Senate to vote on NATIONAL Right-To-Carry Reciprocity, Call Your Senator!

[vpchill]

I dont agree with this Bill.. Too many people are not mature enough to handle the responsibility of carrying weapons across state lines.
If we want the Wild west back then be my guest. All each person would be doing is trying to buy more guns than their neighbor. Guns dont kill people, People kill people. Rather than try to arm the entire country and every half bit fool, How about we focus on the illegal gun trade and get those who should not have weapons dealt with and the sellers made to justify their ignorance for selling 45 guns to a college student.

You should have to jump through hoops to own a gun in my opinion. Too many people who have no brain own guns legally and illegally.

[Iron_Pig]

I dont agree with this Bill.. Too many people are not mature enough to handle the responsibility of carrying weapons across state lines.
If we want the Wild west back then be my guest. All each person would be doing is trying to buy more guns than their neighbor. Guns dont kill people, People kill people. Rather than try to arm the entire country and every half bit fool, How about we focus on the illegal gun trade and get those who should not have weapons dealt with and the sellers made to justify their ignorance for selling 45 guns to a college student.

You should have to jump through hoops to own a gun in my opinion. Too many people who have no brain own guns legally and illegally.

Giddyup cowboy cant wait for the gun fights in the streets

[SMCengineer]

A few to things to note; the bill was already voted on in the Senate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFqsV...layer_embedded. It failed by two votes. While I fully agree with the intentions of the bill, I'm not sure I support it. It seems to be contradictory in nature. It strengthens the second amendment while simultaneously weakening the tenth. As much as I despise a politician dictating who can and can't own a firearm, I despise with even more contempt increasing federal control over states. I think this would open the door for increased federal gun control nation wide.

[thegodfather]

A few to things to note; the bill was already voted on in the Senate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFqsV...layer_embedded. It failed by two votes. While I fully agree with the intentions of the bill, I'm not sure I support it. It seems to be contradictory in nature. It strengthens the second amendment while simultaneously weakening the tenth. As much as I despise a politician dictating who can and can't own a firearm, I despise with even more contempt increasing federal control over states. I think this would open the door for increased federal gun control nation wide.

That is only one side of the coin. On the other hand, you can view it as a civil liberties issue. The 2nd amendment can be incorporated onto the states via the 14th Amendment. The Bill of Rights supercedes all State laws, because once you cross state lines you do not lose your right to Freedom of Speech(1st Amendment), your right to the writ of Habeas Corpus(Article I), or your right against Unlawful Search&Seisure(4th Amendment). There is a standard, via the Bill of Rights, which every citizen of the United States is entitled to, regardless of State lines. They are in essence rights which no State can violate. Because the 2nd Amendment is in the same document as these other rights, it makes no sense then, that the 2nd Amendment should not be protected from the States like the rest of the amendments. The 14th amendment would allow the 2nd Amendment to be fully incorporated onto the states.

[SMCengineer]

That is only one side of the coin. On the other hand, you can view it as a civil liberties issue. The 2nd amendment can be incorporated onto the states via the 14th Amendment. The Bill of Rights supercedes all State laws, because once you cross state lines you do not lose your right to Freedom of Speech(1st Amendment), your right to the writ of Habeas Corpus(Article I), or your right against Unlawful Search&Seisure(4th Amendment). There is a standard, via the Bill of Rights, which every citizen of the United States is entitled to, regardless of State lines. They are in essence rights which no State can violate. Because the 2nd Amendment is in the same document as these other rights, it makes no sense then, that the 2nd Amendment should not be protected from the States like the rest of the amendments. The 14th amendment would allow the 2nd Amendment to be fully incorporated onto the states.

My own biases against the 14th amendment notwithstanding, I don't believe the Second amendment has been incorporated against every state. I also believe incorporation of the second amendment would be a double edged sword because it would vastly expand federal powers over gun control and supercede state rights.

[thegodfather]

I dont agree with this Bill.. Too many people are not mature enough to handle the responsibility of carrying weapons across state lines.
If we want the Wild west back then be my guest. All each person would be doing is trying to buy more guns than their neighbor. Guns dont kill people, People kill people. Rather than try to arm the entire country and every half bit fool, How about we focus on the illegal gun trade and get those who should not have weapons dealt with and the sellers made to justify their ignorance for selling 45 guns to a college student.

You should have to jump through hoops to own a gun in my opinion. Too many people who have no brain own guns legally and illegally.

Well that is certainly a biased, uneducated, and un researched opinion that you hold. That has continuously been an argument from the left against pro gun bills. However, the numbers do not agree with you, at all. 20 years ago only around 10 states issued conceal&carry permits, today 40 states issue them to their citizens. In every state, only around 1% of the population make the choice to obtain a conceal&carry permit, dispelling the unsubstantiated myth that "everyone will be carrying a gun."

In addition, statistically, conceal&carry permit holders are 3x less likely to commit a violent crime, than a person who does not possess a conceal&carry permit. Florida has issued the most CCW permits than any other state in the country, 1.5 million of its citizens choose to CCW, and in the time they have issued these permits, only 169 people have committed a gun crime who possess a CCW. That is less than 1%, a statistical non-point.

This bill does not give gun owners any "extra" rights. It simply would allow their Constitutionally protected right of self defense to apply in every state. Just as your 1st amendment rights to freedom of speech apply wherever you are in the country, and cannot be infringed by State laws. Just as your right against unlawful search&seizure through the 4th amendment apply wherever you are in the country.

Additionally, States which have instituted Shall Issue CCW permits, have seen violent crime rates which were ABOVE the national average fall below the national average. 99% of gun crimes are not committed by people who lawfully obtained their weapons, statistically CCW holders are among the most law abiding, most responsible citizens. While gun deaths account for a few thousand deaths per year in this country, the FBI has estimated that guns save between 1.5 - 2 million lives per year, and often without a shot having been fired.

You did hit on a key point at the end of your post, we do need to enforce the laws we already have on the books to stop guns from being owned by criminals. We do not need new laws to further regulate guns, because we don't currently enforce the ones we have now.

The argument that the Constitution was written in the 1700's is a red herring. The Constitution is a timeless document, with principles that still apply today, it is every bit as relevant today as it was then. The founders understood the need for an armed populace, a disarmed populace has no final recourse against an oppressive government. The 2nd Amendment was never instituted for "sportsmen and hunters" as President Obama seems to think. It first and foremost was the populations last resort against tyranny, and as a means of self defense. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

[vpchill]

Well that is certainly a biased, uneducated, and un researched opinion that you hold. That has continuously been an argument from the left against pro gun bills. However, the numbers do not agree with you, at all. 20 years ago only around 10 states issued conceal&carry permits, today 40 states issue them to their citizens. In every state, only around 1% of the population make the choice to obtain a conceal&carry permit, dispelling the unsubstantiated myth that "everyone will be carrying a gun."

In addition, statistically, conceal&carry permit holders are 3x less likely to commit a violent crime, than a person who does not possess a conceal&carry permit. Florida has issued the most CCW permits than any other state in the country, 1.5 million of its citizens choose to CCW, and in the time they have issued these permits, only 169 people have committed a gun crime who possess a CCW. That is less than 1%, a statistical non-point.

This bill does not give gun owners any "extra" rights. It simply would allow their Constitutionally protected right of self defense to apply in every state. Just as your 1st amendment rights to freedom of speech apply wherever you are in the country, and cannot be infringed by State laws. Just as your right against unlawful search&seizure through the 4th amendment apply wherever you are in the country.

Additionally, States which have instituted Shall Issue CCW permits, have seen violent crime rates which were ABOVE the national average fall below the national average. 99% of gun crimes are not committed by people who lawfully obtained their weapons, statistically CCW holders are among the most law abiding, most responsible citizens. While gun deaths account for a few thousand deaths per year in this country, the FBI has estimated that guns save between 1.5 - 2 million lives per year, and often without a shot having been fired.

You did hit on a key point at the end of your post, we do need to enforce the laws we already have on the books to stop guns from being owned by criminals. We do not need new laws to further regulate guns, because we don't currently enforce the ones we have now.

The argument that the Constitution was written in the 1700's is a red herring. The Constitution is a timeless document, with principles that still apply today, it is every bit as relevant today as it was then. The founders understood the need for an armed populace, a disarmed populace has no final recourse against an oppressive government. The 2nd Amendment was never instituted for "sportsmen and hunters" as President Obama seems to think. It first and foremost was the populations last resort against tyranny, and as a means of self defense. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

Here you go again insulting my intelligence and throwing your numbers from Books around. I speak from actual Knowledge. In The State of Georgia alone, where I have lived for a few years, They allow people to carry. If you have no record and are over 21 you can apply and most times approved. Get outside and put the book down. You cant learn about life from other peoples quotes. Quote me somthing from you not what you have read.
Your so smart, yet so uninformed. I have seen people carrying thier weapons legally and these are people I wouldnt trust with a butter knife let alone a gun with bullets.
Come hang with me for a day and Ill show you educated.
People like you really piss me off, You talk from books and google searches and know nothing about actual life. I can survive in any element you can, yet im 1000% sure you cannot survive in mine.
Speak from experience or dont speak at all.

[thegodfather]

Here you go again insulting my intelligence and throwing your numbers from Books around. I speak from actual Knowledge. In The State of Georgia alone, where I have lived for a few years, They allow people to carry. If you have no record and are over 21 you can apply and most times approved. Get outside and put the book down. You cant learn about life from other peoples quotes. Quote me somthing from you not what you have read.
Your so smart, yet so uninformed. I have seen people carrying thier weapons legally and these are people I wouldnt trust with a butter knife let alone a gun with bullets.
Come hang with me for a day and Ill show you educated.
People like you really piss me off, You talk from books and google searches and know nothing about actual life. I can survive in any element you can, yet im 1000% sure you cannot survive in mine.
Speak from experience or dont speak at all.

I certainly was not trying to insult your intelligence. However, you made several claims which are unsubstantiated by the available data. So, I would appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions as to my own personal experiences, I have been involved with and seen things I would not like any other person to see. However, when arguing a point, I prefer to use facts and statistics which are more or less irrefutable, than to use straw man arguments which have no quantifiable way of being measured.

When you speak from personal experience, we call these things anecdotes. They are more or less useless for the sake of argument, because there is no way to eliminate the many confounding variables which could be effecting your opinion. Statistics are more relevant when discussing national problems, because they account for regional differences.

You want an original statement from me? I concealed&carried on a daily basis when I was in college. Having that tool at my disposable should something threaten my life made me feel much safer. In fact, I almost had to draw my weapon on a person who I thought was going to attempt to rob me. So I am quite apprehensive when bleeding heart liberals want to make ME less safe, or make my FAMILY less safe, and limit MY right to defend myself and my family because their misguided opinions and fear mongering scare people into thinking an INANIMATE OBJECT like a gun is responsible for all the evil in the world.

What do these laws do? They DO NOT stop criminals from carrying guns across state lines concealed on their persons, that is why they are by definition a CRIMINAL. ALL that legislation does is prevent LAW ABIDING CITIZENS from being able to protect themselves from the criminals who break the laws. It penalizes the good guys, and rewards the bad guys. Concluding that we need more gun control is so illogical that it boggles my mind how anyone can hold this belief. Especially when the NUMBERS, which you seem unconcerned with, indicate DRASTIC decreases in violent crime in states that have instituted CONCEAL AND CARRY.

[vpchill]

I certainly was not trying to insult your intelligence. However, you made several claims which are unsubstantiated by the available data. So, I would appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions as to my own personal experiences, I have been involved with and seen things I would not like any other person to see. However, when arguing a point, I prefer to use facts and statistics which are more or less irrefutable, than to use straw man arguments which have no quantifiable way of being measured.

When you speak from personal experience, we call these things anecdotes. They are more or less useless for the sake of argument, because there is no way to eliminate the many confounding variables which could be effecting your opinion. Statistics are more relevant when discussing national problems, because they account for regional differences.

You want an original statement from me? I concealed&carried on a daily basis when I was in college. Having that tool at my disposable should something threaten my life made me feel much safer. In fact, I almost had to draw my weapon on a person who I thought was going to attempt to rob me. So I am quite apprehensive when bleeding heart liberals want to make ME less safe, or make my FAMILY less safe, and limit MY right to defend myself and my family because their misguided opinions and fear mongering scare people into thinking an INANIMATE OBJECT like a gun is responsible for all the evil in the world.

What do these laws do? They DO NOT stop criminals from carrying guns across state lines concealed on their persons, that is why they are by definition a CRIMINAL. ALL that legislation does is prevent LAW ABIDING CITIZENS from being able to protect themselves from the criminals who break the laws. It penalizes the good guys, and rewards the bad guys. Concluding that we need more gun control is so illogical that it boggles my mind how anyone can hold this belief. Especially when the NUMBERS, which you seem unconcerned with, indicate DRASTIC decreases in violent crime in states that have instituted CONCEAL AND CARRY.

Ok, Mark this down. For the 1st time I will agree with you.
yet this is my opinion so for you to shoot that down, how can I respect yours?
Now, I totally agree none of this stops the criminal element. Yet, I can deal with the fact of criminals having illegal guns (?? Allow me to explain)
I know that if John and his Homies are strapped, 9 times out of 10 they cant shoot and will only fire if threatened by local enemies or the like.
Yet if Mike smith is carrying legally and has NO training and gets scared or overreacts this can lead to irreversible damage.
I can anticipate what the criminal will do, I cannot anticipate what a legal gun owner with no gun training will do when confronted with a harsh situation.
Thats why I feel there should be more training involved for people to carry legally. The criminal (Most times) is carrying his weapon on a day by need basis given those particular circumstances.
Once again, this is my opinion.
I own NO guns. I have yet to fear another human being. Now at one point I owned many, due to my lifestyle and my surroundings. I feel more shouldbe focused on proper qualifications and training. Even cops have to train to use their weapon, why not Mike Smith the average cictizen?

[MuscleScience]

Ok, Mark this down. For the 1st time I will agree with you.
yet this is my opinion so for you to shoot that down, how can I respect yours?
Now, I totally agree none of this stops the criminal element. Yet, I can deal with the fact of criminals having illegal guns (?? Allow me to explain)
I know that if John and his Homies are strapped, 9 times out of 10 they cant shoot and will only fire if threatened by local enemies or the like.
Yet if Mike smith is carrying legally and has NO training and gets scared or overreacts this can lead to irreversible damage.
I can anticipate what the criminal will do, I cannot anticipate what a legal gun owner with no gun training will do when confronted with a harsh situation.
Thats why I feel there should be more training involved for people to carry legally. The criminal (Most times) is carrying his weapon on a day by need basis given those particular circumstances.
Once again, this is my opinion.
I own NO guns. I have yet to fear another human being. Now at one point I owned many, due to my lifestyle and my surroundings. I feel more shouldbe focused on proper qualifications and training. Even cops have to train to use their weapon, why not Mike Smith the average cictizen?

I respectfully disagree, I still dont want to get shot at by someone regardless if they are a marksmen or not. I dont want that one magic bullet hitting me or the stray bullet hitting a bystander. I had to go through a fairly rigorous training process to obtain my CCW. Granted it could always be more, but I had to first have a hunters safety course, which was very rigorous. My state is not even that strict relative to others as far as training goes. And the fact that most CCW holders are life long users of guns anyway and gun hobbiest who know how to properly use a firearm and what situations to use them in is better than any training one could ever receive from the state.

[TITANIUM]

I respect the views and opinions of others.It's been taught in our schools, and even collages, that firearms are bad.There are some of you who understand our constitutional rights.Then there are those of you that are basically scared of them.That is what mainstream media has taught you.Then, there is those of you who hate guns period.And think if we didn't have them, that society would be safer.Example, the police have a right to protect themselves and others, buy civilians don't? There is no argument or opinion that will change the facts and statistics.States that have CCW laws have lower crime rates.It's people that are misusing them that need to be punished.Now, for those of you that don't no the federal law,every time a firearm is bought,anywhere, they go through NICS.The ATF oversees and NICS run a current background checks.Nics is a part of the FBI, actually, that is who they are.I've seen things that no man should see.And anyone else that has served in the military or law enforcement believes in this right.Why?From a overbearing, and tyrannical government.Once they take away constitutional rights, and civil liberties,then we are not a governed nation, but a ruled nation.

[Flagg]

I certainly was not trying to insult your intelligence. However, you made several claims which are unsubstantiated by the available data. So, I would appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions as to my own personal experiences, I have been involved with and seen things I would not like any other person to see. However, when arguing a point, I prefer to use facts and statistics which are more or less irrefutable, than to use straw man arguments which have no quantifiable way of being measured.

When you speak from personal experience, we call these things anecdotes. They are more or less useless for the sake of argument, because there is no way to eliminate the many confounding variables which could be effecting your opinion. Statistics are more relevant when discussing national problems, because they account for regional differences.

You want an original statement from me? I concealed&carried on a daily basis when I was in college. Having that tool at my disposable should something threaten my life made me feel much safer. In fact, I almost had to draw my weapon on a person who I thought was going to attempt to rob me. So I am quite apprehensive when bleeding heart liberals want to make ME less safe, or make my FAMILY less safe, and limit MY right to defend myself and my family because their misguided opinions and fear mongering scare people into thinking an INANIMATE OBJECT like a gun is responsible for all the evil in the world.

What do these laws do? They DO NOT stop criminals from carrying guns across state lines concealed on their persons, that is why they are by definition a CRIMINAL. ALL that legislation does is prevent LAW ABIDING CITIZENS from being able to protect themselves from the criminals who break the laws. It penalizes the good guys, and rewards the bad guys. Concluding that we need more gun control is so illogical that it boggles my mind how anyone can hold this belief. Especially when the NUMBERS, which you seem unconcerned with, indicate DRASTIC decreases in violent crime in states that have instituted CONCEAL AND CARRY.

Can I just ask what you thought was going to endanger your life when you was at college? I mean, I don't carry any weapons with me at Uni and I never feel like my life is going to be threatened. My Uni has been around since 1862 and no one yet to date has ever been murdered.

[spywizard]

I dont agree with this Bill.. Too many people are not mature enough to handle the responsibility of carrying weapons across state lines.
If we want the Wild west back then be my guest. All each person would be doing is trying to buy more guns than their neighbor. Guns dont kill people, People kill people. Rather than try to arm the entire country and every half bit fool, How about we focus on the illegal gun trade and get those who should not have weapons dealt with and the sellers made to justify their ignorance for selling 45 guns to a college student.

You should have to jump through hoops to own a gun in my opinion. Too many people who have no brain own guns legally and illegally.

really??/ more people should not be allowed to reproduce, and good God we need to stop these incompetent killers that drive cars..

criminals don't get licensed to carry a firearm, they simply put it in their pockets and rape your wife while you are tied up.. or kill you outright..

but hey, we all have different experiences.. there can be no wolves if there are no sheep..

[vpchill]

really??/ more people should not be allowed to reproduce, and good God we need to stop these incompetent killers that drive cars..

criminals don't get licensed to carry a firearm, they simply put it in their pockets and rape your wife while you are tied up.. or kill you outright..

but hey, we all have different experiences.. there can be no wolves if there are no sheep..

Bump to Post #22.. Im not in total disagreement.