's Patriotic Member', I respect that, but don't let your patriotism blind you to the reality of the very poor leadership your country has had over the last 7 years.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/wo...nt&oref=slogin

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    "American-backed military dictator who is risking civil instability in a country with nuclear weapons and an increasingly alienated public" on whose border Osama Bin Laden and top Al Qaeda leaders are "believed to be hiding out......

    The US has given Pakistan more than $10 billion in aid --mostly to the military, since 2001."


    Johan, read this and tell me you still think the current US leadership is genuinely interested in preventing dictators from obtaining nuclear weapons.

    Logan, I understand that you have the job of being 'AR's Patriotic Member', I respect that, but don't let your patriotism blind you to the reality of the very poor leadership your country has had over the last 7 years.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/wo...nt&oref=slogin
    Seriously,
    why do you keep trying to change the subject of the post. I make direct points in regards to Irans' leadership trying to acquire nuclear weapons, and you keep bringing up your opinions on the US.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13 View Post
    Seriously,
    why do you keep trying to change the subject of the post. I make direct points in regards to Irans' leadership trying to acquire nuclear weapons, and you keep bringing up your opinions on the US.
    The post is titled " UN nuclear chief attacks hostile US claims on Iran".

    My points are trying to show why I agree with the view of the "UN nuclear chief".

    How do my posts not appear to be relevant to the topic?

  4. #44
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    http://www.miamiherald.com/news/world/story/294914.html

    "No evidence of Iranian nuclear-weapons program, experts say"

    WASHINGTON --
    Despite President Bush's claims that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons that could trigger ''World War III,'' experts in and out of government say there's no conclusive evidence that Tehran has an active nuclear-weapons program.

    Even his own administration appears divided about the immediacy of the threat. While Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney speak of an Iranian weapons program as a fact, Bush's point man on Iran, Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns, has attempted to ratchet down the rhetoric.

    ''Iran is seeking a nuclear capability . . . that some people fear might lead to a nuclear-weapons capability,'' Burns said in an interview Oct. 25 on PBS.

    ''I don't think that anyone right today thinks they're working on a bomb,'' said another U.S. official, who requested anonymity because of the issue's sensitivity.

    Outside experts say the operative words are ''right today.'' They say Iran may have been actively seeking to create a nuclear-weapons capacity in the past and still could break out of its current uranium-enrichment program and start a weapons program. They, too, lack definitive proof but cite a great deal of circumstantial evidence.

    Bush's rhetoric seems hyperbolic compared with the measured statements by his senior aides and outside experts.

    ''I've told people that if you're interested in avoiding World War III, it seems like you ought to be interested in preventing them [Iran] from having the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon,'' he said Oct. 17 at a news conference.

    ''Our country, and the entire international community, cannot stand by as a terror-supporting state fulfills its grandest ambitions,'' Cheney warned on Oct 23. ``We will not allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon.''

    Bush and Cheney's allegations are under especially close scrutiny because their similar allegations about an Iraqi nuclear program proved to be wrong.

    Nevertheless, there are many reasons to be skeptical of Iran's claims that its nuclear program is intended exclusively for peaceful purposes, including the country's vast petroleum reserves, its dealings with a Pakistani dealer in black-market nuclear technology and the fact that it concealed its uranium-enrichment program from a U.N. watchdog agency for 18 years.

    ''Many aspects of Iran's past nuclear program and behavior make more sense if this program was set up for military rather than civilian purposes,'' Pierre Goldschmidt, a former U.N. International Atomic Energy Agency deputy director general, said in a speech Oct. 30 at Harvard University.

    If conclusive proof exists, however, Bush hasn't revealed it. Nor have four years of IAEA inspections.

    ''I have not received any information that there is a concrete active nuclear-weapons program going on right now,'' IAEA Director General Mohamed ElBaradei asserted in an interview Oct. 31 with CNN.

    ''There is no smoking-gun proof of work on a nuclear weapon, but there is enough evidence that points in that direction,'' said Mark Fitzpatrick of the London-based International Institute of Strategic Studies, a former deputy assistant secretary of state for nonproliferation controls.

    New light may be shed when the IAEA reports this month on whether Iran is fulfilling an August accord to answer all outstanding questions about the nuclear-enrichment program it long concealed from the U.N. watchdog agency.

    Its report is expected to focus on Iran's work with devices that spin uranium hexafluoride gas to produce low-enriched uranium for power plants or highly enriched uranium for weapons, depending on the duration of the process.

    Iran asserts that it's working only with the P1, an older centrifuge that it admitted buying in 1987 from an international black-market network headed by A.Q. Khan, the father of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal.

    But IAEA inspectors determined that Iran failed to reveal that it had obtained blueprints for the P2, a centrifuge twice as efficient as the P1, from the Khan network in 1995.

    Iranian officials say they did nothing with the blueprints until 2002, when they were given to a private firm that produced and tested seven modified P2 parts, then abandoned the effort.

    IAEA inspectors, however, discovered that Iran sought to buy thousands of specialized magnets for P2s from European suppliers, and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said last year that research on the centrifuges continued.

    The IAEA has been stymied in trying to discover the project's scope, fueling suspicions that the Iranian military may be secretly running a P2 development program parallel to the civilian-run P1 program at Natanz.

    Other issues driving concerns that Iran may be developing nuclear weapons:

    PROJECT 111: The CIA turned over to the IAEA last year thousands of pages of computer simulations and documents -- purportedly from a defector's laptop -- that indicated that Iranian experts studied mounting a nuclear warhead on a ballistic missile.

    The laptop also contained drawings and notes on sophisticated detonators and conventional high explosives arrayed in a ring -- the shape used to trigger nuclear weapons -- and implicated a firm linked to Iran's military in uranium-enrichment studies.

    The documents included drawings of a 1,200-foot-deep underground shaft apparently designed to confine a nuclear test explosion.

    Iran denounced the materials as ''politically motivated and baseless,'' but promised to cooperate with an IAEA investigation into so-called Project 111 once other questions are settled. U.S., French, German and British intelligence officials think the materials are genuine.

    ''I wouldn't go to war over this, but it's reason for suspicion,'' Fitzpatrick said. ``It hasn't been explained.''

    Muhammad Sahimi, a professor of chemical and petroleum engineering at the University of Southern California who emigrated from Iran in 1978 and has analyzed Iran's nuclear program closely, dismissed the materials as ``totally not believable.''

    Noting how carefully Iranian intelligence agencies monitor the program and the borders, he said, ``If the laptop did exist, I find it hard to believe that its absence wasn't noticed for so long that somebody could take it out of Iran.''

    THE 15-PAGE DOCUMENT: ElBaradei revealed in November 2005 that Iran had a document supplied by the Khan network on casting and milling uranium metal into hemispheres.

    Uranium hemispheres have no application in power plants, but form the explosive cores of nuclear weapons. Iran denied asking for the document or doing anything with it. It barred the IAEA from making copies but agreed to have it placed under seal.

    IAEA investigators have been interviewing Khan network members to verify Iran's version of how it got the document. They also have been looking into whether Iran received a Chinese warhead design from the Khan network. Libya, which bought the same materials Iran did, had the design.

    POLONIUM-210: Iran has failed since 2003 to satisfy IAEA inquiries about experiments it conducted from 1989 to 1993 that produced Polonium-210.

    Polonium-210 is a highly radioactive substance that has limited civilian applications but is used in warheads to initiate the fission chain reaction that results in a nuclear blast.

    URANIUM MINE: IAEA inspectors want to know why and how the same military-linked company that's been implicated in the laptop materials was able to develop a uranium mine and a milling facility in a year when Iran has said the firm has limited experience in such work.

    NUCLEAR POWER VS. OIL AND GAS: Many U.S. and European officials dispute Iran's claim that it needs to enrich uranium for nuclear power plants.

    They point out that the only Iranian nuclear power plant under construction is being built by Russia, which has an agreement to supply it with low-enriched uranium fuel for 10 years.

    Moreover, they contend that Iran doesn't have enough uranium to provide fuel for the lifetimes of the seven to 10 civilian reactors it says it needs to meet the demands of its growing population.

    It would be far cheaper for Iran to expand domestic consumption of natural gas, of which it has the world's second-largest reserves, and oil, of which it has the world's third-largest reserves, according to a study by the Los Alamos National Laboratory.

    But Sahimi argued that given the skyrocketing price of oil and natural gas, it makes more sense for Iran to export as much petroleum and natural gas as possible and fill its power needs with nuclear-generated electricity.

    ''The price of uranium since 2001 has increased by 800 percent. Iran's presently known resources can supply enriched uranium for seven reactors for 15 years,'' he said. ``It would be foolish not to go after a domestic uranium facility . . . given that, the price of enriched uranium, and the political obstacles and hindrance (Iran faces) if it decides to rely on outside suppliers.''

    NOTE: For several months, the Bush administration has been ratcheting up its rhetoric toward Iran, accusing its government of trying to develop a nuclear weapon. The administration has imposed new economic sanctions on Iranian businesses and suggested that military action may be needed if the Iranians don't shut down their nuclear program. But global opinion differs on what threat -- if any -- Iran's nuclear program poses. Over the next several weeks, McClatchy Newspapers will examine key questions surrounding the Bush administration's confrontation with Iran.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prada View Post
    http://www.miamiherald.com/news/world/story/294914.html

    "No evidence of Iranian nuclear-weapons program, experts say"
    I have never seen a more misleading title than that..........

  6. #46
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    Neat way of avoiding my question.


    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    At least 60000 Iraqi citizens killed in "collateral damage" since 2003. how many in the 1991 war? How many in Vietnam? How many in Korea? Hiroshima? Nagasaki?

    Oh wait, I forgot we are the good guys, we can kill innocent woman & children. We didn't start it, they did.

    Ever stop and think why the US needs to keep killing so many people on their own soil one decade to the next?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack View Post
    Neat way of avoiding my question.
    I don't think I avoided the question.

    "Originally Posted by xero View Post
    At least 60000 Iraqi citizens killed in "collateral damage" since 2003. how many in the 1991 war? How many in Vietnam? How many in Korea? Hiroshima? Nagasaki?
    Oh wait, I forgot we are the good guys, we can kill innocent woman & children. We didn't start it, they did.
    Ever stop and think why the US needs to keep killing so many people on their own soil one decade to the next?"

    My answer to your question in the above is that you don't need to have used nuclear weapons to be deadly to thousands of innocent people. The "conventional" weapons used have killed a hell of a lot innocent people.

  8. #48
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    Excuse me, I guess I expected you to stay on the nuke topic


    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    I don't think I avoided the question.

    "Originally Posted by xero View Post
    At least 60000 Iraqi citizens killed in "collateral damage" since 2003. how many in the 1991 war? How many in Vietnam? How many in Korea? Hiroshima? Nagasaki?
    Oh wait, I forgot we are the good guys, we can kill innocent woman & children. We didn't start it, they did.
    Ever stop and think why the US needs to keep killing so many people on their own soil one decade to the next?"

    My answer to your question in the above is that you don't need to have used nuclear weapons to be deadly to thousands of innocent people. The "conventional" weapons used have killed a hell of a lot innocent people.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack View Post
    Excuse me, I guess I expected you to stay on the nuke topic
    Once again, the title of this post is "UN nuclear chief attacks hostile US claims on Iran". There are a number of background or contextually relevant issues around this title. Why do you feel so strongly that they should not be discussed?

    Your post:
    "I trust zero from the UN"

    Now I could say the same to you, what does this have to do with "the nuke topic"? Off topic! You would defend your post on the basis that your opinion on UN trustworthiness is influential to your position on this topic. I would agree that your post is contextually relevant.

    So my post follow the same line as yours, you don't trust the UN, I don't trust the US leadership on this issue and I refer to their track record as influencing my position. So why is that now off topic?

    You and Logan are beginning to create the impression that you really want this thread "censored" or limited to Iran bashing only.

    Tell me I am talking sh!t and why you think so. If you can convince me on the issues I will back off, Even tell me you just dont want to hear negative US views on this. But don't tell me my posts are off topic.
    Last edited by xero; 11-05-2007 at 12:44 PM.

  10. #50
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    In your post you claimed that the US having nukes is a bad thing. We have used them in Japan only and for a good reason. Basically I shot down your arguement so you came back with a totally different arguement because you were wrong. Si?




    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    Once again, the title of this post is "UN nuclear chief attacks hostile US claims on Iran". There are a number of background or contextually relevant issues around this title. Why do you feel so strongly that they should not be discussed?

    Your post:
    "I trust zero from the UN"

    Now I could say the same to you, what does this have to do with "the nuke topic"? Off topic! You would defend your post on the basis that your opinion on UN trustworthiness is influential to your position on this topic. I would agree that your post is contextually relevant.

    So my post follow the same line as yours, you don't trust the UN, I don't trust the US leadership on this issue and I refer to their track record as influencing my position. So why is that now off topic?

    You and Logan are beginning to create the impression that you really want this thread "censored" or limited to Iran bashing only.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack View Post
    In your post you claimed that the US having nukes is a bad thing. We have used them in Japan only and for a good reason. Basically I shot down your arguement so you came back with a totally different arguement because you were wrong. Si?
    My response was that whether the US is using nukes or "conventional" weapons makes no difference, the US is still killing many thousand of people.

    You might as well have used a nuke in Iraq in 2003 for all the innocent people that have been killed in what the US will justify as "unfortunate collateral damage". Whats difference does it make for the mothers who's children died. Nuke radiation fallout or bombs that missed their "legitimate" target. Their children are still just as dead.

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    Ok so we got that straight. We will now talk about conventional weapons.

    If you look at any war, there is collateral damage. But if you look at this one compared to others there is far less. We go to great lengths to avoid hitting non-military targets.

    If you look at Iran backed Hamas, they specifically target civillians. Which one is better? They hit places full of men, women, and children. You going to bash them? What if Iran gave them a suitcase nuke? How many women and children they going to kill with it?

    Start looking at the big picture bro.



    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    My response was that whether the US is using nukes or "conventional" weapons makes no difference, the US is still killing many thousand of people.

    You might as well have used a nuke in Iraq in 2003 for all the innocent people that have been killed in what the US will justify as "unfortunate collateral damage". Whats difference does it make for the mothers who's children died. Nuke radiation fallout or bombs that missed their "legitimate" target. Their children are still just as dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack View Post
    Ok so we got that straight. We will now talk about conventional weapons.

    If you look at any war, there is collateral damage. But if you look at this one compared to others there is far less. We go to great lengths to avoid hitting non-military targets.

    If you look at Iran backed Hamas, they specifically target civillians. Which one is better? They hit places full of men, women, and children. You going to bash them? What if Iran gave them a suitcase nuke? How many women and children they going to kill with it?

    Start looking at the big picture bro.
    You see I am looking at the bigger picture. This is a potential death spiral so long as both parties think that brute force is the only approach to the problem. My key points have been:

    - If there can be no political reconciliation then it is probably better that both sides have equal military power. MAD (mutually assured death) as a deterrent.

    - US should lead the way and bend over backward to try and establish some form of reconciliation. Find out what the real issues are and adapt your foreign policy, compromise where possible.

    If there is no reconciliation you are doomed to generations of living in a society that is constantly under threat. The stresses and strains of knowing that eventually one of these lunatics will succeed in harming you again will change the personality of your country (as it already has).The civil liberties which made the US once the country the world gave respect to will slowly be eroded to close all gaps that terrorists could use. You will become a very bitter and ultra-conservative society. This is no way to live.

    I am sure you wont agree with this as you probably believe that you can eradicate the problem with force.

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    So you are willing to run the risk and allow Iran to obtain nukes? Boy am I glad your not in power.

    You talk about reconciliation but thats easy to say and not easy to do.

    What does the US want? Iran to give up wanting nukes and stop sponsoring terror?

    Reconciliation is a fine thing but you know what happens to a Jimmy Carter or a Bill Clinton? They get pissed on repeatedly. You know how many times we were attacked while Clinton was president? He would have been more than willing to sit down and talk but they dont want that.

    Talk does nothing and sometimes you have to make the hard choice and draw the line in the sand.







    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    You see I am looking at the bigger picture. This is a potential death spiral so long as both parties think that brute force is the only approach to the problem. My key points have been:

    - If there can be no political reconciliation then it is probably better that both sides have equal military power. MAD (mutually assured death) as a deterrent.

    - US should lead the way and bend over backward to try and establish some form of reconciliation. Find out what the real issues are and adapt your foreign policy, compromise where possible.

    If there is no reconciliation you are doomed to generations of living in a society that is constantly under threat. The stresses and strains of knowing that eventually one of these lunatics will succeed in harming you again will change the personality of your country (as it already has).The civil liberties which made the US once the country the world gave respect to will slowly be eroded to close all gaps that terrorists could use. You will become a very bitter and ultra-conservative society. This is no way to live.

    I am sure you wont agree with this as you probably believe that you can eradicate the problem with force.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    I am sure you wont agree with this as you probably believe that you can eradicate the problem with force.

    Look at history bro...its the only way

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack View Post
    So you are willing to run the risk and allow Iran to obtain nukes? Boy am I glad your not in power.

    You talk about reconciliation but thats easy to say and not easy to do.

    What does the US want? Iran to give up wanting nukes and stop sponsoring terror?

    Reconciliation is a fine thing but you know what happens to a Jimmy Carter or a Bill Clinton? They get pissed on repeatedly. You know how many times we were attacked while Clinton was president? He would have been more than willing to sit down and talk but they dont want that.

    Talk does nothing and sometimes you have to make the hard choice and draw the line in the sand.
    exactly. One would think, by reading what others post in here, that middle eastern terrorists did not attack the US until Bush got in office............

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack View Post
    Look at history bro...its the only way
    Not true roid. I used to think like that as well. I live in a country where two opposing groups were hell bent on destroying each other.

    I was in the military and believed that to talk and compromise were weaknesses. I committed 4 years of my life to war, and lived another 15 under constant terrorist threats and attacks.

    We were wrong. A lot of people died. We made very difficult compromises eventually and have reconciled. Life is better for both sides.

    You carry on down this path and you will learn. No matter how special you think you are, terrorism is difficult to counter and will wear you down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prada View Post
    [url]

    Merely "exchanging rhetoric" would not resolve the Iranian nuclear case, the IAEA chief said, adding that "the earlier we follow the North Korean model, the better for everybody."

    North Korea has already detonated a nuclear device. But under six-nation talks, the Stalinist state has agreed to dismantle its nuclear weapons program in return for a broad package of economic and diplomatic incentives.

    .
    Seems the N. Korean model is an easy way to add motivation to Iran to build a nuclear weapon. It now becomes a win-win to build a nuke. On one hand, they wish to possess the power, etc that comes with having a nuke. And on the other hand, if the world decides that Iran may not possess one they can simply "buy" them with economic aids, commerce abilities, etc in order to dispossess the Iran of their technology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13 View Post
    I have never seen a more misleading title than that..........
    What is it that you find misleading?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prada View Post
    What is it that you find misleading?
    If you read the same article that I did and did not find the topic misleading, there really is nothing further to discuss.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13 View Post
    If you read the same article that I did and did not find the topic misleading, there really is nothing further to discuss.........
    The title states: No evidence of nuclear weapons program. How did this innocuous title mislead you? Is that not the content of the article? Perhaps your interpretation has misled you?

  22. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13 View Post
    I suppose the same excuse to be used for pedophiles. It's not their fault that they want to have sex with little girls. These little girls wearing slightly more revealing clothing is creating a breeding ground for these "pedophiles...........

    very short-sighted.
    By your analogy the US administration would be the pedophile because they have a history of invading other countries, overthrowing governments and are the only nation to drops nukes on civilians. So the US should be more likely of repeating these things such as pedophiles often prey on children again.

  23. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Kärnfysikern View Post
    Completely irrelevant.

    If you want to bomb then because they support terrorist than just say so, dont use a nuclear weapons program that there is not a single shred of evidence for as a excuse. Untill there is proof I wont support bombing their nuclear installations and I hope the EU will aswell.

    If there is proof then bomb away and hopefully the EU will join in.
    Having nukes does not make a country a threat nor is it a reason to start a war. Those "Godless" communists in the Soviet Union and China got them and the world didn't end. Although I heard the LBJ wanted to bomb China before they got them. Soviet ally India got them and the world didn't end. Muslim Pakistan got and a nuclear holocaust didn't occur. North Korea with it's "crazy" leader Kim Jong-Il recently got nukes and now they are dismantling them after talking. Now imagine if we had bombed these countries instead.

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    Could one of you guys please post the wire transfers from Iran to Al-Qaeda or other terrorist organizations?

    Im sure since Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism, that someone can post a video on YouTube of Amedinjhad sitting down with Osama over a cup of tea right?

    If you're referring to Iran's leader continually making threats against Israel and wanting them wiped off the map, well, you need only to look to the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian peoples that have been displaced from the land they have lived on for thousands of years, and have had countless civilians killed by Israel. I'd say that if you are going to call Iran a state sponsor of terrorism, you might just as well call Israel a state sponsor of terrorism as well.

    When the British government had control of the America's, and we were fighting for our Independence in the 1770s, we called ourselves "Freedom Fighters," yet we used guerilla tactics, and the British government called us "Terrorists." Guerilla tactics were the only ones that could be used against a large nation with a standing army, we did not have the resources at the time to fight them head to head.

    Our foreign policy has created this problem. We have had our nose in their business for years. Can anyone deny that we have had American troops on their holy land PRIOR to them launching large scale "terrorist" attacks against us?

    If another country was occupying our lands, and trampling all over places which we thought of as holy or sacred or even just important to the American people, and we didnt have a standing army to fight their army, we would be employing the same tactics. IF they had a country and were able to declare war on us, all the civilians that were targeted in the attacks would only be considered "collateral damage" and not victims of terror. Or, ya know what at this point, with our governments hypocrisy, we might even call them victims of terror even if the nation had declared war on us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegodfather View Post
    Could one of you guys please post the wire transfers from Iran to Al-Qaeda or other terrorist organizations?

    Im sure since Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism, that someone can post a video on YouTube of Amedinjhad sitting down with Osama over a cup of tea right?

    If you're referring to Iran's leader continually making threats against Israel and wanting them wiped off the map, well, you need only to look to the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian peoples that have been displaced from the land they have lived on for thousands of years, and have had countless civilians killed by Israel. I'd say that if you are going to call Iran a state sponsor of terrorism, you might just as well call Israel a state sponsor of terrorism as well.

    When the British government had control of the America's, and we were fighting for our Independence in the 1770s, we called ourselves "Freedom Fighters," yet we used guerilla tactics, and the British government called us "Terrorists." Guerilla tactics were the only ones that could be used against a large nation with a standing army, we did not have the resources at the time to fight them head to head.

    Our foreign policy has created this problem. We have had our nose in their business for years. Can anyone deny that we have had American troops on their holy land PRIOR to them launching large scale "terrorist" attacks against us?

    If another country was occupying our lands, and trampling all over places which we thought of as holy or sacred or even just important to the American people, and we didnt have a standing army to fight their army, we would be employing the same tactics. IF they had a country and were able to declare war on us, all the civilians that were targeted in the attacks would only be considered "collateral damage" and not victims of terror. Or, ya know what at this point, with our governments hypocrisy, we might even call them victims of terror even if the nation had declared war on us.
    People in the middle east have been fighting over these lands for over a thousand years. Zoroastrianism pre-dates and gave birth to many of the fundamentals that we see today in both Christianity and Islam. Lets keep one thing in mind, the Muslim religion was started in the 7th century. So it has been around for roughly 1400 years. Christianity was started in the 1st century, so it has been around for roughly 2000 years. Not to mention that the Old Testament dates back another 1400 years (remember the Israelites?). So if you would like to get technical, Christianity has been around for a longer period than Islam (which "borrows" many Christian passages in the Koran) and thus has an older claim to Israel. On a side note, Zoroastrianism was basically wiped out by the Persian conquest of the 7th century, which was caried out in the name of Islam. Western civilization was founded on Judeo Christian principles, one only needs to remember what B.C. and A.D. stand for.
    B.C. = "before Christ". A.D. = "anno domini" which is Latin for "in the year of our Lord." I suppose that all of you P.C. people will be pushing for the eradication of these symbolic terms.....after you have saved us all from global warming. Then perhaps you will have the human timeline changed to B.G. and A.G. (Before Gore/After Gore)............. At any given time in human history, some piece of land on the Earth was conquered and taken over by a more powerful people. So let's quit taking a small chunk out of human history with which to base your arguements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants View Post
    Having nukes does not make a country a threat nor is it a reason to start a war. Those "Godless" communists in the Soviet Union and China got them and the world didn't end. Although I heard the LBJ wanted to bomb China before they got them. Soviet ally India got them and the world didn't end. Muslim Pakistan got and a nuclear holocaust didn't occur. North Korea with it's "crazy" leader Kim Jong-Il recently got nukes and now they are dismantling them after talking. Now imagine if we had bombed these countries instead.
    For every country that gets nuclear weapons the risk of a world wide disaster increases. There was so many close calls betwen the states and USSR that is a miracle nothing happened. What is most frightening is that many of those close calls was because of errors in the equipment. Accidents could have lead to world wide destruction.

    I dont want to se a new mini cold war betwen Israel and Iran. Itchy fingers on the red button and very short respons time means even a glitch in the computer can lead to a nuclear war.

    Nuclear weapons should be gotten rid of completely. I realistic enough to realise USA, Russia, UK, France and China wont get rid of their nuclear weapons. But atleast those countries can make sure no one else gets them. The NPT has to be enforced. But the evidence has to be 100% reliable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13 View Post
    People in the middle east have been fighting over these lands for over a thousand years. Zoroastrianism pre-dates and gave birth to many of the fundamentals that we see today in both Christianity and Islam. Lets keep one thing in mind, the Muslim religion was started in the 7th century. So it has been around for roughly 1400 years. Christianity was started in the 1st century, so it has been around for roughly 2000 years. Not to mention that the Old Testament dates back another 1400 years (remember the Israelites?). So if you would like to get technical, Christianity has been around for a longer period than Islam (which "borrows" many Christian passages in the Koran) and thus has an older claim to Israel. On a side note, Zoroastrianism was basically wiped out by the Persian conquest of the 7th century, which was caried out in the name of Islam. Western civilization was founded on Judeo Christian principles, one only needs to remember what B.C. and A.D. stand for.
    B.C. = "before Christ". A.D. = "anno domini" which is Latin for "in the year of our Lord." I suppose that all of you P.C. people will be pushing for the eradication of these symbolic terms.....after you have saved us all from global warming. Then perhaps you will have the human timeline changed to B.G. and A.G. (Before Gore/After Gore)............. At any given time in human history, some piece of land on the Earth was conquered and taken over by a more powerful people. So let's quit taking a small chunk out of human history with which to base your arguements.
    I dont disagree with that at all...But I do disagree with billions of dollars in aid going to Israel. I dont care about any qualms between Iran and Israel...In fact if they want to eradicate one anohter, far be it from me to tell them not to or to try and intervene. We didn't do anything about 1,000,000 Rawandans slaughtering each other with machedes, so why the **** do we care if Iran and Israel blow each others population to kingdom come. So long as there is no nuclear fallout that would make its way to the US in the air, I'd say happy shooting guys!!! It has absolutely no bearing on the US, and Im completely against any alliance with Israel, they would not be half as powerful today if we had not given them money&weapons, period. I'm against nation building, and I'm against our country sticking its nose into other countries affairs.

    Answer this, do you disagree that if we were to pull all of our troops from the middle east, and stop desecrating these peoples 'holy grounds', that a large majority of the 'terrorist' attacks would stop on the US?

    I do not think there will ever not be terrorists, because there will always be some idealogic religious zealout filled with hate looking to target someone. However, that is all that these groups have really asked us for, get off of their land, and stop enabling Israel to kill thousands of their civilian peoples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kärnfysikern View Post
    For every country that gets nuclear weapons the risk of a world wide disaster increases. There was so many close calls betwen the states and USSR that is a miracle nothing happened. What is most frightening is that many of those close calls was because of errors in the equipment. Accidents could have lead to world wide destruction.

    I dont want to se a new mini cold war betwen Israel and Iran. Itchy fingers on the red button and very short respons time means even a glitch in the computer can lead to a nuclear war.

    Nuclear weapons should be gotten rid of completely. I realistic enough to realise USA, Russia, UK, France and China wont get rid of their nuclear weapons. But atleast those countries can make sure no one else gets them. The NPT has to be enforced. But the evidence has to be 100% reliable.
    I can argue that the only reason that the close calls did not end up in full scale war was because of nuclear weapons and the fear of them. WWIII may have happened then and there if the US and USSR were not so conscious of the no-win outcome. A cold war is a hell of lot better than a real war any day.

    "But atleast those countries can make sure no one else gets them. The NPT has to be enforced. But the evidence has to be 100% reliable"

    You may feel all warm and fuzzy because the "good guys" have the nukes, but tell that to the unfortunate people who find themselves classified by the US as the "axis of evil" and see how comfortable they feel about that.

  29. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    I can argue that the only reason that the close calls did not end up in full scale war was because of nuclear weapons and the fear of them. WWIII may have happened then and there if the US and USSR were not so conscious of the no-win outcome. A cold war is a hell of lot better than a real war any day.
    The close calls exist because of the nukes. Without nukes there are no close calls. So your argument is pointless.

    A conventional war atleast wont destroy the world like a nuclear war. It was pure luck that the cold war never turned into worldwide destruction. For a long time all that was needed was a false signal on a radar screen and a itchy trigger finger and everything would have been over. Like this incident
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_rocket_incident

    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    You may feel all warm and fuzzy because the "good guys" have the nukes, but tell that to the unfortunate people who find themselves classified by the US as the "axis of evil" and see how comfortable they feel about that.
    Its not about good guys and bad guys. Its about minimising risk, its about making sure the world will not be destroyed because some stupid dictator pushes the wrong buttong. I dont think any country should have the power to annihilate the rest of the world no matter how "good" they are. All it takes is the wrong person at the wrong time and its all over. In a perfect would no country would have nukes, the world is never going to be perfect and the second best thing is to make sure nukes are keept to a few countries.

    We cant keep beeing lucky forever.

  30. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    "American-backed military dictator who is risking civil instability in a country with nuclear weapons and an increasingly alienated public" on whose border Osama Bin Laden and top Al Qaeda leaders are "believed to be hiding out......

    The US has given Pakistan more than $10 billion in aid --mostly to the military, since 2001."


    Johan, read this and tell me you still think the current US leadership is genuinely interested in preventing dictators from obtaining nuclear weapons.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/wo...nt&oref=slogin
    Well when it comes to the states I only belive they will do what is benificial for the states. If it means supporting one nuclear dictator and supressing another dictator that wants nukes that is what they will do. Just like any other country in the same position would do. I do belive however that if the clock could be turned back and pakistan and india could have been prevented from building weapons than america would have prefered that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kärnfysikern View Post
    The close calls exist because of the nukes. Without nukes there are no close calls. So your argument is pointless.

    A conventional war atleast wont destroy the world like a nuclear war. It was pure luck that the cold war never turned into worldwide destruction. For a long time all that was needed was a false signal on a radar screen and a itchy trigger finger and everything would have been over. Like this incident
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_rocket_incident



    Its not about good guys and bad guys. Its about minimising risk, its about making sure the world will not be destroyed because some stupid dictator pushes the wrong buttong. I dont think any country should have the power to annihilate the rest of the world no matter how "good" they are. All it takes is the wrong person at the wrong time and its all over. In a perfect would no country would have nukes, the world is never going to be perfect and the second best thing is to make sure nukes are keept to a few countries.

    We cant keep beeing lucky forever.


    Really really good points....as always.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kärnfysikern View Post
    The close calls exist because of the nukes. Without nukes there are no close calls. So your argument is pointless.

    A conventional war atleast wont destroy the world like a nuclear war. It was pure luck that the cold war never turned into worldwide destruction. For a long time all that was needed was a false signal on a radar screen and a itchy trigger finger and everything would have been over. Like this incident
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_rocket_incident



    Its not about good guys and bad guys. Its about minimising risk, its about making sure the world will not be destroyed because some stupid dictator pushes the wrong buttong. I dont think any country should have the power to annihilate the rest of the world no matter how "good" they are. All it takes is the wrong person at the wrong time and its all over. In a perfect would no country would have nukes, the world is never going to be perfect and the second best thing is to make sure nukes are keept to a few countries.

    We cant keep beeing lucky forever.
    Have to agree with you that it would be wonderful if there were no nukes (but then what about the B52's, ICBM's, gunships, tanks, suicide bombers, hijacked airliners, guns, knives, stones......). Never going to happen.

    And I also agree with you that we will one day inevitably run out of luck.

    You say "Its not about good and bad guys". Unfortunately you introduce the concept by defining a group that you feel is acceptable to have nukes - good, trustworthy people. Your logic as to who should not have nukes is based on a very loose and vague definition of "stupid dictator" - implying bad, non-trustworthy people. That is human nature, classify into good/bad - pain/pleasure.

    Who you can trust and who you cannot is completely relative to which side of the fence you are sitting on. Your group of "good" countries that you trust with nukes is fine for you, but for many it is not. For many the US poses a major threat and they aspire to be able to stand up to them. To be equal. That is also a natural human aspiration. Who says they cant.

    If the west was really serious about NPT they would lead by example. Then they would have the moral high-ground to insist on compliance with the NPT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegodfather View Post
    I dont disagree with that at all...But I do disagree with billions of dollars in aid going to Israel. I dont care about any qualms between Iran and Israel...In fact if they want to eradicate one anohter, far be it from me to tell them not to or to try and intervene. We didn't do anything about 1,000,000 Rawandans slaughtering each other with machedes, so why the **** do we care if Iran and Israel blow each others population to kingdom come. So long as there is no nuclear fallout that would make its way to the US in the air, I'd say happy shooting guys!!! It has absolutely no bearing on the US, and Im completely against any alliance with Israel, they would not be half as powerful today if we had not given them money&weapons, period. I'm against nation building, and I'm against our country sticking its nose into other countries affairs.

    Answer this, do you disagree that if we were to pull all of our troops from the middle east, and stop desecrating these peoples 'holy grounds', that a large majority of the 'terrorist' attacks would stop on the US?

    I do not think there will ever not be terrorists, because there will always be some idealogic religious zealout filled with hate looking to target someone. However, that is all that these groups have really asked us for, get off of their land, and stop enabling Israel to kill thousands of their civilian peoples.
    Do you realize that we are constantly restraining Israel from attacking these countries all together? You have an issue with the US giving money to Israel, do you also have an issue with the US handing out cash to almost every nation in the world as well, or is your issue with Israel getting funds simply seeded in bigotry?

  34. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13 View Post
    Do you realize that we are constantly restraining Israel from attacking these countries all together? You have an issue with the US giving money to Israel, do you also have an issue with the US handing out cash to almost every nation in the world as well, or is your issue with Israel getting funds simply seeded in bigotry?
    Yes, I have a problem with the US handing money out all over the world. I am concerned about the 350,000,000 within the borders of the US, not the 5.6 billion people outside of its borders. I dont care if its Israel, Pakistan, European countries, whoever, I believe in taking care of the people within our borders first and foremost. It has nothing to do with 'bigotry.'

    My only qualm with funding Israel is that it further provokes the 'terrorist' attacks against our country, that everyone in the country seems to be shaking in their boots about. Israel is a proxy of the US government, we all know the only point in being an ally with them is to have another foothold in the middle east. I think we should be able to give foreign aid to anyone we damn well please, and if someone has a problem with it they can piss off, but I'd prefer to not give foriegn aid at the expense of US civilian lives.

    Withdrawl all troops from middle eastern holy land+Stop funding Israel= Terrorists have a huge wind taken out of their sail for reasons to attack the US.

    Thats my logic...do you believe its flawed?

  35. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegodfather View Post
    Yes, I have a problem with the US handing money out all over the world. I am concerned about the 350,000,000 within the borders of the US, not the 5.6 billion people outside of its borders. I dont care if its Israel, Pakistan, European countries, whoever, I believe in taking care of the people within our borders first and foremost. It has nothing to do with 'bigotry.'

    My only qualm with funding Israel is that it further provokes the 'terrorist' attacks against our country, that everyone in the country seems to be shaking in their boots about. Israel is a proxy of the US government, we all know the only point in being an ally with them is to have another foothold in the middle east. I think we should be able to give foreign aid to anyone we damn well please, and if someone has a problem with it they can piss off, but I'd prefer to not give foriegn aid at the expense of US civilian lives.

    Withdrawl all troops from middle eastern holy land+Stop funding Israel= Terrorists have a huge wind taken out of their sail for reasons to attack the US.

    Thats my logic...do you believe its flawed?
    I too have an issue with the amount of money that is handed out world-wide.
    But let's not forget that alot of this money that gets handed out is in the name of appeasement. Everyone wants diplomacy, and unfortunately diplomacy begets extortion. Regardless, taking care of our own should be first and foremost.

  36. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13 View Post
    I too have an issue with the amount of money that is handed out world-wide.
    But let's not forget that alot of this money that gets handed out is in the name of appeasement. Everyone wants diplomacy, and unfortunately diplomacy begets extortion. Regardless, taking care of our own should be first and foremost.
    I agree with that as well...


    I was really hoping someone would counter my argument with "they hate us for our freedom. . ." What a bunch of propagandized bullshit that one is, I dont ever recall a video where Osama or any other terrorist said "US, we hate you because you are free."

  37. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegodfather View Post
    I agree with that as well...


    I was really hoping someone would counter my argument with "they hate us for our freedom. . ." What a bunch of propagandized bullshit that one is, I dont ever recall a video where Osama or any other terrorist said "US, we hate you because you are free."
    no, but they hate us and all other free people for our tolerance. gays, women, etc......

  38. #78
    thats crap; The 'terrorists' don't give a fk about what americans are doing as far as women and gays are concerned, why would they? ..the issue is America's military presence in the persian gulf and it's imperialism in Iraq and it's support for Israeli imperialism and oppresion and it's denial of rights to the Palestinians which it expelled and now contains in segregated areas..and it's existence in general-which they deem to be unjust..the 'terrorists' always make demands and greivences concerning these issues; they never make demands about American gays or women-thats BS..why would they possibly care about someone elses society?

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack View Post
    Really really good points....as always.


    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    Have to agree with you that it would be wonderful if there were no nukes (but then what about the B52's, ICBM's, gunships, tanks, suicide bombers, hijacked airliners, guns, knives, stones......). Never going to happen.

    And I also agree with you that we will one day inevitably run out of luck..
    Then you have to agree that limiting the countries that have nuclear weapons is priority number one?

    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    You say "Its not about good and bad guys". Unfortunately you introduce the concept by defining a group that you feel is acceptable to have nukes - good, trustworthy people. Your logic as to who should not have nukes is based on a very loose and vague definition of "stupid dictator" - implying bad, non-trustworthy people. That is human nature, classify into good/bad - pain/pleasure..
    Well not realy, I mean I dont introduce that concept. I dont think the current nuclear weapon states are either "good or bad". I agree with you that the entire concept of good and bad is rather pointless, if thats what your saying that is.

    I dont trust them to hold the power to determine the fate of the world. But atleast the US, Russia, China, UK and France has very rigorus safeguards ect when it comes to their nukes. They have been in the game for a long time and have (hopefully) weeded out most flaws in their systems. Things are pretty good betwen all those countries now aswell, nobody is worrying about a first strike from another of those countries.

    China is and USSR was dictatorships but its very hard for a truly crazy person(well Stalin and Mao wasnt realy angels but not suicidal either) to get to the top in those countries because there are so many other powerfull people. Pakistan on the other hand is a total unknown, nobody knows who will be in power a few years from now. Iran seems more stable than Pakistan, but I trust religious dictators even less than communist dictators because religion can disable the entire concept of MAD. If one side isnt afraid of death then MAD is pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    Who you can trust and who you cannot is completely relative to which side of the fence you are sitting on. Your group of "good" countries that you trust with nukes is fine for you, but for many it is not. For many the US poses a major threat and they aspire to be able to stand up to them. To be equal. That is also a natural human aspiration. Who says they cant..
    The world need to say they cant! Simply because its to dangerous for the world as a whole if those countries get nuclear weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    If the west was really serious about NPT they would lead by example. Then they would have the moral high-ground to insist on compliance with the NPT.
    I fully agree. The US and Russia should downsize their arsenals to a few hundred nukes as a first step. There is no need at all to have thousands of nukes, a few dozen is enough to totaly destroy all major cities of any large country.

    The "megatons to megawatts" program was a good start but it needs to be continued with a program to start burning the huge stockpiles of weapons grade plutonium that both the US and Russia is sitting on. This needs to be adressed by starting a joint program to develop actinid burning reactors. Without the ability to burn the plutonium dismantling the weapons is rather pointless.

    Anyway with the way things are now with Putin and Bush beeing equaly offensive assholes the chanses of more disarmament is slim. The US plans to place missile shields in europe basicly makes any disarmament impossible and the entire idea jepordize world safety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eliteforce View Post
    thats crap; The 'terrorists' don't give a fk about what americans are doing as far as women and gays are concerned, why would they? ..the issue is America's military presence in the persian gulf and it's imperialism in Iraq and it's support for Israeli imperialism and oppresion and it's denial of rights to the Palestinians which it expelled and now contains in segregated areas..and it's existence in general-which they deem to be unjust..the 'terrorists' always make demands and greivences concerning these issues; they never make demands about American gays or women-thats BS..why would they possibly care about someone elses society?
    Because their religion precludes them to. (i.e. infidels)

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