Teamsters to endorse Obama... GO OBAMA!

[Tock]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tock
How about the www.godhatesfags.com people? They're Christian, and they picket at the funerals of dead US servicemen.

Christians take all sorts of positions on all sorts of issues. They used to burn people for witchcraft. Now they don't. Which group is right?

Have you lost your mind?

Sure did. Years ago. I thought that was obvious.

What in the world makes you think I would say those people are true Christians,

IMHO, anyone who beleives they are a Christian, well, that's good enough for me. Who am I (or you, for that matter) to say that they are not?

Quakers beleive themselves to be Christians, as do Christian Scientists, Congregationalists, Mormons, Baptists, Shakers, snake handling pentecostals; Jerry Falwell beleived himself to be a Christian, as do The Pope, lots of converts in US prisons, Jimmy Swaggart, Bill Clinton, most everyone in the KKK, Mother Teresa, and lots of other people with very different interpretations of the Bible. Once upon a time, so did I.

Those idiots at www.godhatesfags.com beleive themselves to be Christians. They focus on a few Bible verses, and their interpretation of those verses are quite orthodox. If anything, when they advocate capital punishment for gays, they cite Bible verses supporting their view. If you oppose capital punishment for gays, well, you're opposing explicit Bible directives.

So,
if we agree that Christians comply with requirements expressed in the Bible,
and if the www.godhatesfags.com idiots agree that gays should be treated the way the Bible says (executed),
and if you disagree with those idiots,
then those idiots are more Christian than you are. And for that, I warmly congratulate you.

and how did you get that from my statement about Obama?

I have no idea how a man could call himself a Christian and take those positions on social issues. Talk about a hypocrite...

My point was,
Christians take wildly different positions on all sorts of issues. Some say you can't get into Heaven unless you're baptized with water, some extend that requirement to include the Holy Ghost, some say you get into Heaven by following tradition and ritual and doing what religious authorities tell you to do. Some say you don't have to be baptized at all.
One of the 10 Commandments says, "Keep the Sabbath Holy." There is no agreement in Christiandom about what day actually is the Sabbath, much less about how to keep the Sabbath holy, or even if it's necessary to do so.

It's a minor point in this discussion, but worthwhile to point out that there is little agreement on much of anything amongst Christians.

[alphaman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tock


IMHO, anyone who beleives they are a Christian, well, that's good enough for me. Who am I (or you, for that matter) to say that they are not?

Well... I will admit that I used the wrong choice of words, Obama's relationship with God is between him and God. But that's not to say that I think anyone could ever argue that abortion isn't wrong in the eyes of God. That could never stand up to scriptual scrutiny.

Quakers beleive themselves to be Christians, as do Christian Scientists, Congregationalists, Mormons, Baptists, Shakers, snake handling pentecostals; Jerry Falwell beleived himself to be a Christian, as do The Pope, lots of converts in US prisons, Jimmy Swaggart, Bill Clinton, most everyone in the KKK, Mother Teresa, and lots of other people with very different interpretations of the Bible. Once upon a time, so did I.

I realize that there are different groups of people that believe different things and call themselves Christians. But again, that doesn't mean all the views they have line up with the scripture. And if you studied the Bible like you say say you did... you know that just as well as I do.

Those idiots at www.godhatesfags.com beleive themselves to be Christians. They focus on a few Bible verses, and their interpretation of those verses are quite orthodox. If anything, when they advocate capital punishment for gays, they cite Bible verses supporting their view. If you oppose capital punishment for gays, well, you're opposing explicit Bible directives.

And again... if you know the Bible, you would know that in Jesus, there is a New Covenant. Not one of Law, but one of Grace. Does the Bible list homosexuality as a sin? Yes. Does it mean that God hates gay people, no. You can try to sensationalize it all you want, but facts are facts.

My point was,
Christians take wildly different positions on all sorts of issues. Some say you can't get into Heaven unless you're baptized with water, some extend that requirement to include the Holy Ghost, some say you get into Heaven by following tradition and ritual and doing what religious authorities tell you to do. Some say you don't have to be baptized at all.
One of the 10 Commandments says, "Keep the Sabbath Holy." There is no agreement in Christiandom about what day actually is the Sabbath, much less about how to keep the Sabbath holy, or even if it's necessary to do so.

It's a minor point in this discussion, but worthwhile to point out that there is little agreement on much of anything amongst Christians.

All the things you listed above are interpretation issues. I challenge you to find a verse that could be interpreted as saying, "murdering a baby when it could survive on it's own because the mother doesn't want it to live, is okay" or abortion at all, for that matter. In Leviticus, chapter 20, where the verse you love to talk about is... it lists child sacrifice as a horrible sin. And it could be argued that an abortion is a sacrifice. A sacrifice for the mother's "life" or "freedom" or whatever other excuse she may have.

[Tock]

Well... I will admit that I used the wrong choice of words, Obama's relationship with God is between him and God. But that's not to say that I think anyone could ever argue that abortion isn't wrong in the eyes of God. That could never stand up to scriptual scrutiny.

So say some theologians. Others say different. Who's gonna settle this theological difference of opinion? IMHO, it shouldn't be the US court system. Or you.
I'll be happy to settle it, though. My opinion on theological matters is better informed than anyone elses, so it should count for more.

I realize that there are different groups of people that believe different things and call themselves Christians. But again, that doesn't mean all the views they have line up with the scripture.

So say you. Which views are "True" or "Correct" or "line up with the scripture" is something that only I can decide (or maybe only certain theologians can decide, or only American politicians can decide, or only the Pope can decide; or only the GodHatesFags.com people can decide).

Get my point?

And again... if you know the Bible, you would know that in Jesus, there is a New Covenant. Not one of Law, but one of Grace.

Theologically speaking, I'll agree.

However, the minute someone tries to live by the old Law and forgets Grace, then they are mistakenly thinking that their "filthy rags" of self-righteousness (as the Bible puts it) are sufficient to earn God's approval & entry into Heaven.

So, the minute someone says that people are obliged to live according to the Old Testament Law condemning homosexuality, as the www.godhatesfags.com people do (and, as I suspect you do), then they themselves are under the Old Law, and not the New Covenant.

All the things you listed above are interpretation issues.

Yep. And these are religious issues that can be (and are) interpreted either way. So, why should everyone be required by law to comply with either Bible interpretion? IMHO, it would be best for the secular government to allow people to indulge their own religious views any way they wish, and not pass laws that mandate either interpretation.

I challenge you to find a verse that could be interpreted as saying, "murdering a baby when it could survive on it's own because the mother doesn't want it to live, is okay"

How about the event reported in Exodus (again, fictitious) where

1) Jehovah told Moses to tell Pharaoh to "Let My people go!"
2) then Jehovah "hardened" Pharaoh's heart so that he would refuse the request
3) then Jehovah murdered the first born son of every Egyptian family, to punish Pharaoh for refusing the request

What's up with that? Jehovah definitely comes across as a sadistic dude; a SOB, and not something to be worshipped and revered.
Of course, that's just my opinion. Other folks might think that sort of thing is ok.

[alphaman]

So say some theologians. Others say different. Who's gonna settle this theological difference of opinion? IMHO, it shouldn't be the US court system. Or you.

Hah... got me there.

So say you. Which views are "True" or "Correct" or "line up with the scripture" is something that only I can decide (or maybe only certain theologians can decide, or only American politicians can decide, or only the Pope can decide; or only the GodHatesFags.com people can decide).

Get my point?

I see the point you're trying to make, but it's incorrect and skewed by listening to people rather than actually examining the scripture. Some things line up, and some don't. Proof-texting has run amuck, but that doesn't mean that one can't derive truth from scripture.

Theologically speaking, I'll agree.

However, the minute someone tries to live by the old Law and forgets Grace, then they are mistakenly thinking that their "filthy rags" of self-righteousness (as the Bible puts it) are sufficient to earn God's approval & entry into Heaven.

So, the minute someone says that people are obliged to live according to the Old Testament Law condemning homosexuality, as the www.godhatesfags.com people do (and, as I suspect you do), then they themselves are under the Old Law, and not the New Covenant.

Jesus didn't come to wipe the Law away, but to fufill it. The New Covenant doesn't mean the Law was wrong, but rather, that it's not a matter of salvation. The minute you thnk your "righteousness" will get you into heaven is the moment it becomes as filthy rags. The point of that verse is to show that your righteousness will never get you into heaven... that you need the grace of God by accepting that you can't do it on your own... but that you need his GRACE.

Yep. And these are religious issues that can be (and are) interpreted either way. So, why should everyone be required by law to comply with either Bible interpretion? IMHO, it would be best for the secular government to allow people to indulge their own religious views any way they wish, and not pass laws that mandate either interpretation.

While some things are hard to interpret in the Bible, ending a life that God created for selfish purposes is not. It is forbidden.

Exodus 20:13

13 "You shall not murder.

How about the event reported in Exodus (again, fictitious) where

1) Jehovah told Moses to tell Pharaoh to "Let My people go!"
2) then Jehovah "hardened" Pharaoh's heart so that he would refuse the request
3) then Jehovah murdered the first born son of every Egyptian family, to punish Pharaoh for refusing the request

What's up with that? Jehovah definitely comes across as a sadistic dude; a SOB, and not something to be worshipped and revered.
Of course, that's just my opinion. Other folks might think that sort of thing is ok.

Exodus 1:22
22 Then Pharaoh gave this order to all his people: "Every boy that is born [a] you must throw into the Nile, but let every girl live."

War is ugly. The same assault was committed on God's people regardless of the Pharaoh receiving warnings. Unfortunately, the innocent have paid for the sins of others throughout history, as is the case with the aborted.

[Carlos_E]

Well... I will admit that I used the wrong choice of words, Obama's relationship with God is between him and God.

Indeed it is and that's what I was calling you on.

[alphaman]

Indeed it is and that's what I was calling you on.

Thanks for keeping me honest.

I should have used a different choice of words.