Testing Amplify 02

[jimmyinkedup]

Everything you eat has sodium in it. Everything you eat has phosphorus in it. It is the sixth most common element in your body! You could say everything you said above about calcium. You just don't get it. You have a stunning lack of sophistication in your understanding of the body and its chemistry. It leads you to make erroneous claims about the safety of a given chemical. And I am sorry, but the *reason* you don't get it is becuase of inadequate education. That is not your fault anymore than it is my fault I don't know how to rebuild an engine from the ground up. I just don't go around arguing with mechanics about my opinions on engine maintenance, which is where you go wrong.

Have I not made it clear that Sodium phosphate is simply some sodium and some phosphate? Which of those do you have a problem with? Do you want a list of the foods which you need to stop eating to avoid those elements? It is all foods.....Does sodium kill people? You bet...does that mean it is bad for you in a certain reasonable amount? Not a bit. Can you *fit* an unreasonable amount into a few pills a day? Hardly.

You never answered this:


Why not do this : Take sodium phosphate - u pick the dose say 10 grams a day - with '> tren and ibuprofen daily for oh say 75 days - then get some bloodwork and lets see how those kidneys are doing? You wont - because you never post any firsthand experience # 1 and you wouldn't be so stupid as to do it unnecessarily #2 Just like taking it in a supplement daily with the potential for regular use with other kidney stressing , commonly used in the '> bodybuilding community, compounds. Not an unlikely scenario here....
I dont think this is a prudent supp for many reasons - this being one.

or this:


this supp has this ingredient ...in an amount unknown to you ...but you assume its safe ...b/c of the # of caps. But it is associated with the aforementioned disorders....the demographic here is very likely to be taking other risk increasing compounds .Do you , as a doctor, really think its smart to defend this ingredient ....with unknown risk factors ...in a demographic likely to be using one or more substances known to increase these risks?
See for me its easy - its associated with the disorder ....its in a supp u take daily ...why take it? at any dose


Where you go wrong is you try to argue opinions - ...you see i read info on an ingredient - i assessed it - i formed and stated an opinion - based on facts i read. Re read this thread. You then sarcastically question my knowledge of chemistry - which i ignore and ask for your input. You then proceed to explain why i deserve to be talked down to ..blah blah blah. I have my opinion - in my mind it is justified. Answer my above questions honestly and on some level we agree i believe - i cant imagine you saying yeah ill take it with an nsaid and tren. Or yeah its a good thing to take a supp with this ingredient and other potential associated risk factors(unknown to you). Or you know what maybe you think its fine ...and thats ok - but taking the thread to personal attacks etc ...you went there - its stupid - and YOUR peers wrote the articles i read....the FDA - who we both know well - warned not only against high dosage but low dose long term use - "potential build up of phosphate crystals leading to possible renal failure. "

Thats my opinion - you havent changed it.

[BrokenBricks]

You never answered this:


Why not do this : Take sodium phosphate - u pick the dose say 10 grams a day - with '> tren and ibuprofen daily for oh say 75 days - then get some bloodwork and lets see how those kidneys are doing? You wont - because you never post any firsthand experience # 1 and you wouldn't be so stupid as to do it unnecessarily #2 Just like taking it in a supplement daily with the potential for regular use with other kidney stressing , commonly used in the '> bodybuilding community, compounds. Not an unlikely scenario here....
I dont think this is a prudent supp for many reasons - this being one.

or this:


this supp has this ingredient ...in an amount unknown to you ...but you assume its safe ...b/c of the # of caps. But it is associated with the aforementioned disorders....the demographic here is very likely to be taking other risk increasing compounds .Do you , as a doctor, really think its smart to defend this ingredient ....with unknown risk factors ...in a demographic likely to be using one or more substances known to increase these risks?
See for me its easy - its associated with the disorder ....its in a supp u take daily ...why take it? at any dose


Where you go wrong is you try to argue opinions - ...you see i read info on an ingredient - i assessed it - i formed and stated an opinion - based on facts i read. Re read this thread. You then sarcastically question my knowledge of chemistry - which i ignore and ask for your input. You then proceed to explain why i deserve to be talked down to ..blah blah blah. I have my opinion - in my mind it is justified. Answer my above questions honestly and on some level we agree i believe - i cant imagine you saying yeah ill take it with an nsaid and tren. Or yeah its a good thing to take a supp with this ingredient and other potential associated risk factors(unknown to you). Or you know what maybe you think its fine ...and thats ok - but taking the thread to personal attacks etc ...you went there - its stupid - and YOUR peers wrote the articles i read....the FDA - who we both know well - warned not only against high dosage but low dose long term use - "potential build up of phosphate crystals leading to possible renal failure. "

Thats my opinion - you havent changed it.

I am not going to take 10 GRAMS of sodium phosphate a day for 75 days for about a dozen reasons, none of which help your point. Who would eat TEN GRAMS of salt everyday on top of their normal diet? It is a retarded question. You cannot just arbitrarily select a ridiculous amount of a substance and claim that harm at one dosage bears some linear relevance at any dosage. A standard large pill contains about one third to a half a gram of ingredients. Those pills have a dozen ingredients. Even if I granted you that they contain 100mg each of sodium phosphate you would need to take 600 of them per day to reach the amount in the bowel prep.

You had to ask three times because it was a silly enough question I was going to let it slide. Let me ask you, would you eat 300 eggs in one sitting? Maybe your stomach would burst! Therefore why would you want to ingest this potentially deadly substance in any dosage?

[Kaioken]

I am not going to take 10 GRAMS of sodium phosphate a day for 75 days for about a dozen reasons, none of which help your point. Who would eat TEN GRAMS of salt everyday on top of their normal diet? It is a retarded question. You cannot just arbitrarily select a ridiculous amount of a substance and claim that harm at one dosage bears some linear relevance at any dosage. A standard large pill contains about one third to a half a gram of ingredients. Those pills have a dozen ingredients. Even if I granted you that they contain 100mg each of sodium phosphate you would need to take 600 of them per day to reach the amount in the bowel prep.

You had to ask three times because it was a silly enough question I was going to let it slide. Let me ask you, would you eat 300 eggs in one sitting? Maybe your stomach would burst! Therefore why would you want to ingest this potentially deadly substance in any dosage?

EXACTLY the addition is in an amount that is VERY minimal

The Ingredient work all together in Amplify 02 Synergistically and piggy back off of each other and Amplify each other.

THUS you get a desired effect WITHOUT overloading on any one thing.


Its a "stacked" product

[Kaioken]

http://www.kammsite.com/cat%20hissing.jpg

[jimmyinkedup]

I am not going to take 10 GRAMS of sodium phosphate a day for 75 days for about a dozen reasons, none of which help your point. Who would eat TEN GRAMS of salt everyday on top of their normal diet? It is a retarded question. You cannot just arbitrarily select a ridiculous amount of a substance and claim that harm at one dosage bears some linear relevance at any dosage. A standard large pill contains about one third to a half a gram of ingredients. Those pills have a dozen ingredients. Even if I granted you that they contain 100mg each of sodium phosphate you would need to take 600 of them per day to reach the amount in the bowel prep.

You had to ask three times because it was a silly enough question I was going to let it slide. Let me ask you, would you eat 300 eggs in one sitting? Maybe your stomach would burst! Therefore why would you want to ingest this potentially deadly substance in any dosage?

You failed toaddress these points:
i reiterate:

this supp has this ingredient ...in an amount unknown to you ...but you assume its safe ...b/c of the # of caps. But it is associated with the aforementioned disorders....the demographic here is very likely to be taking other risk increasing compounds .Do you , as a doctor, really think its smart to defend this ingredient ....with unknown risk factors ...in a demographic likely to be using one or more substances known to increase these risks?
See for me its easy - its associated with the disorder ....its in a supp u take daily ...why take it? at any dose.


Where you go wrong is you try to argue opinions - ...you see i read info on an ingredient - i assessed it - i formed and stated an opinion - based on facts i read. Re read this thread. You then sarcastically question my knowledge of chemistry - which i ignore and ask for your input. You then proceed to explain why i deserve to be talked down to ..blah blah blah. I have my opinion - in my mind it is justified. Answer my above questions honestly and on some level we agree i believe - i cant imagine you saying yeah ill take it with an nsaid and /or'> tren. Or yeah its a good thing to take a supp with this ingredient and other potential associated risk factors(unknown to you). Or you know what maybe you think its fine ...and thats ok - but taking the thread to personal attacks etc ...you went there - its stupid - and YOUR peers (acutually not your peers - specialists - urologists , etc...) wrote the articles i read....the FDA - who we both know well - warned not only against high dosage but low dose long term use - "potential build up of phosphate crystals leading to possible renal failure. "

Why did you fail to address the above?
You claim its a salt and a phospahte blah blah blah - the body removes it all the time. OK so take 2 teaspoons of table salt in h20 daily in addition to your normal diet.....intelligent - no ...healthy -no.
I guess you know the kidney so well ALL the experts that wrote the articles and studies i cited are wrong. The FDA investigated / regulated OTC products containing this very ingredient for the dangers i mentioned..... and they must be wrong too.

Given all the above info - the studies - the fda findings -the risk with low dose long term usage (documented by the fda btw) you STILL want to argue this point. You must be right - they are all wrong...and then to boot you call me an idiot.

People can read and decide for themselves.
I wont take the supplement. Thats my opinion - you havent changed it.

Oh but wait that wasnt your goal anyway was it - you entered the thread spewing insults at me from the start.
Its easier to do that than to read the links i posted - acknowledge the truth in the bold statements above - and actually admit you dont know everything.
It's easier stating everyone else including urologists , specialists and the FDA are wrong ...and you ....a resident (no disrespect - just pointing itout for comparison purposes) are correct.
I find that hard to believe - even for you.

[BrokenBricks]

You failed toaddress these points:
i reiterate:

this supp has this ingredient ...in an amount unknown to you ...but you assume its safe ...b/c of the # of caps. But it is associated with the aforementioned disorders....the demographic here is very likely to be taking other risk increasing compounds .Do you , as a doctor, really think its smart to defend this ingredient ....with unknown risk factors ...in a demographic likely to be using one or more substances known to increase these risks?
See for me its easy - its associated with the disorder ....its in a supp u take daily ...why take it? at any dose.


Where you go wrong is you try to argue opinions - ...you see i read info on an ingredient - i assessed it - i formed and stated an opinion - based on facts i read. Re read this thread. You then sarcastically question my knowledge of chemistry - which i ignore and ask for your input. You then proceed to explain why i deserve to be talked down to ..blah blah blah. I have my opinion - in my mind it is justified. Answer my above questions honestly and on some level we agree i believe - i cant imagine you saying yeah ill take it with an nsaid and /or'> tren. Or yeah its a good thing to take a supp with this ingredient and other potential associated risk factors(unknown to you). Or you know what maybe you think its fine ...and thats ok - but taking the thread to personal attacks etc ...you went there - its stupid - and YOUR peers (acutually not your peers - specialists - urologists , etc...) wrote the articles i read....the FDA - who we both know well - warned not only against high dosage but low dose long term use - "potential build up of phosphate crystals leading to possible renal failure. "

Why did you fail to address the above?
You claim its a salt and a phospahte blah blah blah - the body removes it all the time. OK so take 2 teaspoons of table salt in h20 daily in addition to your normal diet.....intelligent - no ...healthy -no.
I guess you know the kidney so well ALL the experts that wrote the articles and studies i cited are wrong. The FDA investigated / regulated OTC products containing this very ingredient for the dangers i mentioned..... and they must be wrong too.

Given all the above info - the studies - the fda findings -the risk with low dose long term usage (documented by the fda btw) you STILL want to argue this point. You must be right - they are all wrong...and then to boot you call me an idiot.

People can read and decide for themselves.
I wont take the supplement. Thats my opinion - you havent changed it.

Oh but wait that wasnt your goal anyway was it - you entered the thread spewing insults at me from the start.
Its easier to do that than to read the links i posted - acknowledge the truth in the bold statements above - and actually admit you dont know everything.
It's easier stating everyone else including urologists , specialists and the FDA are wrong ...and you ....a resident (no disrespect - just pointing itout for comparison purposes) are correct.
I find that hard to believe - even for you.

The studies are not wrong. They are correct. *YOU* are wrong because you cannot, apparently, read a study, evaluate its content and apply it to a related but different question. The would be no shame in this as it is a skill that is cultivated over many years. That you demand to be taken seriously simultaneously is the shame. You fail to grasp one of the most fundamental concepts in biochemistry. Effects do *not* scale linearly with dosage. Calcium too low? You die. Calcium to high? You die. We are not talking about cyanide or arsenic here. We are not talking about Sarin or scorpion venom. You argue as if you understood basic electrolyte biochemistry and clinical reality as one would understand poisoning. They are not remotely the same. Electrolyte homeostasis is simply more nuanced than that and in this arena I think my college degree in biochemisty and medical education *does* give the grounds to tell you "No, you are making a mistake in your interpretation".

Do you need Sanjay Gupta to tell you you are wrong before you will back off this nonsense? Should I send you over to a medical forum and have two dozen people with over a decade of medical education tell you exactly what I am telling you now? I admit, I am not great about giving people a face saving way out of an argument with me. Sorry. But you are wrong all the same and you are going to have to eat your vegetables and just take your licks here.

[jimmyinkedup]

The studies are not wrong. They are correct. *YOU* are wrong because you cannot, apparently, read a study, evaluate its content and apply it to a related but different question. The would be no shame in this as it is a skill that is cultivated over many years. That you demand to be taken seriously simultaneously is the shame. You fail to grasp one of the most fundamental concepts in biochemistry. Effects do *not* scale linearly with dosage. Calcium too low? You die. Calcium to high? You die. We are not talking about cyanide or arsenic here. We are not talking about Sarin or scorpion venom. You argue as if you understood basic electrolyte biochemistry and clinical reality as one would understand poisoning. They are not remotely the same. Electrolyte homeostasis is simply more nuanced than that and in this arena I think my college degree in biochemisty and medical education *does* give the grounds to tell you "No, you are making a mistake in your interpretation".

Do you need Sanjay Gupta to tell you you are wrong before you will back off this nonsense? Should I send you over to a medical forum and have two dozen people with over a decade of medical education tell you exactly what I am telling you now? I admit, I am not great about giving people a face saving way out of an argument with me. Sorry. But you are wrong all the same and you are going to have to eat your vegetables and just take your licks here.

*sigh* again i ask :

1- Do you , as a doctor, really think its smart to defend this ingredient ....with risk factors ...in a demographic likely to be using one or more substances known to increase these risks?

2- Why does the fda warn low dose long term use may result in possible renal failure due to phosphate crystal build up - and why did they require 2 OTC preparations to adjust formulas and place warnings on their products?

3 - Do you honestly think its prudent to take this daily in a supplement?

4- If you felt i merely misinterpreted the studies - maybe you could have just said that - instead of starting in hurling insults etc .... That may have been more mature - and productive - i gave you the opportunity - openly ignoring your first insult and inviting your input. You simply replied with another insult ... surprising ?? - not considering the source - no.

5- As far as my chemistry knowledge - well im not sure you would want to compare ....physiology yes i would hope you know more - chemistry - well lets just say you and i both better hope not next time u write out a script....

6- I dont need to save face at all - i expressed my opinion - i stick by it.

7-My mind hasn't changed - i wont take this supp - for several reasons - this is just one more reason to add to the list...

Respond if you wish - i am done with my interaction with you in this thread. Hopefully , if you amend your ways as pointed out , we can have productive, informative exchanges in the future. I will no longer lower myself to trading insults with the likes of you. I enjoy this board far too much.

[BrokenBricks]

*sigh* again i ask :

1- Do you , as a doctor, really think its smart to defend this ingredient ....with risk factors ...in a demographic likely to be using one or more substances known to increase these risks?

Jesus Christ. The whole post of the last 3-4 of my post is that this cannot be reduced to recommending or avoiding a chemical. It is not *either* good or bad. DOSE MATTERS. Whatever amount is in those pills MUST, simply by virtue of its low mass, be irrelevant. This is explicit in my previous posts. I am glad you are throwing in the towel become I really don't think I could stand hearing you ask the same question a dozen times.

2- Why does the fda warn low dose long term use may result in possible renal failure due to phosphate crystal build up - and why did they require 2 OTC preparations to adjust formulas and place warnings on their products?

First, where did it say that? I did not read that. Does it use the phrase "Low dose". If so that is a statement that must be put into context because "low dose" is not very specific. As I said, we all eat tons of sodium and phosphate every day. Yet this is not a widespread disease by any stretch.

3 - Do you honestly think its prudent to take this daily in a supplement?

Yes. In the amounts that would be in those pills. It is not prudent to take the instant laxative dose repeatedly. I would hope you could tell the difference.

4- If you felt i merely misinterpreted the studies - maybe you could have just said that - instead of starting in hurling insults etc .... That may have been more mature - and productive - i gave you the opportunity - openly ignoring your first insult and inviting your input. You simply replied with another insult ... surprising ?? - not considering the source - no.

And I would have politely pointed out the errors you were making, if you had not displayed a pattern of antagonism towards me and, worse, an eagerness to "give your opinion" on questions which have little understanding. You need to be put in your place so you take pause next time you feel like making statements about things you do not understand.

5- As far as my chemistry knowledge - well im not sure you would want to compare ....physiology yes i would hope you know more - chemistry - well lets just say you and i both better hope not next time u write out a script....

Yeah, I think I am more than comfortable asserting my understanding of chemical fundamentals is stronger than yours.

6- I dont need to save face at all - i expressed my opinion - i stick by it.

Here is what you cannot do in science. You cannot take a objective fact based question and hide your ass saying "Well its just my opinion". Try submitting a research paper in any hard science field and when your peers challenge you tuck your head between your legs and claim that science is all a matter of opinion.

Respond if you wish - i am done with my interaction with you in this thread. Hopefully , if you amend your ways as pointed out , we can have productive, informative exchanges in the future. I will no longer lower myself to trading insults with the likes of you. I enjoy this board far too much.

Cute. You lob ad hominem attacks for a dozen posts and when I hit back and you get your nose a bit bloodied now you claim the high ground! Ha.