Cash for Clunkers went bankrupt after four days

[SMCengineer]

Then it was quickly 'revived' with a $2 Billion injection because it was such a 'success!' Who knew giving away money would be popular?

To me it represents keynesianism at it's worst, government collusion, corporate welfare, the broken window fallacy, utter contempt for people who can only afford 'clunkers,' stimulating the accruence of more debt (both public and private), and a completely idiotic attempt at "decreasing carbon emissions."

On it's goal of reducing inefficient cars, I heard someone explain the plan as: crushing the cars using fuel, transporting the crushed cars on a freight train using fuel, shipping the metal over to China on a boat using fuel and finally melting the metal down so China can make Hummers (a company they just bought from us) and then selling them back to American consumers. I guess that's a success in the governments eyes?

Next up, healthcare!

[spywizard]

King Obama was on the news tonight saying it was a great success..

[ray0414]

King Obama was on the news tonight saying it was a great success..

i wonder what his definition of "success" is? if by success he means it bankrupted tax dollars then yep it sure was lol

[zaggahamma]

remember when we were kids and used to say " just make some more money"?

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

Yes We Can!

[Immortal Soldier]

You guys are complaing about 2 billion dollars?

Go see how much the Iraq war has drained, better yet go see how much money the US is paying to start velvet revolutions in countries like Iran or how much military aid we give Israel per year. We spent 387 million dollars per F-22 aircraft under the Bush administration only to have the program canceled after 167 aircraft. You guys can sit and blame Obama all you want, but the congressmen you elect from your state are the ones putting in pork barrel spending on the stimulus to have hundreds of millions of dollars (tens of billions total) to do their own little "pet projects".

Guys if you really want to start bitching about the government spending on stupid things, I can draw up a list for you. The old cars had to get off the higher sooner or later because their are laws coming into place in the near future that will have mandatory minimums on how much miles per gallon cars are at produced at.

[SMCengineer]

You guys are complaing about 2 billion dollars?

It's not the amount of money that concerns me, it's the complete ineptness of government to run even a small scale program, such as this, successfully for even a week (I think their stated goal was 4 months). Now they want to 'save' healthcare, but they were the ones who wrecked healthcare to begin with.

Go see how much the Iraq war has drained, better yet go see how much money the US is paying to start velvet revolutions in countries like Iran or how much military aid we give Israel per year. We spent 387 million dollars per F-22 aircraft under the Bush administration only to have the program canceled after 167 aircraft. You guys can sit and blame Obama all you want, but the congressmen you elect from your state are the ones putting in pork barrel spending on the stimulus to have hundreds of millions of dollars (tens of billions total) to do their own little "pet projects".

Although it's irrevelant to the thread, profligate domestic spending is not justified by profligate spending on foreign interventions nor is the reverse true.

The old cars had to get off the higher sooner or later because their are laws coming into place in the near future that will have mandatory minimums on how much miles per gallon cars are at produced at.

Old cars don't have to be pulled off the road at any time. Laws that are put into place will necessarily have to grandfather cars in that were produced before that point. Old cars, or 'clunkers' serve the public AND help the economy far more than any politician ever could.

[Kratos]

You guys are complaing about 2 billion dollars?

Go see how much the Iraq war has drained, better yet go see how much money the US is paying to start velvet revolutions in countries like Iran or how much military aid we give Israel per year. We spent 387 million dollars per F-22 aircraft under the Bush administration only to have the program canceled after 167 aircraft. You guys can sit and blame Obama all you want, but the congressmen you elect from your state are the ones putting in pork barrel spending on the stimulus to have hundreds of millions of dollars (tens of billions total) to do their own little "pet projects".

Guys if you really want to start bitching about the government spending on stupid things, I can draw up a list for you. The old cars had to get off the higher sooner or later because their are laws coming into place in the near future that will have mandatory minimums on how much miles per gallon cars are at produced at.

translation, I voted for Obama, and rather then admit he isn't doing everything perfectly, I'll change the subject.

The old cars had to get off the road sooner or later because mandatory min mile per gallon requirements are coming in to place...duh, cars that are on the road have nothing to do with CAFE. New cars produced, not cars on the road. You can drive a model T until you die as far as the laws are concerned. CAFE is stupid and very costly for the American public. If you want me to go into detail let me know.

Who says we can't complain about Iraq and Cash or Clunkers at the same time?

3 billion could go a long way in aiding the domestic auto-makers.
for example, they could help set up a co-op battery development lab aided by the gvmt with the big 3.
The competition would take years to catch up.

I'm sorry but Bush was horrible, Obama is worse, McCain was no different.
Our country is being mis-managed far worse then the big 3. People like you are so concerned with beating the other team, that you're blind to the dick in your ass. Quit cheerleading and don't be afraid to criticize.

btw, the f-22 is not pure waste, useful airplanes were delivered...maybe they are quite a bit more costly then the joint strike fighter, but the joint strike fighter is not a direct replacement for the f-22...it's a pig in a dog fight. The pentagon wastes a ton, but it was an airplane they wanted, and it was a massive leap forward. We will fly that plane for the next 20-30 years even though we don't produce it anymore. It's like calling the f-16 a pet project because we don't make them anymore.

[gixxerboy1]

anyone see the thing on Glen Beck that if you go onto the cars.gov site in the warning is says your computer is now government property. And any and all files can be looked at or downloaded and shared with law enforcement and other government agencies foreign and domestic

[Tigershark]

Yes We Can!

Lmao!

[*RAGE*]

Fuvk king OBAMA

now having said that, I just feel better....

[yucon92]

Fuvk king OBAMA

now having said that, I just feel better....

x1000000000000000000000000000000 he will 100% be the worst thing that has ever happend to this country

[*RAGE*]

Oh yea and you cant bitch about Iraq unless you have been there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Immortal Soldier]

Oh yea and you cant bitch about Iraq unless you have been there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

What does that have to do with anything? What a childish statement to make. The Iraq war regardless of how you look at it, was a war that Cheney and Hailburton wanted, it was a blood war. It had nothing to do with the war on terror, it had nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction, it was a war over oil and the hopes of setting a pro-US government in the middle east (which consequently is failing since Iraq is closer to Iran than it is to the US). Cheney and company used weapons of mass destruction as a pre-text they had no evidence instead they had to keep looking and make up evidence to go along with it. You think a country that spends hundreds of billions of dollars per year for 5 years on a war that is not needed while trying to sustain another war is not going to have economical troubles? Pro-longed wars are the death of nations, this has been true since the beginning of time. Wars need money to survive, a war that goes on to long begins to cripple a country's economy.

Set your politics aside and look at it from an economical point of view, saying such a childish thing that "you cant bitch about Iraq unless you been there" shows your immaturity. Nobody is talking about the bravery of our troops we are talking about what let to the downfall of this economy and that was a war that was not needed in any circumstance. If I was a soldier I wouldn't bitch about Iraq, because if I wasn't in Iraq I would be in Afghanistan so the difference is just another shit hole. My duty would be to serve my country regardless, I don't ask questions, they pay me to protect and serve so I do it regardless if I was in Iraq or Afghanistan or stationed in a base in Europe. But every American has the right to complain about a war they see as unjust or not in their interest, because its the American taxpayers thats paying for that war.

The downfall of the economy was a synergistic effect of the following: A "bubble" in the economy that made the economy WORTH MORE that it actually was, it showed the economy doing better/excelling/worth more than the actual value it was. So when that bubble kept getting strained by automakers pumping out cars when the market was shrinking and banks giving out home loans to people who wouldn't be able to pay them it was pressed to the brink. Add in lack of regulations on Wall Street along with a rising war cost and the bubble finally popped. Then that "fake wealth" of the economy started to show, that value that never existed was gone, first the housing market fell (2006) then the automakers realized they are big trouble and scrambled to stay afloat, then the banks started failing since people couldn't pay their loans and foreclosures were happening in mass numbers.

Everyone wants to blame Obama in his 6 months in office because he hasn't miraculously turned around the economy and world that Bush/Cheney (and to be fair) Wall Street itself, single handily destroyed. Taking a non-biased standpoint you will see that Obama is just a man, a president, he CANNOT single handily change everything he needs the support of Congress. Unfortunately, alot of people complaining about Obama don't understand how a government works, it's not just one man controlling everything thats called a dictatorship. So anything that passes is because of Congress, NOT because Obama passed it. He might want certain and recommends what he wants, but Congress has to approve everything. You want to place blame, don't place it on one man, place it on the entire US government (House reps, Congress, etc.)

Sometimes government regulation/intervention is needed, after the stock market crash of 1929, regulations were put into place to try to prevent another collapse from occurring. As of right now there are regulations being put into place to prevent another recession like this from occurring, but don't get it wrong recessions are part of the economical cycle just as much as booms are. The economy booms for while then stagnant and enters a recession than booms again, that is the cycle, but whenever a recession shows signs of weakening of the system in its entirety that's when the problem occurs.

[Mooseman33]

.

Everyone wants to blame Obama in his 6 months in office because he hasn't miraculously turned around the economy and world that Bush/Cheney (and to be fair) Wall Street itself, single handily destroyed. Taking a non-biased standpoint you will see that Obama is just a man, a president, he CANNOT single handily change everything he needs the support of Congress. Unfortunately, alot of people complaining about Obama don't understand how a government works, it's not just one man controlling everything thats called a dictatorship. So anything that passes is because of Congress, NOT because Obama passed it. He might want certain and recommends what he wants, but Congress has to approve everything. You want to place blame, don't place it on one man, place it on the entire US government (House reps, Congress, etc.)

funny how u say bush/cheney single handily destroyed our economy.
then u say obama is just a man, he cannot single handily change anything, he needs congress..why was ccongress left out of ur blame with bush, tey passed the laws for deregulation allowing wall streets/ finance sector to run wild.

during bush last term, congress was the same it is today, a disaster, far left mental liberals led by someone who should be considered a domestic terrorist nancy pelosi..

and take ur own advise, dont place n=blame on one man, or even two...blame the entire US givernment..

[ni4ni]

funny how u say bush/cheney single handily destroyed our economy.
then u say obama is just a man, he cannot single handily change anything, he needs congress..why was ccongress left out of ur blame with bush, tey passed the laws for deregulation allowing wall streets/ finance sector to run wild.

during bush last term, congress was the same it is today, a disaster, far left mental liberals led by someone who should be considered a domestic terrorist nancy pelosi..

and take ur own advise, dont place n=blame on one man, or even two...blame the entire US givernment..

mooseman, well said!!
left wing dems-

pelosi is the queen CRUNT

[G4R]

Then it was quickly 'revived' with a $2 Billion injection because it was such a 'success!' Who knew giving away money would be popular?

To me it represents keynesianism at it's worst, government collusion, corporate welfare, the broken window fallacy, utter contempt for people who can only afford 'clunkers,' stimulating the accruence of more debt (both public and private), and a completely idiotic attempt at "decreasing carbon emissions."

On it's goal of reducing inefficient cars, I heard someone explain the plan as: crushing the cars using fuel, transporting the crushed cars on a freight train using fuel, shipping the metal over to China on a boat using fuel and finally melting the metal down so China can make Hummers (a company they just bought from us) and then selling them back to American consumers. I guess that's a success in the governments eyes?

Next up, healthcare!

I want to know who the magician in DC is who can pull $2 Billion out of their @$$. If I could pull 1/4 of that out of mine.... I would start digging now....

[SMCengineer]

I want to know who the magician in DC is who can pull $2 Billion out of their @$$. If I could pull 1/4 of that out of mine.... I would start digging now....

[Lemonada8]

well what the USA needs to learn is that those programs that were put in place after there recession to help out and reboot the economy needs to be removed... perfect example is welfare... welfare is the biggest waste of money in the USA and continues to be... the gov doesnt need to support people who dont want to work and such... get a fvckin job and try to support urself... unemplyoment is good, you have to actually show ur tryin to get a job and just cant right now... thats good... but welfare? WTF gov...

and to the point about obama not being able to change anythying... he has the power to hold congress in session untill they agree on someting, he ccan make them figure something out and not let them leave until they do so... so in a way he can oversee those decions but not be in part of discussion of them... thats what the biggest issue is IMO... is that he keeps gion on tv and such and telling us the same ole crap, and doesnt have anything new to day... but then again he was intelligent to pick peopel from teh extreme oppsites to be in his cabinet and such... cuz they will never/rarely agree on something and just becuz they are the most vocal of the bunch doesnt mean they are the best... seems that he set him self up to not have to do much becuz he needs everyone else to agree on something but by picking people who wont agree on something and filibuster their way thru it... he wont have to do much and has a great scape goat...

[sizerp]

Obama and congressmen are equal

[zimmy]

I don't get it...why is it EVERYTIME some one says something about obama...some one follows it up with a bush comparison or about the war...

2 things

1) obama hasn't done sh*t to stop the war or pullout
2) who gives a f*ck how bad bush did...that doesn't mean that you can do what you want so long as it's not worse than bush's spending / actions.

If that was the case I could say, I can kill people so long as I don't kill more than 2 people because then I'd be better than some serial killers.

[DSM4Life]

Obama is our savior

[SMCengineer]

The downfall of the economy was a synergistic effect of the following: A "bubble" in the economy that made the economy WORTH MORE that it actually was, it showed the economy doing better/excelling/worth more than the actual value it was. So when that bubble kept getting strained by automakers pumping out cars when the market was shrinking and banks giving out home loans to people who wouldn't be able to pay them it was pressed to the brink. Add in lack of regulations on Wall Street along with a rising war cost and the bubble finally popped. Then that "fake wealth" of the economy started to show, that value that never existed was gone, first the housing market fell (2006) then the automakers realized they are big trouble and scrambled to stay afloat, then the banks started failing since people couldn't pay their loans and foreclosures were happening in mass numbers.

The cause of the boom/bust cycle can be summed up simply as: low artificial interest rates cause malinvestments creating a boom, which eventually must be corrected by higher interest rates and an inevitable bust. Unless and until those malinvestments are liquidated the bust period will continue. We have not allowed liquidation yet.

Sometimes government regulation/intervention is needed, after the stock market crash of 1929, regulations were put into place to try to prevent another collapse from occurring. As of right now there are regulations being put into place to prevent another recession like this from occurring, but don't get it wrong recessions are part of the economical cycle just as much as booms are. The economy booms for while then stagnant and enters a recession than booms again, that is the cycle, but whenever a recession shows signs of weakening of the system in its entirety that's when the problem occurs.

The stock market crash was another symptom of low interest rates beginning in 1926. Large scale boom/bust cycles are not natural phenomena’s in economics. Indeed, the institutions that are responsible for such phenomena are outside forces, namely, central banks and governments. Regulation neither today nor in the past can stop a depression/recession primarily because regulations tend to only address symptoms of a much larger problem, which is an expansive monetary policy. Regulation that was put in place during the early 30’s had the direct result of prolonging the recession and turning it into a depression. Government interventions started by Hoover and, later continued, by Roosevelt caused the Depression to last for 16 years.

[gigabitbucket]

I am just waiting for inflation , FUN! Higher Taxes and all!
buy now while you can, as soon as president obama bin laden gets done with his spending, our money wont be worth crap!

Reminds me of president carters time in office.
if you do not learn from history you are doomed to repeat it! who said that

[spywizard]

Obama is our savior

yep, just like hitler.. he used the media to control the hearts and minds of the masses..

[BgMc31]

i hope he doesnt fail also cause i live here but sounds to me like all hes gonna do is help the ones thatdont wanna work and spit out 14 babies and get paid fot it while the decent hard working middle class gets rapped

Where do you get your information from? Please tell me where he has stated he want no one to work and to have 14 babies and get paid? I often wonder what people like this are getting their info...

yep, just like hitler.. he used the media to control the hearts and minds of the masses..

Completely unfair statement, spywizard. Bush manipulated the media just as much as Obama has. The fact remains that the only way a politician can be successful in thru successful media cohersion. It's been true since Rome. Comparing Obama to Hitler is way off base, IMO!!!

[Narkissos]

yep, just like hitler..

Comparing Obama to Hitler is way off base, IMO!!!

It's worse than just 'off base' IMHO.

[thegodfather]

It's worse than just 'off base' IMHO.

Well, if Obama came to power after Hitler, he would not have prosecuted the Nazi's or the SS. Because in Obama's own words, the country needs to look forward not back, never mind all those pesky little war crimes that occurred for 8 years under the Bush regime. Who really gives a shit about torturing detainees, holding people for 5-7 years without a trial, and the 93 detainee deaths at Guantanamo which were ruled not from natural causes? Well, Obama certainly doesn't.

“it is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution,” President Obama said in a statement released today.

So not only should we not prosecute war criminals, because after all they were just "following orders," as many of the war criminals in Nuremberg claimed, we should also ASSURE them they are off the hook for violating peoples human rights under the Constitution and International Law. Change? Reallyyyyyyyy............


Are you a US citizen?

[Kratos]

well, I know first hand how the program is working as the car industry is part of my family business.

It doesn't....

It's a mass destruction of our countries resources at a huge cost and is no help to the car industry.

first off, GM and Chrysler haven't been building cars and there is no inventory on dealer lots. Plus American car companies aren't seen as fuel efficent in consumers minds...then the people buying the cars aren't new car buyers...so they buy used cars.

So all that happens is the cost of used cars goes up and the new cars being sold were probably produced over seas.

The dealer throws (I forget what chemical) in the oil pan and start the engine and seize it. Render the transmission unfixable.

scan about 50 pages of documents in the the gvmt...where someone has to review it all at god knows what cost...plus the audits that are sure to come to bust dealers who make an error in paper work.

the car that replaces their clunker gets about 4mpg on average better
total waste of a working car and the parts in it

oh and the computer system works so poorly that the dealers spend about a day getting one deal through the system.

[thegodfather]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWs12ccbOiE


I wont comment on the economic side of things, because some people in this thread just have absolutely no f**king clue what they are talking about. It's a good idea to STFU unless you really know what you're saying. Placing blame on Wall Streeters is a good example, thats just, hilarious. Anyway, theres the video with Glenn Beck, enjoy.

[Hoggage_54]

lol...

[BgMc31]

All I hear is complaints from the opposition but no answers. I'm waiting for someone to come up with a real alternative to stimulate the economy. You may not like what Obama is doing, but at least he's doing something. Something he thinks will stimulate the economy. Only time will tell if it's effective.

Fact remains, that the cash for clunkers has worked. People are trading in their gas guzzlers for more economical cars, causing these car companies to have to manufacter more cars, keeping people employed. It's caused banks to lend money. Wait to see what happens. It's been 6 months, fellas. And I know many of you thought our country would implode, but it hasn't happened and I don't think it will.

[thegodfather]

All I hear is complaints from the opposition but no answers. I'm waiting for someone to come up with a real alternative to stimulate the economy. You may not like what Obama is doing, but at least he's doing something. Something he thinks will stimulate the economy. Only time will tell if it's effective.

Fact remains, that the cash for clunkers has worked. People are trading in their gas guzzlers for more economical cars, causing these car companies to have to manufacter more cars, keeping people employed. It's caused banks to lend money. Wait to see what happens. It's been 6 months, fellas. And I know many of you thought our country would implode, but it hasn't happened and I don't think it will.

1) Eliminate central banking and fractional reserve banking. Slowly phase out the Federal Reserve bank over 1-2 years. Artificial manipulation of interest rates is responsible for bubbles. Setting interest rates below what the market can tolerate causes the economy to eventually correct itself, as we are seeing now.

* Interest rates should be set by competition between lenders.

* Fractional reserve banking is also responsible for this. The last time I checked, banks were being held to a 1:30 reserve ratio. That means for every dollar someone deposits into an account, they can loan out $30 with $1 of physical money backing it. The problems of this system are self-evident. At the least the reserve ratio should be greatly reduced.

* Congress needs to take back control over the ability to coin money, as it was originally stated in the Constitution, and as it has not been amended since, making the actions of the Federal Reserve illegal.

2) Cut all Federal agencies and programs at least 50% across the board. Eliminate wasteful and INEFFECTIVE AGENCIES, such as Dept.Of Education, Dept.Of Homeland Security, Dept.Of Agriculture, Food&Drug Administration, etc, etc, etc. YOU HAVE TO CUT SPENDING! Cutting spending to year 2000 levels, would allow us to eliminate the income tax on wages completely.

3) Repeal the 16th amendment and ELIMINATE THE INCOME TAX ON WAGES. The traditional meaning of income, was profits&gains. Income was usually reserved for businesses and corporations. A profit is when you have a surplus. When you go to work for someone, you are making an EXCHANGE, your time&labor for X amount of money per hour. It is impossible for the government or anyone else to delineate which part of your hour of work is an exchange, and which part is profits&gains. Citizens would have an extra 18%-39.5% of their income to put into the economy. Spending stimulates the economy. Additionally, the only two forms of taxation permitted under the Constitution were apportioned taxes and excise taxes.

4) Eliminate all Federal drug laws, decriminalization across the board. Allow states to determine their own drug laws, as they are Constitutionally permitted to. Roughly 50% of all incarcerated persons in Federal prisons are serving time for Federal drug crimes. This amounts to approximately 800,000 people at a cost of $35,000/yr PER INMATE, to the tax payer. Additionally, agencies like the Drug Enforcement Administration have enormous budgets for the "war on drugs," which can be better spent fighting REAL CRIME like rape, murder, and robbery, instead of trying to penalize people for unpopular personal decisions. Drug laws is nothing more than LEGISLATED MORALITY. Additionally, States who choose to tax these substances can turn a profit therefore passing on the savings to the tax payer, or by providing a service to the tax payer.



I wrote a 20 page thesis on this topic. So I'm giving you an abstract basically. My paper goes into very thorough detail, with tons of data to back up each of my points, and there are many more. If we just do the FOUR things that I pointed out, THAT ALONE is enough to get this country out of the economic downturn and get the economy really working again.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

1) Eliminate central banking and fractional reserve banking. Slowly phase out the Federal Reserve bank over 1-2 years. Artificial manipulation of interest rates is responsible for bubbles. Setting interest rates below what the market can tolerate causes the economy to eventually correct itself, as we are seeing now.

* Interest rates should be set by competition between lenders.

* Fractional reserve banking is also responsible for this. The last time I checked, banks were being held to a 1:30 reserve ratio. That means for every dollar someone deposits into an account, they can loan out $30 with $1 of physical money backing it. The problems of this system are self-evident. At the least the reserve ratio should be greatly reduced.

* Congress needs to take back control over the ability to coin money, as it was originally stated in the Constitution, and as it has not been amended since, making the actions of the Federal Reserve illegal.

2) Cut all Federal agencies and programs at least 50% across the board. Eliminate wasteful and INEFFECTIVE AGENCIES, such as Dept.Of Education, Dept.Of Homeland Security, Dept.Of Agriculture, Food&Drug Administration, etc, etc, etc. YOU HAVE TO CUT SPENDING! Cutting spending to year 2000 levels, would allow us to eliminate the income tax on wages completely.

3) Repeal the 16th amendment and ELIMINATE THE INCOME TAX ON WAGES. The traditional meaning of income, was profits&gains. Income was usually reserved for businesses and corporations. A profit is when you have a surplus. When you go to work for someone, you are making an EXCHANGE, your time&labor for X amount of money per hour. It is impossible for the government or anyone else to delineate which part of your hour of work is an exchange, and which part is profits&gains. Citizens would have an extra 18%-39.5% of their income to put into the economy. Spending stimulates the economy. Additionally, the only two forms of taxation permitted under the Constitution were apportioned taxes and excise taxes.

4) Eliminate all Federal drug laws, decriminalization across the board. Allow states to determine their own drug laws, as they are Constitutionally permitted to. Roughly 50% of all incarcerated persons in Federal prisons are serving time for Federal drug crimes. This amounts to approximately 800,000 people at a cost of $35,000/yr PER INMATE, to the tax payer. Additionally, agencies like the Drug Enforcement Administration have enormous budgets for the "war on drugs," which can be better spent fighting REAL CRIME like rape, murder, and robbery, instead of trying to penalize people for unpopular personal decisions. Drug laws is nothing more than LEGISLATED MORALITY. Additionally, States who choose to tax these substances can turn a profit therefore passing on the savings to the tax payer, or by providing a service to the tax payer.



I wrote a 20 page thesis on this topic. So I'm giving you an abstract basically. My paper goes into very thorough detail, with tons of data to back up each of my points, and there are many more. If we just do the FOUR things that I pointed out, THAT ALONE is enough to get this country out of the economic downturn and get the economy really working again.

boom!

[SMCengineer]

All I hear is complaints from the opposition but no answers. I'm waiting for someone to come up with a real alternative to stimulate the economy. You may not like what Obama is doing, but at least he's doing something. Something he thinks will stimulate the economy. Only time will tell if it's effective.

“Stimulating the economy” is simply empty political rhetoric and nothing else. Time is not the factor that will determine if this or any program that Obama or Bush has tried will be successful. The laws of economics and human nature can and will suffice.

Fact remains, that the cash for clunkers has worked. People are trading in their gas guzzlers for more economical cars, causing these car companies to have to manufacter more cars, keeping people employed. It's caused banks to lend money. Wait to see what happens. It's been 6 months, fellas. And I know many of you thought our country would implode, but it hasn't happened and I don't think it will.

In what way is cash for clunkers a success? The fact that it’s taking fully working paid off cars, off of the road and out of the market and then destroying them, while simultaneously giving away money as an incentive and as corporate welfare, is absolutely asinine, especially during a recession. There are people, myself included, who can only afford the ‘clunkers’ that are being destroyed. There’s no telling what those cars or even their parts may have been used for. This is NOT in any way a new or different policy. This is very much the same Keynesian policies that failed during the Great Depression. What you just explained is the Broken Window fallacy (http://freedomkeys.com/window.htm) to the T! It’s otherwise known as opportunity costs or “that which is unseen.” This kind of reminds of Hoover and Roosevelt plowing crops, killing livestock, and, subsequently, paying farmers to plow crops all in the name of raising food prices, meanwhile millions were starving!

[BgMc31]

1) Eliminate central banking and fractional reserve banking. Slowly phase out the Federal Reserve bank over 1-2 years. Artificial manipulation of interest rates is responsible for bubbles. Setting interest rates below what the market can tolerate causes the economy to eventually correct itself, as we are seeing now.

* Interest rates should be set by competition between lenders.

* Fractional reserve banking is also responsible for this. The last time I checked, banks were being held to a 1:30 reserve ratio. That means for every dollar someone deposits into an account, they can loan out $30 with $1 of physical money backing it. The problems of this system are self-evident. At the least the reserve ratio should be greatly reduced.

* Congress needs to take back control over the ability to coin money, as it was originally stated in the Constitution, and as it has not been amended since, making the actions of the Federal Reserve illegal.

2) Cut all Federal agencies and programs at least 50% across the board. Eliminate wasteful and INEFFECTIVE AGENCIES, such as Dept.Of Education, Dept.Of Homeland Security, Dept.Of Agriculture, Food&Drug Administration, etc, etc, etc. YOU HAVE TO CUT SPENDING! Cutting spending to year 2000 levels, would allow us to eliminate the income tax on wages completely.

3) Repeal the 16th amendment and ELIMINATE THE INCOME TAX ON WAGES. The traditional meaning of income, was profits&gains. Income was usually reserved for businesses and corporations. A profit is when you have a surplus. When you go to work for someone, you are making an EXCHANGE, your time&labor for X amount of money per hour. It is impossible for the government or anyone else to delineate which part of your hour of work is an exchange, and which part is profits&gains. Citizens would have an extra 18%-39.5% of their income to put into the economy. Spending stimulates the economy. Additionally, the only two forms of taxation permitted under the Constitution were apportioned taxes and excise taxes.

4) Eliminate all Federal drug laws, decriminalization across the board. Allow states to determine their own drug laws, as they are Constitutionally permitted to. Roughly 50% of all incarcerated persons in Federal prisons are serving time for Federal drug crimes. This amounts to approximately 800,000 people at a cost of $35,000/yr PER INMATE, to the tax payer. Additionally, agencies like the Drug Enforcement Administration have enormous budgets for the "war on drugs," which can be better spent fighting REAL CRIME like rape, murder, and robbery, instead of trying to penalize people for unpopular personal decisions. Drug laws is nothing more than LEGISLATED MORALITY. Additionally, States who choose to tax these substances can turn a profit therefore passing on the savings to the tax payer, or by providing a service to the tax payer.



I wrote a 20 page thesis on this topic. So I'm giving you an abstract basically. My paper goes into very thorough detail, with tons of data to back up each of my points, and there are many more. If we just do the FOUR things that I pointed out, THAT ALONE is enough to get this country out of the economic downturn and get the economy really working again.

I agree with your post there! I would be interested in reading your thesis as well if you don't mind emailing it to me (PM plz). But, can you give me some arguments that would be approved by any of the two parties. My point was the republican party has yet to offer any real rebutes to Obama's plans. I have heard your arguments before from some Libertarian friends of mine, and I whole heartedly agree, but I'm a realist and I know that none of the above proposals stand a snow balls chance in hell of passing.

“Stimulating the economy” is simply empty political rhetoric and nothing else. Time is not the factor that will determine if this or any program that Obama or Bush has tried will be successful. The laws of economics and human nature can and will suffice.

In what way is cash for clunkers a success? The fact that it’s taking fully working paid off cars, off of the road and out of the market and then destroying them, while simultaneously giving away money as an incentive and as corporate welfare, is absolutely asinine, especially during a recession. There are people, myself included, who can only afford the ‘clunkers’ that are being destroyed. There’s no telling what those cars or even their parts may have been used for. This is NOT in any way a new or different policy. This is very much the same Keynesian policies that failed during the Great Depression. What you just explained is the Broken Window fallacy (http://freedomkeys.com/window.htm) to the T! It’s otherwise known as opportunity costs or “that which is unseen.” This kind of reminds of Hoover and Roosevelt plowing crops, killing livestock, and, subsequently, paying farmers to plow crops all in the name of raising food prices, meanwhile millions were starving!

I doubt those cars are being destoyed Blome. They are probably being dismantled and sold off for parts. Corporate welfare...maybe, but it also stimulates the car companies by selling more cars causing more cars to be built, thus keeping people employed (both car builders and car sellers). Is it the best answer...NO? But its still, SOMETHING, right?

[BgMc31]

^^^^I think George W. Bush, single-handedly, accomplished that himself.

[BG]

^^^^I think George W. Bush, single-handedly, accomplished that himself.

X 2 No doubt !!!!

[yucon92]

yeah bush sucks but id take him over bin laden any day
od sorry obama

[Dancer]

Bush Foooked it up so bad that Obama got elected... simple as it gets.

I am sorry but everyone here that argues about Obama this and Obama that, should be prayin for the man.


I am serious, he is the president. For better or worse he is there. I for one do hope he does not fail.