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  1. #1
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    Quote Originally Posted by xlxBigSexyxlx View Post
    Thats the problem.

    Worship me, praise me, me me me me me
    or you shall burn and torture forever and ever and ever


    What an awesome guy I tell you. Can't wait to see him!
    CLOSE, BUT NOT EXACTLY THE WAY HE SEES IT. MORE LIKE YOU SINNED, LEFT ME, I DIED TO PROVIDE A WAY BACK, YOU REFUSED TO TAKE IT, WHICH MEANS YOU REAP THE END RESULT OF HAVING SINNED WHICH HAPPENS TO BE THE AFOREMENTIONED BURNING AND TORTURING FOREVER AND LET US NOT FORGET WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH…HEY THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH BUDDY AND EVERY BILL EVENTUALLY COMES DUE.

    --------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkake31 View Post
    It's impossible to be sinless in your entire life period.
    TRUE!
    AND ESPECIALLY SO WHEN YOU’RE BORN INTO IT, WHICH MAKES THE REDEEMER/SACRIFICE/CHRIST SO VERY NECESSARY!
    -----------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by rockinred View Post
    I have read the bible cover to cover three times and have also read various books in the bible many times over that....

    I never read anything about hell.....Hell is an english term, Jesus referenced a place called Gehenna (which was in Jeruselem), and also some letters in the epistles interchanged the term Gehenna with Hades (greek term).... another term is Sheol (place of the dead or grave in Hebrew).... all these terms are loosely interchanged with the english word Hell. This causes the misconception of what Hell like you are stating above is, with what those original terms meant.

    The only place everyone goes to is the grave (dead)....and belief in Jesus as the savior gives one the chance of eternal life and to be ressurected (rised up, brought forth) from the grave or dead state into life at the appointed time...
    OKAY, ALL THAT MAY BE TRUE AS WELL, BUT SOMEHOW YOU MISSED “HELL” THE PLACE OF OUTER DARKNESS, ORIGINALLY CREATED AS A PUNISHMENT AND TORTURE FOR FALLEN ANGELS, SO HERE:

    • Mat 25:41
      Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    • Mat 8:12
      But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    • Mat 22:13
      Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    • Mat 24:51
      And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    • Mat 25:30
      And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    • Luk 13:28
      There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.


    IT SHOULD ALSO BE NOTED THAT “YES” THIS SAME HELL IS FOR SINNERS BUT NEED TO BE BIGGER FOR SO MANY GUESTS…

    • Isa 5:14
      Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
    • Isa 5:15
      And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:




    --------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by calgarian View Post

    I am just wondering why does it matter which religion you belong to as long as you are good human being???
    THIS IS A VERY GOOD QUESTION AND GOD’S ANSWER IS THAT FIRSTLY WE WERE BORN IN SIN, OF SINFUL PARENTS. A CONDITION NO DIFFERENT THAN BEING BORN BLACK, WHITE, ETC. SECONDLY, WHO DETERMINES WHAT GOOD IS? ARE YOU GOOD BECAUSE YOU HAVEN’T KILLED A MAN, WHAT ABOUT THEFT, LYING, FORNICATION, ETC.? BUT IT’S REALLY THE FIRST REASON THAT MAKES US SINFUL, THE SECOND IS MERELY A MANIFESTATION OF OUR SIN NATURE, WHICH AS PAUL PUT IT:

    • Rom 3:10
      As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:



    ---------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by ecto9 View Post
    I don't understand all the kaos in the world either. Not letting it affect my belief in God at this point, just putting it off till it will all be revealed to us later (judgement day/next life)...
    WELL, SIN AND DEATH ARE THE HARBINGERS OF DECAY SO ONCE THEY CAME INTO THE WORLD THROUGH ADAM, CHAOS FOLLOWED:
    • Rom 5:12
      Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


    PLUS THE FACT THAT THOUGH SATAN (DESCRIBED AS THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD OR OF THE AIR) MAY NOT BE HEAVILY WORSHIPPED but HIS SYSTEM IS, AND THAT TOO IS ONE OF CHAOS AND ANIMOSITY TOWARDS GOD.
    • Jhn 12:31
      Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
    • Jhn 14:30
      Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
    • Jhn 16:11
      Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
    • Eph 2:2
      Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:



    -----------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by xlxBigSexyxlx View Post
    lol these threads go nowhere!!

    Its all about faith. The truth is, what you want it to be.
    IF WHAT YOU SAY IS CORRECT, THEN EVERY MAN HAS HIS OWN TRUTH, AND SURELY YOU DON’T BELIEVE SUCH A THING? BUT LET’S GO A STEP FURTHER, WHAT IF EVERYONE IS IN AGREEMENT ON TRUTH, WOULD THAT MAKE EVEN A FALSEHOOD TRUE? HMM, GETTING DEEP IN HERE…
    • IT WAS ONCE LARGELY AGREED THAT THE WORLD WAS FLAT, BUT THAT MADE IT NO LESS ROUND.
    • AND OF COURSE THERE WAS WIDESPREAD GEOCENTRISM (EARTH CENTER OF UNIVERSE), BUT THAT DIDN’T NULLIFY THE TRUTH OF HELIOCENTRISM (SUN CENTER).


    SO THERE IS "REAL" TRUTH, AND EITHER GOD EXISTS OR HE DOES NOT. TWO DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED ASSERTIONS CANNOT BE TRUE, NOR CAN A MAN'S BELIEF MAKE AN UNTRUTH TRUE


    What makes your god any more credible than that of the Greek Gods?
    other religions? etc.
    FIRSTLY, THEY WERE CREATED BY MAN, WHEREAS CHRIST (GOD THE SON) WALKED AMONG US AND UNLESS HE WAS A MASS HYPNOTIST DID THINGS ONLY A GOD CAN DO.

    Whose to say whose right and whose wrong?
    TRUTH!

    I don't like organized religion. Do I believe in Jesus?
    No. Im sure there was a "jesus", but some miracle working messiah? I dont think so.
    HOW CAN YOU SEPARATE THE MAN FROM HIS WORKS? YOU’D BE BETTER OFF WITH TOCK CLAIMING “THERE WAS NO MAN”.

    This is my opinion/view, and were each entitled to. If people choose to believe, and it causes them to have a better life/be a better person, more power to them.
    A quote I've always kind of liked is:

    "I contend we are both atheists; I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

    THIS IS A VERY AMUSING PIECE OF LITERATURE, ISN'T WORD-PLAY WONDERFUL?
    --------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by DSM4Life View Post
    So i accept hell.
    DOESN’T NOT DOING SOMETHING IN LIFE EQUATE TO ACCEPTING THE CONSEQUENCES?
    • NOT EATING MEANS ACCEPTING HUNGER.
    • NOT SLEEPING MEANS ACCEPTING FATIGUE.
    • NOT GOING TO CLASS OR STUDYING MEANS ACCEPTING LOWER GRADES.
    • NOT GETTING A JOB MEANS ACCEPTING NOT GETTING A CHECK.


    SO “YES” THAT’S WHAT THE BIBLE IS SAYING ABOUT NOT ACCEPTING JESUS…ACCEPTING HELL!

    -----------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc.Sust View Post
    news flash...they are christians! if you believe in chirst , you are christian, you dont have to be born again or any other denomination to be christian.

    A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity, a monotheistic religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as presented in the New Testament and interpreted by Christians to have been prophesied in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament

    theologians consider a Christian to be anyone who accepts the Nicene Creed. This ancient text is accepted by Catholics, the Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans and all the remaining mainline Protestant Churches.
    I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING ACCEPT THE “NOT HAVING TO BE BORN AGAIN” PART, UNLESS I’M SOMEHOW MISUNDERSTANDING YOU OR YOUR CONTEXT. THE BIBLE MAKES IT CLEAR, EVEN FROM THE VERY LIPS OF JESUS IN RESPONSE TO NICODEMUS’ FAMOUS QUESTION:
    • Jhn 3:1
      There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
    • Jhn 3:2
      The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
    • Jhn 3:3
      Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    • Jhn 3:4
      Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    • Jhn 3:5
      Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    • Jhn 3:6
      That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    • Jhn 3:7
      Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    • 1Pe 1:23
      Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


    -------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tock View Post
    That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it.

    However, if you were to expand your acquaintance with theologians, you would discover that quite a few take Jesus as a fictitious figure, and not as a historical one.
    THAT’S THERE OPINION AND THEY ARE WELCOME TO IT… BUT THIS TOPIC IS MOOT.

    BUT HOW DO WE KNOW OTHER HISTORICAL FIGURES WHO PREDATE PHOTOGRAPHY ACTUALLY EXISTED? EASY THEY WERE WRITTEN ABOUT BY MULTIPLE NON-FICTION CONTEMPORARIES…I.E. HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION, WHICH APPLIES HERE, ALONG WITH CHRISTMAS (BIRTH, REGARDLESS OF ACTUAL DATE), GOOD FRIDAY (DEATH), EASTER (RESURRECTION) OH AND THAT LITTLE ISSUE OF HOW TIME ITSELF IS MEASURED…BC & AD. OR ARE THEY ALL JUST AS FANCIFUL?

    -----------------


    Quote Originally Posted by WEBB View Post
    and this is why the religion forum was closed...cause someone is going to go to far and this thread will be locked...religion is not something to debate over the net....fuK
    I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE HERE, AS LONG AS THE TITLE DENOTES CHRISTIAN CONTENT, MEANING THE THREAD IS PEMITTED. ANYONE FOUND FLAMING OR BEING OVERLY DISCOURTEOUS SHOULD BE DEALT WITH ACCORDING TO THE RULES THAT GOVERN SAID BEHAVIOR.

    THEY DON’T HAVE TO BE IN THIS THREAD!


    -----------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotron View Post
    Find me some secular evidence that Jesus even existed or that the crucifixtion even occured. There is no evidence for a Jesus existing with the exception of your Gospels. The New Testament is nothing more than Old Testament midrash.
    AH, EXTRA-BIBLICAL WRITINGS!
    DON’T YOU RECALL THIS BEING COVERED?


    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ighlight=bible
    (post #268)


    DID YOU CHANGE SIDES PSYCH, YOUR ATTITUDE IN THIS THREAD IS DECISIVELY ANTI-GOD, UNLIKE MY THREAD.

    ----------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by *Narkissos* View Post
    I think the net is the best place actually.

    -CNS
    IF NOT, IT IS CERTAINLY A GOOD ONE.

    NARK,
    BE SURE TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE ABOVE CITED LINK, I THINK YOU’LL FIND IT PARTICULARLY INTERESTING.


    ------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by lovbyts View Post
    How many stalkers, psychos and molesters say they did it out of love?

    I like the idea of teach dont preach. Forcing someone even out of love is 100% not right.
    EXCELLENT POINT…FREE WILL.
    GOD DIDN’T DO IT (FORCE US THAT IS), ADAM HAD A CLEAR CHOICE TO REJECT EVE’S APPLE PROPOSAL. BUT IT SURE DIDN’T HELP THAT SHE WAS NAKED WHEN SHE MADE IT.

    -------------------------

    [QUOTE=rockinred;3995045]The only secular writings to occur during that time were the writings of Josephus... QUOTE]

    THERE ARE OTHERS, SEE THE OTHER THREAD.
    ----------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tock View Post
    He didn't.
    FALSE.

    Also, Jesus was prophesied to have been the son of King David, but if you check out the genaologies given in the New Testament, you'll find that while one version shows Jesus to be the son of Joseph who was a descendant of David, the other version shows Jesus to be the son of Mary, who was not a descendant of David.
    FALSE, ACTUALLY BOTH ARE, AS THE BIBLE GOES TO GREAT LENGTHS TO MAKE THIS POINT ABUNDANTLY CLEAR!

    JESUS' GENEALOLOGY:
    • Mat 1:1 - 16
    • The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.


    • Luk 3:23 - 38
      And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son-in-law] of Heli,


    MATTHEW RECORDS JOSEPH’S GENEALOGY, AND LUKE RECORDS JESUS’ GENEALOGY THROUGH MARY.

    BOTH MARY AND JOSEPH WERE OF THE ROYAL HOUSE OF DAVID-- THIS IS SO IMPORTANT, AS WE SHALL EXAMINE. BOTH JOSEPH'S AND MARY'S GENEALOGY ARE RECORDED TO PREVENT JUST THIS TYPE OF FALSE CLAIM.

    MATTHEW POINTS OUT JESUS' PLACE IN THE ROYAL SUCCESSION.
    LUKE GIVES US HIS ACTUAL PHYSICAL ANCESTRY THROUGH MARY'S BLOODLINE.

    JOSEPH'S GENEALOGY IS RECORDED BECAUSE OUR LORD JESUS WAS THE ADOPTED SON OF JOSEPH, WHO WAS A SON OF DAVID. WHEN YOU ADOPT A CHILD, HE LEGALLY BECOMES YOUR CHILD, YOUR HEIR, AND THAT CHILD TAKES ON THE FAMILY NAME.


    SO IF YOU WANT TO PULL THE NOT REALLY JOSEPH’S BLOOD CARD (THE LAST REFUGE OF A DESPERATE NON-BELIEVER, MARY STILL COVERS THE BILL AS STATED ABOVE JUST FOLLOW IT BACK!


    So, though CS Lewis said, "Jesus is either Lord, lunatic, or liar," there's another option. Jesus is a work of fiction, and that's all there is to that.
    TRUE!
    I’M SURPRISED TO AGREE WITH TOCK HERE, BUT ALTHOUGH JESUS COULD BE A LUNATIC LIAR, LORD (GOD) IS INCONSISTENT WITH THE OTHERS, AND BASED ON HIS ACTS (PLEASE DON’T QUESTION VALIDITY HERE). THOSE INHUMAN ACTS ARE PART OF WHY HE IS SO REMEMBERED, OBSERVED, AND WORSHIPPED.


    • Jhn 10:25
      Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
    • Jhn 10:38
      But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

    ---------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotron View Post
    I still chuckle at the continuous statements that it is a 100% historical fact that Jesus the Christ was a real person as depicted by the gospels. You do realize the gospels weren't written by the people they were attributed to?
    SO THEN ALSO FICTIONAL ARE THE MULTIPLE HOLIDAY OBSERVANCES OF HIM, THE ARGUMENT OF TIME (AD & BC), AND THE CITED NON-RELIGIOUS WORKS CITED IN THE LINK ABOVE?

    OR SHOULD WE JUST PRETEND THEM AWAY SO THAT OUR LIVES CAN TRULY BE OUR OWN RATHER THAN BELONGING TO HIM?

    ----------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by BgMc31 View Post
    Still no one has answered the question as to why Jesus and/or God for that matter ever put pen to pad?
    ARE YOU SERIOUS, HERE? IF SO THE ANSWER IS NO, NEITHER WROTE ABOUT THEMSELVES/HIMSELF, THIS MUCH IS VERY CLEAR.

    Religion is a personal choice. Leave it at that! You cannot convince a non-believer anymore than a non-believer can convince you. For every so-called expert you point to in order to prove your religion is true, someone can point out an equal number (if not more) that it doesn't.
    PROBABLY THE TRUEST WORDS I’VE EVER READ. ANALYTICAL ARGUMENTS CANNOT PERSUADE THE SOULS OF MEN, ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT CAN DO THIS, WHICH BEGS THE QUESTION OF THE “ELECT”. THIS IS A GUARANTEED CAN OF WORMS.


    Fact remains Christianity is relatively new in the history of man.
    UNTRUE, THE OLD TESTAMENT IS FILLED WITH ALLUSIONS TO THE COMING CHRIST, MAKING IT QUITE OLD INDEED.

    But you cannot fault a person because he/she doesn't need YOUR God to be a better person.
    A BETTER PERSON MAYBE, BUT NOT SINLESS BEFORE GOD, WHICH IS HIS REQUIREMENT OF US. AND AS PAUL PUT IT:

    • Rom 3:10
    • As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


    • …WHICH IS PRECISELY WHY REQUIRED A SACRIFICE (FOR RIGHT STANDING) AND WHY DENIAL OF HIM IS TANTAMOUNT TO DAMNATION, BECAUSE WE ARE IN SIN (REGARDLESS OF HOW GOOD WE THINK WE ARE) AND THUS LOST.
    • The divisive nature of religion is the reason why the world is in peril now.
    • THIS IS UNTRUE…THE REASON IS “SIN”.

    --------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by ecto9 View Post
    But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. ICor 1:27-29
    AMEN!
    ---------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    Funny how we argue and fight for centuries about the existence of a god we have never seen.

    Christianity? Not for me. Santa for adults.
    SADLY MANY THINGS WE'VE NEVER SEEN DO INDEED EXIST.
    MIGHT I IN HONOR OF TOCK, BORROW A SECULAR QUOTE FROM THE IMMORTAL BARD?


    “…THERE ARE MORE THINGS ON HEAVEN AND EARTH THAN ARE DREAMT OF IN YOUR PHILOSOPHIES, HORATIO…”
    - HAMLET
    -------------------
    GOOD QUOTES QUALITYCLRK1.

    Quote Originally Posted by qualityclrk1 View Post
    Religion has convinced people that there’s an invisible man…living in the sky, who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn’t want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer and burn and scream until the end of time. BUT HE LOVES YOU! He loves you and he needs money....-George Carlin
    NO, GEORGE CARLIN GOD DOESN’T SEND YOU ANYWHERE, YOUR ETERNAL ADDRESS IS UP TO YOU.

    Quote Originally Posted by qualityclrk1 View Post
    another good quote:

    "I am often made sick when a rich person in a rich nation attributes some minor blessing to God on account of his faith and prayers when the same God allows thousands of orphaned, exploited, abused, malnourished, homeless, innocent children to die in filthy gutters around the world every single day." - David Mann
    DAVID MANN IS A GOOD WRITER, BUT I’M NOTICING A TREND HERE, AGAIN YOUR QUOTE BLAMES GOD FOR MAN’S POOR DECISIONS. SHALL WE NEXT BLAME HIM FOR GLOBAL WARMING AND OZONE DEPLETION AS WELL? INTERESTING!

    Quote Originally Posted by qualityclrk1 View Post
    and one for everyone to ponder:

    "Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense." - Mark Twain
    I DO LIKE THE MARK TWAIN ONE THOUGH. THIS IS THE SAME ARGUMENT I USE FOR E V O L U T I O N ISTS, AND BIG BANGERS.

    AN ALL-POWERFUL GOD CREATING ALL THAT THERE IS MAY BE FANCIFUL, BUT BELIEVING THAT IT ALL JUST CAME FROM NOTHING IS FAR MORE FAIRYTALE-LIKE…DON’T YOU THINK? WHAT OTHER PRECEDENT DO HAVE FOR NOTHING + NOTHING = ANYTHING, MUCH LESS EVERYTHING???

    ----------------------------------
    AH, SIR ALBERT!
    WELL LET’S TAKE A LOOK MR. GENIUS…


    Quote Originally Posted by Lexed View Post
    Great qoute of the man Einstien

    "I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves.

    DO WE NOT REWARD AND PUNISH OUR CHILDREN? WHY THEN WOULD A GOD WHO CLAIMS TO HAVE CREATED US IN HIS IMAGE NOT DO THE SAME?

    Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death;

    WHAT PHYSICAL DEATH AL…FORGETTING ABOUT HIS ETERNAL NATURE ARE WE?

    let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts.
    YOU’D THINK ONE SO DEEPLY ENTRENCHED IN THE UNDERSTANDING THAT ENERGY MERELY CHANGES FORM WOULD BE MORE OPEN TO AN ETERNAL SOUL, BUT TO EACH HIS OWN.

    I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature."
    OBVIOUS FLUFF AND RAMBLING, UNTIL THE END WHERE HE’S MERELY CONGRATULATING HIMSELF ON HIS OWN DISCOVERIES.

    MAYBE AL SHOULD STICK TO PHYSICS AND LEAVE METAPHYSICS TO THOSE WHO ARE BETTER QUALIFIED FOR THE TASK.
    --------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by MATTMAN01 View Post
    It amazes me how people prefer to trust in the vain wisdom of man to justify their own lifestyle instead of believing the bible, which if they investigated has all been proven to be true except where it talks about the end of this world.
    ELOQUENT!

    Quote Originally Posted by MATTMAN01 View Post
    To disobey God is to move out of the realm of which he works;ie blessings etc. You don't get punished.
    THIS IS BOTH TRUE AND FALSE. THE NON-BELIEVER DOESN’T GET PUNISHED, JUST AS YOU WOULDN’T PUNISH A STRANGER’S CHILD. BUT THE BELIEVER CERTAINLY DOES!!!

    • Hbr 12:7
      If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    • Hbr 12:6
      For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
    • Deu 8:5
      Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, [so] the LORD thy God chasteneth thee.
    • Rev 3:19
      As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
    Master Pai Mei of the White Lotus Clan



    My motto: SAFETY & RESPECT (for drugs and others).

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    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=306144


    BE CAREFUL!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by magic32 View Post
    AH, EXTRA-BIBLICAL WRITINGS!
    DON’T YOU RECALL THIS BEING COVERED?

    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ighlight=bible
    (post #268)
    You cited a lot, but only two even date close to the supposed existence of Jesus. The others are 100 or more years after his time. Just like the gospels, they shouldn't be considered of any historical importance for knowing the truth.

    I still can't believe you even mention Josephus, almost all scholars believe the entry in his writings regarding the Messiah Jesus was a later interpolation.


    Flavius Josephus

    Of all the ancient historians claimed to bear witness to the existence of Jesus, Josephus is without a doubt the one cited most frequently by Christians. He was a respected Jewish historian who worked for the Romans under the patronage of Emperor Vespasian; born around 37 CE, he is also the closest to the time of Jesus of all the historians cited by apologists. His two major surviving works are titled The Antiquities of the Jews, a detailed history of the Jewish people based largely on biblical records, and The Jewish War, a history of the disastrous Jewish revolt against the Roman occupation of Jerusalem around 70 CE.

    Antiquities, book 18, chapter 3, contains the most infamous reference to Jesus to be found in the work of any historian. Few passages have ignited as much debate as this one, the so-called Testimonium Flavianum, whose full text appears below:

    "Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named after him, are not extinct at this day."

    To anyone unfamiliar with the debates swirling around this passage, it might appear to provide startling corroboration of the Gospel stories in virtually every detail. In fact, it seems too fantastic to be true. And indeed, this is the consensus of the overwhelming majority of critical scholars today. No one argues other than that the Testimonium Flavianum is, at least in part, a forgery, a later interpolation into Josephus' work. We can be certain of this for several reasons. One is that the enthusiastic endorsement of Jesus' miracles could only have been written by a Christian, and Josephus was not a Christian. He was an orthodox Jew and remained so his entire life. The church father Origen, who quoted freely from Josephus, wrote that he was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ". Furthermore, in The Jewish War, Josephus specifically states his belief that the Roman emperor Vespasian was the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies - which is what got him his job in the first place.

    So, imagine we remove the obvious Christian interpolations - phrases such as "if it be lawful to call him a man", "he was the Christ", and "he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold". Could we let the rest remain, preserving a "reduced" Testimonium in which Josephus testifies to the simple existence of Jesus as a teacher and wise man without touting him as a messiah or a miracle-worker?

    This is the position taken by most Christian scholars today, but it too is flawed. For one thing, even the "reduced" Testimonium still praises Jesus highly. This is very unlikely. Elsewhere Josephus does mention other self-proclaimed messiahs of the time, such as Judas of Galilee and Theudas the magician, but he has nothing but evil to say about them. He scorns them as deceivers and deluders, labels them "false prophets", "impostors" and "cheats", blames them for wars and famines that afflicted the Jews, and more. This is entirely understandable, since Josephus was writing under Roman patronage, and the Romans did not look highly on the self-proclaimed messiahs of the time since many of them preached about overturning the established order, i.e., Roman rule. ("The meek shall inherit the earth" would have fallen squarely into this category, as would "I came not to send peace, but a sword.") Some messiah claimants went even further by actively confronting the established authority and sowing dissent (Jesus' expulsion of the money-changers from the temple comes to mind). The Romans were prone to express their displeasure at these types of activities by executing the messiah claimants, several other examples of which Josephus does tell us about. Had Josephus genuinely written about Jesus he would have been compelled to denounce him, not only because of his orthodox Jewish beliefs but because he had to stay in accord with Roman views or risk being imprisoned or worse. It is all but impossible that he could have written even the "reduced" Testimonium.

    There are other good reasons to believe this entire passage is a forgery; namely, it does not fit with the context. Book 18, chapter 3 of Antiquities begins with an account of a massacre of Jews by Pilate in retaliation for their protests against his use of sacred money; then comes the Testimonium, and then the next paragraph begins, "And about the same time, another terrible misfortune confounded the Jews..." It is inconceivable that Josephus, an orthodox Jew, would have considered the death of Jesus to be a Jewish misfortune. (Of course, it could be argued that the misfortune he was referring to was not the death of Jesus, but rather the founding of Christianity. In that case, however, the question must again be asked, how can this be squared with the enthusiastic praise for Jesus found in even the "reduced" Testimonium?) On the other hand, if the passage is removed entirely, the preceding and succeeding paragraphs naturally fit together.

    One final argument can be made against the authenticity of the Testimonium - it does not appear anywhere until the fourth century CE. In the second century, the church father Origen defended Christianity against the attacks of the pagan Celsus; he freely quotes from Josephus to support his points, but never once mentions the Testimonium, though it would seem to be the ultimate ace in the hole. Modern apologists rationalize this by claiming that Origen was unaware of the existence of this passage, but this seems weak in light of the fact that he did demonstrate familiarity with Josephus' works, and even weaker when one understands they are asking us to believe that not a single apologist before the 300s happened to notice this paragraph or thought it worthy of mention. The first Christian who quoted the Testimonium was Eusebius, in the fourth century; some scholars believe that he was the one who forged it.

    There is another brief passage in Josephus that mentions Jesus. Antiquities, book 20, chapter 9, contains the following:

    "Festus was now dead, and Albinus was put upon the road; so he [Ananus, the Jewish high priest] assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, him called Christ, whose name was James, and some others. And when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned...."

    This passage is not as obviously a forgery as the Testimonium Flavianum. However, a more oblique line of attack is possible, which runs as follows:

    Josephus was a Jewish historian, but he worked under the sponsorship of the Roman emperor Vespasian; he was writing for a Roman audience. A Roman audience would not have been familiar with the concepts of Jewish messianic expectation, and would not have known what the word "Christ" meant. It would only have confused them if that idea had been thrown in without explanation - and yet, if we reject the Testimonium as the obvious forgery it is, this brief snippet is the only use of the term anywhere in any of Josephus' writings, provided without further elaboration. Since it is highly unlikely that Josephus would have used this term without explaining what it meant, it is therefore probable that this phrase is an interpolation as well.

    When we conclude this, several things fall into place. One is the puzzling word order of this paragraph - why would Josephus have thought to mention Jesus first, when the passage is actually about someone else entirely? But it makes perfect sense that a Christian interpolator, consciously or unconsciously, would have given pride of place to his savior's name. Another is the phrasing of the passage. Some have translated the crucial phrase as "the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ." However, this translation is not supported by the original Greek - in fact, the original Greek words used are identical (except for being in a slightly different case) to the wording of Matthew 1:16.

    It is true that these things might be coincidences. However, there is yet another anomaly. Reading the rest of chapter 9, we learn that the Jews were so angered by the stoning of James that they wrote to the king, Agrippa, demanding that Ananus be fired. Why would Jews be so upset over the killing of an apostate, a Christian leader, that they would attempt to depose their own high priest?

    None of these four points are conclusive by themselves. However, when we add them all up, the combined weight of the evidence points strongly to the conclusion that this, too, is a later Christian interpolation. Perhaps Josephus was discussing someone else, some random Jew named James, and a later Christian commentator mistakenly assumed that it was Jesus' brother who was being referred to but was bothered that Josephus did not say so, so made that connection himself by inserting the "brother of Jesus, him called Christ" phrase.

    This conclusion makes good sense and makes the passage less jarring, more easily fit within context. After all, if Josephus really had written the "him called Christ" phrase, it is difficult to believe he would have left it at that without further elaboration. After all, to call someone "Christ" is a claim that is presumptuous in the extreme - it makes that person out to be the God-sent messiah, the long-awaited savior the Jews had been promised who would establish God's kingdom on earth for all time. It seems very likely that Josephus would include at least a brief discussion of the actions of the person who would dare to take such a lofty mantle on himself, even if he did not believe that person's messianic claims. But no such discussion is to be found anywhere in Josephus, and thus we can confidently conclude that this is because he never wrote this phrase in the first place.

    Suetonius

    Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus was a Roman biographer and historian whose most famous work is titled The Lives of the Twelve Caesars, a biography of twelve Roman emperors livened up with gossip and stories of scandal. Written about 120 CE, the book contains one passage apologists frequently cite:

    "Because the Jews of Rome caused continous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from the city."

    As historical evidence for the existence of Jesus, this verse is very weak. A number of anomalies immediately crop up upon reading it. One is that Jesus' name is seemingly misspelled. But on further examination, this may not be a misspelling at all. "Chrestus" does not mean "Christ" (that would have been "Christus") - rather, "Chrestus" was a perfectly valid Latin name in its own right, and a very common one as well. It may well be that this passage is referring to some unknown Jewish agitator, perhaps another messianic pretender such as the ones Josephus describes. Furthermore, Claudius was the Roman emperor from 41 to 54 CE. There is no indication historically that Christianity had spread to Rome by this time, or that it was powerful enough to have caused a revolt. Note, too, that the passage says it was not Christians who were causing disturbances, but Jews - and Suetonius does write about Christians elsewhere in his works, so he plainly knew the difference.

    Finally, it is worth noting when this passage was written. After Josephus, the chronologically nearest witness to Jesus' life the apologists have to offer, we now leap to 120 CE. An ambiguous reference to a person who might have been Christianity's founder, written over seventy years after his supposed death, is hardly compelling evidence for the existence of Jesus.

    There is another brief verse in Suetonius that apologists occasionally cite:

    "After the great fire at Rome [during Nero's reign].... Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief."

    Note the second question at the beginning of this essay - what did the historian write? This brief passage mentions nothing about the existence of Jesus, and thus is worthless as evidence of his existence. It merely proves that there were Christians in 120 CE, which no one disputes.

    Pliny the Younger

    For two years the proconsul of Bythinia, a Roman-held province in Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger is best known for several letters he wrote to the Emperor Trajan around 112 CE that provide information on life at the time. One of them says this:

    "[The Christians] were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god...."

    Again, note the second criterion. This passage mentions nothing about a historical Jesus, nor does it vouch for the existence of any such person. It merely states that the Christians worshipped Christ, but this proves nothing, just as a verse about the Romans worshipping Zeus would not demonstrate that such a being existed. (Note too that "Christ" is a title, not a name.) This verse does not state that this Christ was ever on Earth - it does not even state that the Christians believed he was. Thus, it is entirely compatible with an early Christianity worshipping a spiritual Christ whose death and resurrection took place in Heaven; but even if not, one hundred years is more than enough time for legends about a historical man to take root.

    Tacitus

    Another Roman historian, Cornelius Tacitus' surviving works consist of the Germania, the Histories, and the Annals, written around 115 CE. One passage late in the Annals, book 15, chapter 44, has another mention of Jesus:

    "Consequently, to get rid of the report [that he was responsible for the great fire], Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind."

    This passage is very likely authentic to Tacitus; a Christian interpolator would not have written such uncomplimentary things about his own religion. (Compare this to the glowing tone of even the "reduced" Testimonium Flavianum.) But again, as with the other historians, it is important to note that Tacitus did not write this until almost one hundred years after Jesus supposedly lived. Thus, he cannot provide first-hand evidence for the existence of Jesus, and it therefore makes sense to ask where he did get his information from - what his sources were.

    The idea that Tacitus got his information from official Roman records seems highly unlikely. There is no evidence that the Romans kept meticulous records extending back almost a century of every single crucifixion carried out in every corner of the empire, and that possibility is further reduced by the fact that Rome had essentially burned to the ground in the interim (which is what Tacitus was writing about in the quoted paragraph). The most likely scenario is that Tacitus was getting his facts from contemporary Christian sources; he would have had no reason to doubt them. This passage, therefore, is probably based on later Christian hearsay and is weak as evidence for a historical Jesus.

    Mara Bar-Serapion

    Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian, but other than that nothing is known of his life. All we possess today are fragments of a letter he was writing to his son from prison, one of which says the following:

    "What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burying Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given."

    The second and third criteria both come into play here. First, it should be noted that the dating of this letter is very uncertain. Even the earliest estimates place it around 70 CE, over 40 years after Jesus' death, while some historians have dated it well into the third century. Secondly, and far more importantly, the letter does not even mention Jesus by name - it only refers to a "wise king", and does not mention any specific deeds or sayings of this individual. It could be referring to any of the messianic pretenders of the first century, or someone else entirely unknown to us. There is no way to tell. In fact, it seems less likely that Bar-Serapion meant Jesus than any other would-be messiah, since Jesus was killed by the Romans, not by the Jews. The fact that he does not even name this "wise king", whereas he does name Socrates and Pythagoras, suggests that Bar-Serapion knew almost nothing about him. Therefore, as confirmation of the historicity of Jesus, his testimony is without merit.

    Lucian of Samosata

    Born around 125 CE, Lucian of Samosata was not a historian, but a satirist who wrote dialogues ridiculing Greek philosophy and mythology. Some apologists cite a brief passage of his:

    "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day - the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.... You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."

    Taken at face value, Lucian's testimony would seem to support the idea that such a person as Jesus Christ actually existed. However, the third question comes into play here - when did he write? Given that this passage was not written until the mid-second century at the earliest, it cannot possibly provide any direct evidence for the historicity of Jesus - Lucian must be getting his facts second-hand, from other sources. But what sources did he use? Since he does not say, we cannot know for certain. However, it could well be that he used as his source one of the other historians listed here; he may even be repeating stories he heard from contemporary Christians. Again, he does not say what his sources were, so we cannot know; all we can know is that Lucian's writing provides no independent confirmation for Jesus' existence.

    The Jewish Talmud

    A compendium of Jewish oral law and rabbinical commentary still used by Orthodox Jews today to complement the Torah, the Talmud was entirely oral until it was codified and written down somewhere around 200 CE. It contains a few scattered references to Jesus, one of which is reproduced below:

    "On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover."

    The problem with the Talmud is this - it is not an objective history, but a polemic. It is obvious that the above verse is not a description of something that actually happened; rather, it is a Jewish retort to the New Testament accusation that the trial and execution of Jesus took place secretly and in haste. Theological biases render historical accounts unreliable, and this is just as true for the Jews who were answering Christian accusations as for the Christians who were making them. By the time the Talmud was compiled, centuries after Jesus' alleged death and after the Jewish War which caused vast destruction in Jerusalem and scattered the Jewish people to the winds, third-century rabbis would have been in no position to be able to refute the very existence of Jesus (not to mention that they also lacked the exegetical techniques that would have allowed them to even suspect such a possibility). It would have been much easier to grant his existence and then slant the stories about him to favor their side of the argument rather than the Christians', and this is exactly what happened.

    Furthermore, the Talmud is without value as a historical account because it dramatically contradicts the Christian version of events, and even contradicts itself in numerous places, when speaking about Jesus. Note that the above verse says he was hanged, not crucified. There are others that say he died by stoning, not at Calvary, but at Lydda, and not by the Romans, but by the Jews. Some Talmudic verses say Jesus was the son of a Roman soldier, others say he was a magician. One mention of Jesus places his life at the time of the Maccabean kings, around 100 BCE, while another says his parents were contemporaries of a second-century rabbi. Such fragmented and inconsistent accounts show that the Talmud cannot possibly be accurate history; if it were describing true events, it would be impossible for it to contradict itself. This, combined with its late writing date, makes it even weaker than the other accounts as evidence of Jesus' existence.

    Thallus

    The true name of the historian we now call Thallus is in fact not known. Nothing written by Thallus has survived to this day; the only reason we know anything about him is that he is mentioned in the writings of others. In the ninth century CE, a Christian named George Syncellus quoted an early third-century Christian named Julius Africanus, who in turn referenced the work of another man who wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean sometime between 50 and 100 CE. The true name of this man is unclear, as the manuscript is damaged and a letter is missing, but "Thallus" seems to be the most likely spelling. Neither any of his original works nor any of the original works of Africanus survive, and a fragment of third-hand hearsay stretching across eight centuries is about as weak and uncompelling as any evidence could possibly be. Nevertheless, if Syncellus and in turn Africanus are to be believed, Thallus' history mentioned the three-hour darkness at the time of Jesus' crucifixion. (No direct quotes from Thallus are known.)

    As previously stated, this evidence is so ridiculously weak and circumstantial that it could be justifiably dismissed without going any farther. Third-hand hearsay is not compelling proof of a worldwide darkness that everyone should have noticed. Furthermore, Thallus himself did not even necessarily say it was anything out of the ordinary. Syncellus quotes Africanus as saying this:

    "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away the darkness as an eclipse of the sun - unreasonably, as it seems to me."

    Passover is around a full moon, and it is physically impossible for a solar eclipse to occur during a full moon, much less to last for three hours, so Africanus would be right if that was what Thallus said - but we do not know what Thallus said; he is not quoted directly. Astronomers have calculated that a solar eclipse did occur in November of 29 CE. Is it not possible that Thallus was recording this, nothing more, and that the link to the gospel story was made by Africanus who mistakenly thought it was an attempt to explain away a mysterious three-hour darkness? And of course, this is assuming that Africanus accurately referenced Thallus, and that Syncellus accurately referenced both of them. None of the links in this long chain of assumptions can be substantiated, and thus there is no good reason to accept Thallus as any corroboration of the gospel account.

    Phlegon

    As we approach the end of the list, we encounter Phlegon of Tralles, a writer who lived sometime around 140 CE. Like Thallus, he is typically cited as a witness to the miraculous darkness around the time of the crucifixion; also like Thallus, his major works, the Chronicles and the Olympiads, have been lost, and the only way we know anything they said is through references made to them by later Christian commentators, such as Origen, Eusebius and Julius Africanus. All of them, as previously mentioned, reference Phlegon in support of the darkness. For example, Julius Africanus says the following:

    "In fact, let it be so. Let the idea that this happened seize and carry away the multitude, and let the cosmic prodigy be counted as an eclipse of the sun according to its appearance. Phlegon reports that in the time of Tiberius Caesar, during the full moon, a full eclipse of the sun happened, from the sixth hour until the ninth. Clearly this is our eclipse!"

    And Eusebius, the only one to quote Phlegon verbatim, has this to say:

    "In fact, Phlegon, too, a distinguished reckoner of Olympiads, wrote more on these events in his 13th book, saying this: 'Now, in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad [32 CE], a great eclipse of the sun occurred at the sixth hour that excelled every other before it, turning the day into such darkness of night that the stars could be seen in heaven, and the earth moved in Bithynia, toppling many buildings in the city of Nicaea.'"

    Of course, considerations of the third criterion intervene - Phlegon was, by all accounts, far too late to have witnessed any of these things personally. He cannot provide independent attestation of the darkness.

    However, there is a far more serious consideration of the first criterion, one that bears directly on Phlegon's credibility as a historian. He was not a Christian as far as we know, so there are no grounds to accuse him of inventing the story to support his own beliefs. However, it seems that Phlegon was particularly fond of fantastic and miraculous stories, regardless of their origin, and endorsed as fact many things that are impossible. His book On Marvels contains stories about things such as living centaurs, ghosts, men giving birth, a thousand-year-old Greek prophetess, oracles spoken by a corpse on a battlefield, and the animated, decapitated head of the Roman general Publius, which continued to speak even after his body was devoured by a great red wolf.

    By the time Phlegon wrote, in the mid- to late second century, Christian mythology about the crucifixion would have become widely spread. It is highly likely that Phlegon, never averse to fantastic stories, picked up on these tales and uncritically repeated them. A writer so plainly unreliable, and in any case known to us only through hearsay by Christians who might well have put their own spin on what he wrote, cannot be regarded as useful historical testimony.

    Quote Originally Posted by magic32 View Post
    DID YOU CHANGE SIDES PSYCH, YOUR ATTITUDE IN THIS THREAD IS DECISIVELY ANTI-GOD, UNLIKE MY THREAD.
    Yes, I did. I had mentioned I was in a state of confusion during that thread. I went searching and found answers, but they didn't support any existence in God or Jesus the Christ. I am not anti-God, I merely don't care. It is not worth the mental punishment that comes with being a "true believer" when I see no evidence for believing.

    This is it for me in this thread, I don't care to continue these types of arguments. No one is open minded enough to ever think differently for one second, lest they question their faith. Everyone is too scared they just might change so they just ignore the stuff on the sides and put their blinders on.
    Last edited by Psychotron; 05-25-2008 at 06:57 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotron View Post
    You cited a lot, but only two even date close to the supposed existence of Jesus. The others are 100 or more years after his time. Just like the gospels, they shouldn't be considered of any historical importance for knowing the truth.

    I still can't believe you even mention Josephus, almost all scholars believe the entry in his writings regarding the Messiah Jesus was a later interpolation.







    Yes, I did. I had mentioned I was in a state of confusion during that thread. I went searching and found answers, but they didn't support any existence in God or Jesus the Christ. I am not anti-God, I merely don't care. It is not worth the mental punishment that comes with being a "true believer" when I see no evidence for believing.

    This is it for me in this thread, I don't care to continue these types of arguments. No one is open minded enough to ever think differently for one second, lest they question their faith. Everyone is too scared they just might change so they just ignore the stuff on the sides and put their blinders on.

    psychotron, it really doesn't matter what one alleged authority or expert says about another.. what gives one opinion more credit than another? you can find an answer for either side by "alleged experts".... that doesn't mean anything...

    Let me explain some more about this and what you said in your last paragraph... if you look for reasons to not believe they are there... if you look for reasons to believe they are there too...

    Here is the question I have for you and any.... what answers do you have? I can sit all day long and discredit a belief, but without having one yourself that provides answers... so what??? If you don't have any answers and all is about how wrong things are, what did you accomplish for yourself??

    You need to search for answers... that is the real difference... search for answers and meaning and you will find an entirely different outcome... you say you looked openly? did you look for hypocracy? it is all there to be seen, but when you seek for answers for your questions in life it is when you find meaning.

    I want answers too... not just skepticism... I think there is more to it than us just going back and forth on a computer... I have said it before, you start having trials and everything you know and think lifes about comes crumbling down in your world all your security lost... I guarantee you start asking for more meaining...

    so, to all who discredit the bible with some smart response, how about following up with some answers and meaning to our existence.... until then you are just narrow and skeptic...which is easy and simple minded... the exact thing you say you are not...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotron View Post
    You cited a lot, but only two even date close to the supposed existence of Jesus. The others are 100 or more years after his time. Just like the gospels, they shouldn't be considered of any historical importance for knowing the truth. Yes, I did. I had mentioned I was in a state of confusion during that thread. I went searching and found answers, but they didn't support any existence in God or Jesus the Christ.

    THIS IS TRUE AND SADLY, IT APPEARS (AND THIS IS ONLY EMPIRICAL) THAT THE MENTION, AFFILIATION, OR WRITING OF THIS THEN PERCEIVED FALSE MESSIAH WAS UNLAWFUL AT THE TIME. BUT NEVERTHELESS, ANYONE WHO WOULD DISBELIEVE THE VERY EXISTENCE OF JESUS AND HIS MANY MIRACLES IS INDEED A MOST DECEIVED PERSON…HOW I ASK COULD TIME ITSELF HAVE BEEN MEASURED BY THE BIRTH AND DEATH OF ONE WHO DIDN’T EVEN EXIST?

    I am not anti-God, I merely don't care. It is not worth the mental punishment that comes with being a "true believer" when I see no evidence for believing.

    IT IS A PARADOX. FIRSTLY YOU ARE SIMPLY PARAPHRASING WORDS SPOKEN BY HIM LONG AGO:

    • Mat 5:10
      Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    • Mat 5:12
      Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
    • Jhn 15:20
      Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

    SECONDLY THE EVIDENCE IS ALL AROUND US. I KNOW I’M SOUNDING LIKE MORPHEOUS AGAIN BUT APPROPRIATELY SO, BECAUSE THE MATRIX IS A PSEUDONYM FOR SATAN’S WORLD SYSTEM (HIS BLINDERS AS YOU PUT IT) THUS ONE CAN SUBSTITUTE "EVIDENCE" FOR "MATRIX".

    MORPHEUS
    The Evidence is everywhere, it's all
    around us, here even in this room.
    You can see it out your window or on
    your television. You feel it when
    you go to work, or go to church or
    pay your taxes. It is the world
    that has been pulled over your eyes
    to blind you from the truth.

    NEO
    What truth?

    MORPHEUS
    That you are a slave, Neo. Like
    everyone else, you were born into
    bondage, kept inside a prison that
    you cannot smell, taste, or touch.
    A prison for your mind.

    The LEATHER CREAKS as he leans back.

    MORPHEUS
    Unfortunately, no one can be told
    what the Evidence is. You have to see/ [experience via the Holy Spirit]
    it for yourself.


    This is it for me in this thread, I don't care to continue these types of arguments. No one is open minded enough to ever think differently for one second, lest they question their faith. Everyone is too scared they just might change so they just ignore the stuff on the sides and put their blinders on.

    SORRY TO HEAR THAT, I TRY TO BE AS OBJECTIVE WITH EVIDENCE AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE REGARDLESS OF THE TOPIC…MILK THISTLE, GYNO, DNP, OR JESUS.

    WHEN YOU AGAIN QUESTION YOUR FAITH, IN THE LIGHT OF PERSECUTION OR DOUBT, SIMPLY LOOK AT THE MARVELS AROUND YOU (A TREE OR ECOSYSTEM, THE VASTNESS OF SPACE OR THE COMPLEXITIES OF A SINGLE CELL) AND ALSO QUESTION THEIR EXISTENCE BECAUSE NOTHING + NOTHING NEVER EQUALS SOMETHING REGARDLESS OF TIME AND CHANCE AS EXHIBITED IN THE MOST POPULAR OPPOSING VIEWS TO CREATIONISM.

    SO LONG OLD FRIEND.

    ----------------

    Quote Originally Posted by rockinred View Post
    Magic,
    The best way to describe what many refer hell to is in the book of Revelations when the book prophecies about the end... now, the term "lake of fire" and "everlasting fire/destruction"..
    A VERY NICE EXPANSION ON THE VERSES I CITED. BUT AS NOTED SUCH DESCRIPTIONS ARE NOT LIMITED TO REVELATION.
    Last edited by magic32; 05-25-2008 at 10:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockinred View Post
    so, to all who discredit the bible with some smart response, how about following up with some answers and meaning to our existence.... until then you are just narrow and skeptic...which is easy and simple minded... the exact thing you say you are not...
    Truth is, there isn't any meaning to our existance other than the meaning we attach to it.

    Christians give a Christian meaning to life, Buddists give Buddist meaning to life, Muslims give a Muslim meaning to life, etc etc etc.

    That's all there is, mon petite. If the simple fact of the matter isn't palatable, if you need more comfort than the stark reality of the existance of matter, space, time, and energy give you, retreat into the invented fables of whichever religion makes you happy.


    I guess you're "skeptical" to what seems reasonable to me . . . But, until someone comes along and proves their religion correct and all other religions wrong, I'll be skeptical to what the Bible says.
    Last edited by Tock; 05-26-2008 at 08:36 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock View Post
    Truth is, there isn't any meaning to our existance other than the meaning we attach to it.

    Christians give a Christian meaning to life, Buddists give Buddist meaning to life, Muslims give a Muslim meaning to life, etc etc etc.

    That's all there is, mon petite. If the simple fact of the matter isn't palatable, if you need more comfort than the stark reality of the existance of matter, space, time, and energy give you, retreat into the invented fables of whichever religion makes you happy.


    I guess you take the "skeptic" attitude to what seems reasonable to me . . . But, until someone comes along and proves their religion correct and all other religions wrong, I'll be skeptical to what the Bible says.
    That's it???....the ability to love, feel emotions, speak, communicate like we are doing now, happy, sad, joy, give, recieve, peace, etc... is all just made up by chance??? right and wrong??? all just made up by some dirt that by chance became us? Just pick any one of those words and meditate and think real hard on the meaning and tell me it is all just chance and luck...those words have deep meaning and explain things.... look around you, nothing can compare, no animal, no living species.... No way by chance.

    when you stated cosmos, matter, space, time.... those are not as complex in meaning as the words I stated above... but they are words that WE created to describe actual things....

    no way.. I am not going to buy into *********? I was taught that and believed it in school for many years until I went through many real life trials and tribulations that caused changes in my life... I've seen quite a few third world countries, famine, death in my household, war.... love and life.... all to powerful to chalk off as fantasy filled thoughts made up for our own pleasure or arguments only to perish when we return to the dust or cosmos.

    I will agree with you that there are many gray areas in all religions that are causes for concern, but I am not going to go back to the religion or belief system of *********... that was when I didn't want to look deep or the beginning of my journey. I only now accept the fact that I don't understand everything and understand what God's plan is for every being and other religion... the fact for me is I don't need to know... I need to know about myself and my own salvation.

    The truth is you post in everyone of these threads because you are looking too....just like we all are... the comment that you stated above just said "i don't know, but you don't either".... the truth is, you might be closer to the kingdom of god than many others and closer than you think... Now just open your heart and look.... forget doctrines and differences, who cares about that.
    Last edited by rockinred; 05-26-2008 at 08:57 PM.

  7. #7
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    Its all about faith

    Either got it or you don't

    I don't think its right to say, "My religion is correct, ev1else is wrong and going to hell, blah blah blah"

    To completely close and block out all the other religions in the world is fine. But to constantly say your right and write it in stone is foolish and selfish.

    On the other hand, there could possibly be some God of some form. Who knows...

    But these jesus freaks lol, already have their minds made up. Its their way, or the highway(hell)


    Lets just all agree to disagree. Cuz like Pyschotron said, your not going to open your minds. Its the fear. religion makes people feel comfortable.

    Like I said a million times. Truth is what you want it to be. Whose to say whose right and whose wrong?

    So lets just move along.

    btw, i was christian for 19 years, THEN opened my eyes. So don't sit there and say us non-christians need to open our eyes. In reality its you, who sits there with that fear, thus using religion to make yourself feel comfortable with life

    I'll leave it with this:

    There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?


    We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.

    A universe with a God would look quite different from a universe without one. A physics, a biology where there is a God is bound to look different. So the most basic claims of religion are scientific. Religion is a scientific theory.

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    bigsexy,

    wait, why do we have to move along now? it is just a thread to share points of view... why put closure?... there is no hostility going on?

    I respect yours and any others perspective...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockinred View Post
    That's it???....the ability to love, feel emotions, speak, communicate like we are doing now, happy, sad, joy, give, recieve, peace, etc... is all just made up by chance???
    Dunno if it was by chance or not. But just because your mind is accustomed to the notion of intelligent beings creating things, doesn't mean that's the only way we could have got here.

    I'm hardly omniscient, and lots of people are smarter than I am. But I do know this -- the Bible is not to be taken literally, it is chuck full of tales, fables, and fiction, and its stories of creation and gods and afterlife is not the sort of thing I take seriously.

    How we got here is how we got here. I probably won't be around when scientists finally piece together all the bits of info and figure out how it all happened. So, I won't worry about it, and I won't embrace fictions that make me feel better.







    right and wrong???
    What's Right and Wrong frequently depends on your viewpoint. To the cow about to be made into hamburger, eating meat is wrong. To the folks at a summer barbeque, it's a wonderful thing. Obeying the Commandment to "Keep the sabbath holy" is fine for slaves to orthodoxy, but not so good for businessmen. A vote for Obama would be right for America according to some folks, and terribly wrong for others. Under what circumstances is it right or wrong for a beggar to steal a loaf of bread to feed his starving 3 year old daughter?




    The truth is you post in everyone of these threads because you are looking too....just like we all are..
    I've been looking for quite a while. I've blundered up a few dead ends, and am happy to share the benefit of my experience. But anymore, I'm of the opinion that all these religions are just someone else's fictions, other folk's attempts to make sense out of stuff that doesn't make sense. And their explanations don't make sense to me. Nothing does. So, I've made peace with the idea that I'm better off embracing a big question mark than a bloody cross with a bunch of nonsensical rules. You, however, haven't made the same life journey I have, so your conclusions will be different, and you're welcome to think whatever you would like to think.






    Now just open your heart and look....
    Nope. I've been down that "just open your heart and etc" bit before. What that actually means is, "just open yourself uncritically to this set of ideas . . ." and to do that is to embrace them as conclusions before actually putting them under critical examination. And that's a big mistake . . . Something I'm not gonna do again.

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    Tock,

    I might be different.. but when I said open your heart... I didn't mean start reading anything or conforming to any set of beliefs or religious system....

    I wasn't fancy for the bible or anything like that either... I use to read a lot of psychology, philosophy, and cosmos books.... I have always been a little deep...

    anyhow, my journey to becoming a believer from a nonbeliver started when I was in Haiti one night very cold, lonely, sad, and in a lot of pain.... I was by myself and would say from the inside of my inners... "if there is a God out there then why not just show me?" "I like good and if there really is a God then I will be with you, just show me"....I would also think that if there was a bad side, which i didn't think there was, in my heart I knew that I didn't want to be a part of it especially if there was a difference that i could see and choose... and I said it to myself and meant it with all my inside (heart). I said i just want to know because I don't understand things and religion was just silliness to me.. I never thought about the bible or koran or any other specific religion... I just wanted to know for sure the real truth..

    so anyhow nothing happened on that night or a few others that was similar, but it was later that both the evil one showed his presence and the God did too... The study of the bible came later and it was more of a confirmation of beliefs that I never knew about but was shown to me when God showed me...

    I have only shared that with a few... I know what I am saying can be written off as fanciful thoughts, but in reality I am a changed person in ways I didn't know was possible... I use to be a very violent ill tempered person amongst many other things... I am learning and struggling day in and day out.

    The whole thing about opening your heart on what I said is a lot different then saying read a book such as the bible and just accepting it or anything else... that is the difference between intellectually approaching and just doing it from your heart....

    Peace!

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    Quote Originally Posted by goose4 View Post
    For you magic,,,,,,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?V=yknwxfc820c

    THIS REPLY MAY CATCH YOU OFF GUARD GOOSE, BUT THERE IS INDEED BIBLICAL VALIDITY FOR EVERYTHING IN THE ABOVE LINK, AND BECAUSE OF THAT (ALTHOUGH MY WORDS WOULD BE FAR LESS NEGATIVE), I AGREE WITH HIM!

    THAT SAID, HE'S SPEAKING OF IS WHAT WE TRADITIONALLY CALL "EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE" SO WHETHER IN A HOME, MOVIE, CORPORATION, OR UNIVERSE THE PARENTS, SCREENWRITER, C.O., OR SUPREME BEING MAKES THE RULES. CONSEQUENTLY, THE OMNIPOTENT GOD OF THE BIBLE BEING ALL OF THE ABOVE IS WELL WITHIN HIS RIGHTS TO MAKE FORNICATION, LYING, STEALING, HOMOSEXUALITY, ETC., SINS. HOWEVER, IT SHOULD BE CLEAR THAT BECAUSE ONE DISAGREES OR DOES NOT UNDERSTAND A THING, PERSON OR DECISION DOESN'T MAKE IT WRONG...AN EXPANSION OF WHICH (AS ANY MILITARY OFFICER WILL TELL YOU) IS:

    "COMPREHENSION IS NOT A PREREQUISITE OF OBEDIENCE."

    ESPECIALLY WHEN THAT BOSS HAS THE AUTHORITY TO RULE WITH IMPUNITY, AND OR EXACT PUNISHMENT.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?V=6mmskxxetcg
    I FOUND THE SECOND LINK FAR MORE INTERESTING, AND THIS QUESTION IS ONE THAT EVERY BELIEVER OF ANYTHING, ESPECIALLY RELIGION SHOULD ASK HIMSELF. NOW CONJECTURALLY SPEAKING, YOU MAY BE ASKING ME THE POSITED QUESTION AND IF SO, I COULD EASILY METAPHYSICALLY ANSWER BY SAYING THAT MY INNER BEING/CONSCIENCE/SUPER EGO/SPIRIT AGREES WITH THIS BUT THAT WOULD BE FAR TOO SUBJECTIVE FOR VIGOROUS DEBATE. INSTEAD, EVEN THOUGH I WASN’T THERE, I DO IN FACT BELIEVE THE BIBLE AND THE EXTRA-BIBLICAL REPORTS OF CHRIST’S EXISTENCE, BEYOND TERRESTRIAL (DIVINE) TEACHINGS AND UNDERSTANDING, NUMEROUS INHUMAN (DEITY-LIKE) MIRACLES, CONSPICUOUSLY UNWORTHY OF DEATH CRUCIFIXION, RESURRECTION, AND ASCENSION. AND BECAUSE OF MY INDIVIDUAL BELIEF, PARTLY DUE TO UPBRINGING, BUT MOSTLY TO THE SHEER IMPOSSIBILITY OF A MORE PROBABLE EXPLANATION (AS INDICATED BY EARLIER BY ROCKINRED) OF THE WORLD/UNIVERSE AND THEIR RESPECTIVE GRANDEUR.


    ----------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tock View Post
    What's Right and Wrong frequently depends on your viewpoint.
    THIS IS IN FACT THE CUSP OF THE MATTER.

    HOWEVER, UNLIKE OUR ESTEEMED AUTHOR ABOVE, I HOLD A DIFFERING OPINION. WHAT’S RIGHT AND WRONG IS SOLELY DETERMINED BY THE GREATEST AUTHORITY AND THEREBY VARIES ALONG WITH AUTHORITY UNTIL A HIGHEST IS REACHED. VERY RIGHT IN INDIA, MAY BE VERY WRONG IN AMERICA AND VICE VERSA. IT MAY BE RIGHT IN YOUR EYES TO RACE (EXCEEDING THE SPEED LIMIT) TO A MOVIE THEATER WHEN LATE, HOWEVER ROAD CONSTRAINTS BY WHICH SPEED LIMITS ARE DETERMINED, THE COP WITH THE RADAR GUN, AND MOREOVER STATE OF RESIDENCY HOLD THE AUTHORITY IN THE MATTER WHICH MAKES IT WRONG EVEN THOUGH THIS VERY SAME SCENARIO WOULD BE BOTH PARDONED AND ESCORTED IN CASES OF BIRTHING LABOR. SO THE QUESTION BECOMES…”WHAT OR WHO HOLDS THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY WITH REGARD TO THE MORE EXISTENTIAL QUESTIONS OF MORALITY & ETHICS?” THE AUTHOR WOULD HAVE US BELIEVE THAT THE INDIVIDUAL DOES, THEREBY CREATING A MOST CHAOTIC SOCIETY. NOTE: PEOPLE WHO ROUTINELY BOTH ASSERT AND ASCRIBE TO THIS PHILOSOPHY ARE TYPICALLY INCARCERATED BY THEIR SOCIETY. AH PUNISHMENT, WE MIGHT THEN CONCLUDE THE MATTER WITH THE SIMPLE QUESTION, “DOES THERE EXIST A HIGHEST MORAL AUTHORITY THAT CAN PUNISH US AFTER DEATH FOR OUR ACTIONS OR LACK THEREOF (BELIEF IN CHRIST) IN LIFE? HOW YOU ANSWER THIS ULTIMATELY DETERMINES YOUR BEHAVIOR, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY TO MOST YOUR FREEDOMS...WHICH AFTERALL IS WHAT'S REALLY AT STAKE IS IT NOT?

    IF I DO BELIEVE OR EVEN SEEK TO, THEN I'LL OWE ALLEGIANCE AND SUBSEQUENTLY SERVITUDE, BUT IF I DON'T THEN I'M FREE TO DO AS I PLEASE SO WHY BOTHER? AN AVER THE MOST HONEST OF ATHEISTS WILL ADMIT, AND RIGHTFULLY SO ACCEPT FOR THE ETERNITY QUESTION, WHICH THEY THEN NECESSARILY DISMISS.
    Master Pai Mei of the White Lotus Clan



    My motto: SAFETY & RESPECT (for drugs and others).

    I AM NOT A SOURCE, I DO NOT GIVE OUT SOURCES, OR PROVIDE SOURCE CHECKS.
    I DO NOT SUPPORT ANY UGL's OR ANY ORGANIZATION DEALING WITH THE DISTRIBUTION OF ILLEGAL NARCOTICS/SUBSTANCES!


    Difference between Drugs & Poisons
    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=317700


    Half-lives explained
    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...inal+half+life


    DNP like Chemotherapy, can be a useful poison, but both are still POISONS
    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=306144


    BE CAREFUL!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockinred View Post
    so, to all who discredit the bible with some smart response, how about following up with some answers and meaning to our existence.... until then you are just narrow and skeptic...which is easy and simple minded... the exact thing you say you are not...
    I dont believe Oden created the universe, does that mean I have to present a alternative reason to the meaning of my existance independent of Oden, otherwise Im simple minded?

    For atheist there is no more reason to believe in god than there is to believe in oden or a invisible pinc unicorn at the dark side of the moon. No offence meant, but thats just the way I see it.

    Without proof there is no reason to believe, with proof belife isnt needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by rockinred View Post
    That's it???....the ability to love, feel emotions, speak, communicate like we are doing now, happy, sad, joy, give, recieve, peace, etc... is all just made up by chance??? right and wrong??? all just made up by some dirt that by chance became us? Just pick any one of those words and meditate and think real hard on the meaning and tell me it is all just chance and luck...those words have deep meaning and explain things.... look around you, nothing can compare, no animal, no living species.... No way by chance.
    Emotions are just chemical and electric interactions within our brain which we can even manipulate by toying around with EM fields and chemicals. There are *********ary explanations to why we became emotional animals and they all seem reasonable. It seems like most of our emotions exist in one way or another among most pack animals aswell. Love when a wolf mother takes care of its cub, curiosity when the cub searches through its sourounding, fear when a mouse is caught by a fox, joy when a dog sees his owner after a long day alone etc. Animals communicate in different forms, humans have just taken it a step further.

    Humans, emotions, animals etc are not by chance, its by natural selection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kärnfysikern View Post
    I dont believe Oden created the universe, does that mean I have to present a alternative reason to the meaning of my existance independent of Oden, otherwise Im simple minded?

    For atheist there is no more reason to believe in god than there is to believe in oden or a invisible pinc unicorn at the dark side of the moon. No offence meant, but thats just the way I see it.

    Without proof there is no reason to believe, with proof belife isnt needed.



    Emotions are just chemical and electric interactions within our brain which we can even manipulate by toying around with EM fields and chemicals. There are *********ary explanations to why we became emotional animals and they all seem reasonable. It seems like most of our emotions exist in one way or another among most pack animals aswell. Love when a wolf mother takes care of its cub, curiosity when the cub searches through its sourounding, fear when a mouse is caught by a fox, joy when a dog sees his owner after a long day alone etc. Animals communicate in different forms, humans have just taken it a step further.

    Humans, emotions, animals etc are not by chance, its by natural selection.

    Hey what's up Kärnfysikern, I was wondering if you were going to jump in here.... couldn't resist could ya? Me neither I tried to remain neutral...

    When I said for peopel to chime in.... I meant to at least give there perspective of the complex matter of human origin... The reason I say that is because, if someone says... "i don't know what I believe, but I do know that what you believe is wrong", to me it is just simple minded to an extent... it means that one is actually afraid to make stance or choice on a very tough decision.

    So we have discussed ev o lution on a previous thread, but I will have to say that it is mixed with fancy realities and ideologies too. The fact that our brain processes chemicals that cause us to react doesn't explain a whole lot other than that is what is going on inside... I might not dispute that that doesn't even occur... what I am saying is that it is the way our body and brain was created..

    we also know many other things such as siimple things like hot air rises, etc.. that means we are learning how the creator made things to me... but even then we only tap the surface... think about the response on chemical balances in the brain... sounds cool, but doesn't really mean a whole lot unless we interpret it to mean more.

    This might be a weak analogy, but I am not a mechanic right... well I can see and understand how a motor works... doesn't mean I can make one or stuff like that... It means I understand a little about the laws for that particular thing work or intended to work in order to function.

    If a person is an athiest and then decides to embrace evo lution.. that is fine, but as we have discussed before, at least understand that a lot of what they believe is not quite as free minded as they might think... Ev o lution, is the same as most religious beliefs systems in the world... it has constantly changed, it has radicalists, and is based on believing what cannot be seen or proved too... I just think the followers accepted into this group is little more open ended where they will take anyone including people who have no idea about it, into their belief system.. think aobut it... how many professed athiest claim they believe in evol ution and have no clue what it even teaches??

    anyhow, that is what i meant when I said give some answers to our existence... if the answer is I believe in ev o lution, then I say...ok!... but, if it is i don't know anything, I just know your belief system is a joke...then I still say ok, but where is the objective thought process? and where does the real joke lie?
    Last edited by rockinred; 05-27-2008 at 07:24 AM.

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    Magic,

    The best way to describe what many refer hell to is in the book of Revelations when the book prophecies about the end... now, the term "lake of fire" and "everlasting fire/destruction" is what all who loved death and not life and followed the evil ways of the world with Satan and his followers from heaven will be cast into... It states somewhere along the lines of... Hades (hell), the sea, the dragon (satan),etc.. and all are cast into this lake of fire which is eternal destruction/damnation... then it goes on to say that the smoke is seen and can be smelled as a sweet scent to all in God's Kingdom for eternity... these are spoken in messages and parables... it is not literal smoke and it is not a literal lake of fire.. etc..

    All of God's creation is awaiting the eternal judgement....The only place that is stated to have undergone God's judgement like this is Sodom and Gomorrah (read Jude), that place was destroyed and never to be rebuilt or seen again... it states that place underweant the judicial judgement of everlasting fire.... now it is still not literaly burning.. but, whenever you mention the term all think about the lawlessness and what happened... that is the smoke from everlasting fire that will and is even now being smelt this day and age...

    The way I understand is that the Sheol, Hades, Hell, all mean the same in the different languages, meaning DEATH, the grave when you die... yet, there is still a chance to be brought back to life.... so when he undergoes the judgment of everlasting fire, that means he has announced his final judgment of things and it is over no chance for coming back... that is why it states that Hell/hades is cast into the lake of fire... in other words DEATH as we know it will be no more... just a memory... you can't throw hell into hell... if you see what I am saying...

    The burning is symbolic of the memory... all the way things are and have been without God these years and Satan as the ruler will be detroyed forever like Sodom and Gomorrah, only as a remberence of the way things were without God as the ruler.... (hence the smoke), and also why it is a sweet smell to God's peoople for eternity... the smoke and burning is not literal anymore then Sodoms smoke is not literal (no smoke except a memory of smoke)...no one will ever look back and say maybe it will be better to live after the old ways.... that is the sweet smell... if literal no one would like the way smoke smells...

    That is also why God has continued to allow things to go so that he may be just with his actions.... allowing satan to rule and people to disobey, innocent to die, etc... because one day, he will bring his eternal judgment and set it straight... Hell, Hades, Sheol, are all the state of the dead until that time... then the eternal judgment is also known as Lake of fire, Gehenna, and at that time there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth...rulers and people saying "why" "I lived good", etc...

    the only other place referred to in the Bible about a waiting place is that place called Tartarus (greek term), that is used to describe a place where certain spirit lives are kept until the appointed time of judgment... this is the place that the demons did not want to go when Jesus was casting the demons out while he was on earth... this is not a place that any human was talked about going to... the only place that any human goes to is the grave, hell. this tartarus (spirits awaiting final judgment) will also be cast into the lake of fire in the end with everything else....

    I could of quoted more, but you know the scriptures and can understand what I am talking about... also, I wasn't suppose to post again..
    Last edited by rockinred; 05-25-2008 at 07:40 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by magic32 View Post

    WHICH HAPPENS TO BE THE AFOREMENTIONED BURNING AND TORTURING FOREVER AND LET US NOT FORGET WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH…


    What's your take on the burning forever and ever?...Usally a "real" fire consume's until their is nothing left (except maybe some ashes)...With the scripture you mentioned, how in this sense will it burn forever and ever?...I'm thiking it's not literal...


    Quote Originally Posted by magic32 View Post

    HEY THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH BUDDY .


    This is what I perceive a sinner to get, the above mentioned scripture...Death (second death)...Or rather, everlasting destruction which fire represents...What's your take?



    NJ
    Last edited by nojoke; 05-25-2008 at 12:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by magic32 View Post
    OKAY, ALL THAT MAY BE TRUE AS WELL, BUT SOMEHOW YOU MISSED “HELL” THE PLACE OF OUTER DARKNESS, ORIGINALLY CREATED AS A PUNISHMENT AND TORTURE FOR FALLEN ANGELS, SO HERE:

    • Mat 25:41
      Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    • Mat 8:12
      But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    • Mat 22:13
      Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    • Mat 24:51
      And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    • Mat 25:30
      And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    • Luk 13:28
      There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.


    Huh . . . you cite all those Bible verses as if they had any validity.

    As I've shown before (several times, actually), the New Testament is based on the Old Testament, and the OT is a bunch of BS.

    Sheesh . . . do you need me to show how the OT is a bunch of BS -- AGAIN?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by magic32 View Post
    -----------------------------



    AH, EXTRA-BIBLICAL WRITINGS!
    DON’T YOU RECALL THIS BEING COVERED?


    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ighlight=bible
    (post #268)


    DID YOU CHANGE SIDES PSYCH, YOUR ATTITUDE IN THIS THREAD IS DECISIVELY ANTI-GOD, UNLIKE MY THREAD.

    ----------------------



    IF NOT, IT IS CERTAINLY A GOOD ONE.

    NARK,
    BE SURE TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE ABOVE CITED LINK, I THINK YOU’LL FIND IT PARTICULARLY INTERESTING.

    ------------------


    Thanks.

    -CNS

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