CEE help

[Swifto]

Point taken, i have decided upon some research that i will use mono. But now the real question is what brand should i go with and should i be taking more than 10g ed? (5g pre-w/o & 5g post w/o)

It depends on bodyweight. What are your stats?

I use around 5-10g/ED and dont really cycle it either. Just stay "on".

Dont use anything apart from CreaPure IMHO. Its the best most refined form of Monohydrate.

If you get stomach discomfort, lower your dose.

Take it pre and post workout at 5g (or more if needed) with BCAA's, Whey Iso, Lecicuine, Glutamine + Dextrose.

Thats what I do.

[Flex-Appeal]

It depends on bodyweight. What are your stats?

I use around 5-10g/ED and dont really cycle it either. Just stay "on".

Dont use anything apart from CreaPure IMHO. Its the best most refined form of Monohydrate.

If you get stomach discomfort, lower your dose.

Take it pre and post workout at 5g (or more if needed) with BCAA's, Whey Iso, Lecicuine, Glutamine + Dextrose.

Thats what I do.

Ok, im 6 foot 214

[Swifto]

Ok, im 6 foot 214

5g pre and 5g post IMHO.

[BrokenBricks]

I understand the confusion. But the first study does not compare whole protein supplementation to BCAA supplementation. The second does and clearly states that while BCAA is beneficial, it has no benefit ABOVE whole protein supplementation.

So the question is not "Do BCAA help near the time of workout?", the question is "Are BCAA superior to whole protien near the time of a workout?" or "Does adding BCAA to whole protein have a synergistic effect?"

Whey is converted to free aminos extremely quickly. It is possible, but not at all obvious or even expected, that the 30 minutes it takes to absorb the aminos from whole protein in the form of whey is suboptimal and that there is a benefit from *slightly* quicker absorption.

Per the study you quote.

"Ingestion of whole or intact protein sources (e.g., protein powders, meal-replacements) has been shown to cause similar improvements in protein balance after resistance exercise when compared to free amino acid supplements."


You lose a lot of credibility if you take the anecdotes of body builders who are simultaneously changing a dozen or more workout and diet variables, who are highly prone to placebo effects, over clinical trials. Review articles become outdated, clinical trials do not.

I'll read that link a bit later.

[Swifto]

I understand the confusion. But the first study does not compare whole protein supplementation to BCAA supplementation. The second does and clearly states that while BCAA is beneficial, it has no benefit ABOVE whole protein supplementation.

So the question is not "Do BCAA help near the time of workout?", the question is "Are BCAA superior to whole protien near the time of a workout?" or "Does adding BCAA to whole protein have a synergistic effect?"

Whey is converted to free aminos extremely quickly. It is possible, but not at all obvious or even expected, that the 30 minutes it takes to absorb the aminos from whole protein in the form of whey is suboptimal and that there is a benefit from *slightly* quicker absorption.

Per the study you quote.

"Ingestion of whole or intact protein sources (e.g., protein powders, meal-replacements) has been shown to cause similar improvements in protein balance after resistance exercise when compared to free amino acid supplements."


You lose a lot of credibility if you take the anecdotes of body builders who are simultaneously changing a dozen or more workout and diet variables, who are highly prone to placebo effects, over clinical trials. Review articles become outdated, clinical trials do not.

I'll read that link a bit later.

I lose credibility? Really?

The first study is confirming BCAA SUPPLEMENTATION aids in protein synthesis and recovery. So what if it doesnt compare it to whole food BCAA intake. WTF?

Seriously, stop getting caught up in bullshit studies done on few individuals in clinical trials/studies. Sometimes there not right.

I'll take real world results over clinical studies anyday. I used to think studies were the be all and end all, there not fortunately.

I'm beginning to think you either dont know what your talking about, or your splitting hairs for arguments sake. Probably both.

BCAA's, Dex, Creatine and Gutamine pre and post workout, then a solid meal 15-30mins after training.

Your disagreeing with something tried and tested for decades and your beginning to make yourself look even more foolish than you did with your first post, telling the poster to throw the supps in the trash.

I will not even waste my time any further with such stupid statements.

You've probably never even tried it.

[BrokenBricks]

The first study is confirming BCAA SUPPLEMENTATION aids in protein synthesis and recovery. So what if it doesnt compare it to whole food BCAA intake. WTF?

First, it a review article. It doesn't "show" anything. Clinical trials "show". Review articles are the opinion of the writer, assumed to be a well informed. Technical point.

To answer the question, it seems pretty straight forward that paying more for a supplement that has no benefit over a far cheaper supplement is irrational. If you deny it has no benefit over whole protein, as the writer claims, that is one thing. But if you accept that hypothesis for the sake of argument, as you do in the quote..well it seems entirely obvious why it matters that BCAA has no benefit over, for instance, a whey shake.

Seriously, stop getting caught up in bullshit studies done on few individuals in clinical trials/studies. Sometimes there not right.

Studies can be wrong, no question. But the concept of doing clinical trials which are well designed, use real measurable criterion for gauging effect, and which are done with a sample size large enough to remove any reasonable chance of the results are due to chance....that concept is the foundation of modern scientific progress. The most important lesson for any researcher is that YOU CAN BE FOOLED. The placebo effect and many biases inherent to human thinking must be consciously and carefully eliminated. If not the result is not reliable.

Anecdotal evidence is quite nearly the WORST and least reliable form of evidence there is. Do you know how many millions people spend on homeopathic remedies each year? All of these people are taking placebos and many many of the people will claim that they work. You are not immune, I am not immune.

The reason you don't feel that you can rely on journal articles *may* be because you don't know how to critically evaluate them. That doesn't mean you are not very bright, you very well may be. But it is a skill that is not natural and must be taught and practiced. Some studies are totally worthless because of methodological errors and unconscious biases in the collection and interpretation of data. But saying "well I felt like it worked" just doesn't cut it.

[Swifto]

First, it a review article. It doesn't "show" anything. Clinical trials "show". Review articles are the opinion of the writer, assumed to be a well informed. Technical point.

To answer the question, it seems pretty straight forward that paying more for a supplement that has no benefit over a far cheaper supplement is irrational. If you deny it has no benefit over whole protein, as the writer claims, that is one thing. But if you accept that hypothesis for the sake of argument, as you do in the quote..well it seems entirely obvious why it matters that BCAA has no benefit over, for instance, a whey shake.




Studies can be wrong, no question. But the concept of doing clinical trials which are well designed, use real measurable criterion for gauging effect, and which are done with a sample size large enough to remove any reasonable chance of the results are due to chance....that concept is the foundation of modern scientific progress. The most important lesson for any researcher is that YOU CAN BE FOOLED. The placebo effect and many biases inherent to human thinking must be consciously and carefully eliminated. If not the result is not reliable.

Anecdotal evidence is quite nearly the WORST and least reliable form of evidence there is. Do you know how many millions people spend on homeopathic remedies each year? All of these people are taking placebos and many many of the people will claim that they work. You are not immune, I am not immune.

The reason you don't feel that you can rely on journal articles *may* be because you don't know how to critically evaluate them. That doesn't mean you are not very bright, you very well may be. But it is a skill that is not natural and must be taught and practiced. Some studies are totally worthless because of methodological errors and unconscious biases in the collection and interpretation of data. But saying "well I felt like it worked" just doesn't cut it.

I'm not getting into a bullshit debate over whether BCAA's work for supplementation of not. I have better uses for my time, you obviously do not.

My recovery is better when I take BCAA's, glutamine and creatine. Now, dont go off stating my diet was not identical and my training was not the same, as I've tried supplementing BCAA etc...And then I havent for around 3-4 weeks with the same training program and very similar diet.

Like I said; I'll take a bodybuilders 20+ years of experience that trains other bodybuilders at national level AND competes at national level himself over a few clinical studies and a trainee doctor.

Sorry, no offence here, but were going to have to agree to disagree on this topic doc.

Just out of intrest, what supplements do you take pre/post workout and what works (IYO) and what doesnt?

Tribulas, Lj100? Fadogia Agrestis? For boosting endogenous T?