Gyno Started

[Juice Authority]

bolds

EDIT: I would like to add that i forgot that we were talking about a cycle with a 19-Nor. I did not take that into account in my previous statements.

"i agree for the most part, except running the adex. Its pointless imo. Nolvadex reducess the effectiveness type II AIs. Not to mention, if you are running the nolvadex, its going block the estrogen from binding to the receptors in the breast. Of course doing this, it would be advisable to run an ai in your pct to control the high levels of estrogen that remain circulating from your cycle. However, if you did want to lower estrogen during the cycle, aromasin would be my choice, since its effectiveness is not reduced by tamox."

And this is where opinions seem to differ. I have heard it postulated that Nolva reduces the effectiveness of AIs and also the other way around so it is the chicken or the egg? And if so, how significant is it really? Liver protectants interfere with androgens in the body but their inhibitory effect is infinitesimal at best. Nolva is a pretty weak anti-e. I think most will agree on that. The point of running Nolva is to block estrogen from binding to the receptor site but at same time you want to reduce estrogen levels in the body and let's face it, Nolva doesn't really get the job done in that respect. If gyno is starting to form that also means circulating estrogen levels are probably too high.

I won't address aromasin because I can't speak to it from personal experience. I can read profiles and spout out info but unless I have direct personal experience (something that should matter) with a compound I'll defer to others.

The obvious surefire solution would be a letro/caber or letro/prami combo but there is another side to that coin too. Killing off all the estrogen in your body is not the ideal solution either. Estrogen plays a big role in libido. If your estrogen is too low then you will have no libido. When people take letro it kills there libido because it reduces estrogen levels by 99% and renders your dick useless.

However, and as you pointed out, Nolva can and will exacerbate the situation if it's progesterone related BUT if it's caught early enough you can quickly determine if it's estrogen related or progesterone related. For starters, the gyno will worsen instead of subsiding and you can quickly change course with other remedies.

Bear in mind, not everyone responds well to prolactin reducing drugs like Prami or caber. Prami for example has some really bizarre sides. I took .5mg of Prami in the am and nearly feel asleep at work. I took it in the pm and was wide awake all night. Go figure. It's like the drug knows what time of day it is.

[WARMachine]

"i agree for the most part, except running the adex. Its pointless imo. Nolvadex reducess the effectiveness type II AIs. Not to mention, if you are running the nolvadex, its going block the estrogen from binding to the receptors in the breast. Of course doing this, it would be advisable to run an ai in your pct to control the high levels of estrogen that remain circulating from your cycle. However, if you did want to lower estrogen during the cycle, aromasin would be my choice, since its effectiveness is not reduced by tamox."

And this is where opinions seem to differ. I have heard it postulated that Nolva reduces the effectiveness of AIs and also the other way around so it is the chicken or the egg? 100% Positive its Nolva. I can provide articles to support that as well. And if so, how significant is it really? Roughly 40%.

Liver protectants interfere with androgens in the body but their inhibitory effect is infinitesimal at best. Nolva is a pretty weak anti-e. I think most will agree on that. You bet. If people think Nolva should be used as an AI, they dont know wtf they are doing. As it does not inhibit circulating estrogen. It does exactly as you explain below.

The point of running Nolva is to block estrogen from binding to the receptor site but at same time you want to reduce estrogen levels in the body and let's face it, Nolva doesn't really get the job done in that respect. If gyno is starting to form that also means circulating estrogen levels are probably too high. Yep.

I won't address aromasin because I can't speak to it from personal experience. I can read profiles and spout out info but unless I have direct personal experience (something that should matter) with a compound I'll defer to others. You should look into its use. Its by far my favorite AI.

The obvious surefire solution would be a letro/caber or letro/prami combo but there is another side to that coin too. Doesnt make sense to me here. Letro will already control progesterone issues, making Caber overkill.

Killing off all the estrogen in your body is not the ideal solution either. I agree, if anyone has read my sticky, youll realize my distaste for the use of Letro. Estrogen plays a big role in libido. If your estrogen is too low then you will have no libido. When people take letro it kills there libido because it reduces estrogen levels by 99% and renders your dick useless. One of MANY reasons why i dislike it.

However, and as you pointed out, Nolva can and will exacerbate the situation if it's progesterone related BUT if it's caught early enough you can quickly determine if it's estrogen related or progesterone related. For starters, the gyno will worsen instead of subsiding and you can quickly change course with other remedies. True.

Bear in mind, not everyone responds well to prolactin reducing drugs like Prami or caber. Prami for example has some really bizarre sides. I took .5mg of Prami in the am and nearly feel asleep at work. I took it in the pm and was wide awake all night. Go figure. It's like the drug knows what time of day it is. Yeah i hear ya there. Eveyone is different.

Were pretty much in agreement id say.

WTF is going on here?

[Ryan121]

War-

Please just tell me what to take here...I have tamox, aromasin, a-dex, and caber...I really need ya here
what to take
how much
how long

[Juice Authority]

Were pretty much in agreement id say.

WTF is going on here?

'The obvious surefire solution would be a letro/caber or letro/prami combo but there is another side to that coin too. Doesnt make sense to me here. Letro will already control progesterone issues, making Caber overkill. '

Ok, let's address this because there seems to be some conflicting information that may prove useful in discussing openly. While estrogen and progesterone are indirectly related an AI (letro) won't reduce already high prolactin levels. That's where Prami/caber/bromo comes into play unless I'm missing something here.

I do believe you can indirectly control progesterone levels with an AI BEFORE prolactin levels build up. Lower estrogen typically = lower prolactin levels. However, if the user has not been running an AI and both his estrogen and progesteron levels are high then Letro won't help. Letro kills off estrogen; it doesn't reduce prolactin levels. Now if I've got this wrong feel free to correct me but that is my understanding.

[WARMachine]

'The obvious surefire solution would be a letro/caber or letro/prami combo but there is another side to that coin too. Doesnt make sense to me here. Letro will already control progesterone issues, making Caber overkill. '

Ok, let's address this because there seems to be some conflicting information that may prove useful in discussing openly. While estrogen and progesterone are indirectly related an AI (letro) won't reduce already high prolactin levels. I didnt say they did. Im afraid i didnt fully understand what you wrote. That's where Prami/caber/bromo comes into play unless I'm missing something here.

I do believe you can indirectly control progesterone levels with an AI BEFORE prolactin levels build up. Lower estrogen typically = lower prolactin levels. However, if the user has not been running an AI and both his estrogen and progesteron levels are high then Letro won't help. Letro kills off estrogen; it doesn't reduce prolactin levels. Now if I've got this wrong feel free to correct me but that is my understanding.

The use of Letro helps the PgR by reducing concentrations of the PgR and estrogen receptors and lowering estrogen levels. Tren and deca do not aromatize into prog but act on the prog receptor. Deca binds at the rate of 20% and tren is 60% so using letro will give the deca/tren less prog receptors to bind too. Thats what i ment when i said Letro will help control progesterone issues.

Now i will say, the best way to prevent or decrease prolactin/progestrone induced gyno is by taking an anti-prolatin such as Caber or Bromo.

But like i mentioned, Letrozole does have anti-progestinic (not prolactin) properties.

Again though, this is mostly from my research into this topic. For all i know, i may be inaccruate. Unfortunately, im not the most knowledgeable member concerning this issue, however, i feel i have a basic understanding.

Ill PM someone i know will have some better insight for us. Hopefully he'll get back to me soon.

[Swifto]

The use of Letro helps the PgR by reducing concentrations of the PgR and estrogen receptors and lowering estrogen levels. Tren and deca do not aromatize into prog but act on the prog receptor. Deca binds at the rate of 20% and tren is 60% so using letro will give the deca/tren less prog receptors to bind too. Thats what i ment when i said Letro will help control progesterone issues.

Now i will say, the best way to prevent or decrease prolactin/progestrone induced gyno is by taking an anti-prolatin such as Caber or Bromo.

But like i mentioned, Letrozole does have anti-progestinic (not prolactin) properties.

Again though, this is mostly from my research into this topic. For all i know, i may be inaccruate. Unfortunately, im not the most knowledgeable member concerning this issue, however, i feel i have a basic understanding.

Ill PM someone i know will have some better insight for us. Hopefully he'll get back to me soon.

Hello hello...What have we here...



Lower E and PgR should also lower.

Tamox upregulates the PgR.

Reduce PgR by using RU-486/Mifepristone.

There are studies that show a decrease in the PgR from Letro. But it has no direct affinity for the PGR. But I'm not completely happy with it IMHO. It may be from a reduction in estrogen and the study is on cancer patients with breast tissue growth, not normal, healthy individuals. Thats a big difference IMHO. The patients arnt on steroids, they arnt exogenously administering steroids, that also changes things. There also not using progestins. I'm not happy with it.

Tamox lowers the effectiveness of type II AI's. Its roghly 40%.

There arnt any ACTUAL studies confirming it. But I've spoken to a doctor that states his patients experience increased levels of PRL from Testosterone. So taking a dopamine agonist is a good idea IMHO. Although I'm still not 100%...

PRL will also increase with HGH and IGF-1 use.

Vit-B6 is a good way of reducing PRL. But too much can damage your CNS and it will reduce androgen gene transcription. So there's a flip side.

Few points, but most have been said.

I think the prblem is estrogen. Not PgR or PRL. Estorgen is the hormone that causes ductal and glandular growth of the breast. Some argue PgR makes it worse, it may, but in primates studies show it doesnt.

[Juice Authority]

Hello hello...What have we here...



Lower E and PgR should also lower.

Tamox upregulates the PgR.

Reduce PgR by using RU-486/Mifepristone.

There are studies that show a decrease in the PgR from Letro. But it has no direct affinity for the PGR. But I'm not completely happy with it IMHO. It may be from a reduction in estrogen and the study is on cancer patients with breast tissue growth, not normal, healthy individuals. Thats a big difference IMHO. The patients arnt on steroids, they arnt exogenously administering steroids, that also changes things. There also not using progestins. I'm not happy with it.

Tamox lowers the effectiveness of type II AI's. Its roghly 40%.

There arnt any ACTUAL studies confirming it. But I've spoken to a doctor that states his patients experience increased levels of PRL from Testosterone. So taking a dopamine agonist is a good idea IMHO. Although I'm still not 100%...

PRL will also increase with HGH and IGF-1 use.

Vit-B6 is a good way of reducing PRL. But too much can damage your CNS and it will reduce androgen gene transcription. So there's a flip side.

Few points, but most have been said.

I think the prblem is estrogen. Not PgR or PRL. Estorgen is the hormone that causes ductal and glandular growth of the breast. Some argue PgR makes it worse, it may, but in primates studies show it doesnt.

Good stuff. I agree on estrogen being the culprit here.