cardio on empty stomach

[youngmuscle123]

is this sticky material?

I hope so...literally just answered like 10 of my questions on cardio in a single thread.

[eatrainrest]

be smart kiddies eat before your cardio! lol.. a little isopure with added bcca/or glutamine should do the trick

[mho]

So... the fastest way to burn fat is to run on an empty stomach, but you will sacrifice muscle mass by doing this as well. Got it.

[aer_vlad]

Thanks for publishing the study Phate.

For further investigation, I'm curious to fat consumption and its' insulinogenic properties compare to that of protein and carbohydrates. What seems to be the mainstream opinion (at least in terms internet forums), fats decrease insulin secretagogue and glycogen re-synthesis. I have examined studies citing no effect or indifference to fat consumption and its effects thereof. But I most certainly digress from the scope of this thread. Although, I would be glad to dig those studies up if anyone is interested...

Similar to empty stomach cardio via glycogen depleted state, cardio post workout (being resistance training) seems to have comparable properties. Whether there is complete liver glycogen depletion after a resistance training is unknown to me. What I have read (magazines etc - i.e. not complete reputable sources) and from hearsay (and by no means am I saying this statement factual...it may or may not be) that 45 minutes of weight training depletes most glycogen in the liver and triggers a distinct raise in cortisol. I'm sure intensity and pre-workout nutrition would play a predominate role in determining the body's glycogen consumption. Anyone to shed more light on this 'magic number' would be appreciated...

In sum, does anyone here find cardio after weight training beneficial/detrimental? I suppose the same would go for morning cardio on an empty stomach. Whether there is significant differences between the catabolic nature (assuming there is any) of these two scenarios, I don't know, but I would imagine they're closely related. I just wonder if one is better then the other.

My last thought for the evening: in simple terms, insulin is anabolic hormone. Consequently, a raise in insulin will not only increase muscle protein turnover, but minimize amino acid breakdown. The latter requires only a small secretion of insulin to minimize catabolism:

Branched-chain amino acids as fuels and anabolic signals in human muscle.
Rennie MJ, Bohé J, Smith K, Wackerhage H, Greenhaff P.

Medical Sciences, University of Aberdeen, Aberdeen AB24 3FX, UK. [email protected]

During exercise, there is an increase in amino acid (AA) oxidation accompanied by a depression in whole-body protein synthesis and an increase in protein breakdown. Leucine oxidation increases in proportion to energy expenditure, but the total contribution of BCAA to fuel provision during exercise is minor and insufficient to increase dietary protein requirements. When investigating the effects of AA on the control of muscle protein synthesis (MPS), we showed that increased availability of mixed AAs caused a rise in human MPS to about the same extent as complete meals. Leucine alone (and to some extent other essential, but not nonessential, AAs) can stimulate MPS for a short period, suggesting that leucine acts as a signal as well as a substrate. MPS stimulation by infused AAs shows tachyphylaxis, returning to basal rates after 2 h, possibly explaining why chronically elevated leucine delivery does not elevate MPS clinically. Increased availability of essential amino acids (EAAs) results in dose-related responses of MPS, but, in elderly subjects, there is blunted sensitivity and responsiveness associated with decreased total RNA and mRNA for signaling proteins and signaling activity. Increases of MPS due to EAAs are associated with elevation of signaling activity in the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR)/p70 ribosomal subunit S6 kinase eukaryotic initiation factor 4 binding protein 1 pathway, without requiring rises of plasma insulin availability above 10 microU/mL. However, at insulin of <5 microU/mL, AAs appear to stimulate MPS without increasing mTOR signaling. Further increasing availability of insulin to postprandial values increases signaling activity, but has no further effect on MPS.

PMID: 16365095 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

In other words, muscle protein synthesis was preserved beyond an insulin level slightly above baseline. However, the amount of BCAA's to achieve the "slight" response is not stated by the study abstract - I will read more later. And the big question: if only small insulin elevation wards off muscle catabolsim, does the same hold true for body fat? Perhaps not - at least I hope. Again, anyone have any idea? I suppose solid food would inflict the same reaction - my beef against BCAA's supplements are their high cost and unnecessary indigestion if whole food is available. They do offer specific amounts which may be reflected by the study and therefore, beneficial if trying to maintain the "fasted" state.

I've seemed to have raised a few points off topic, which I apologize, but I find this debate most compelling and it strikes my fancy haha. And thank you Phate for contributing your knowledge and experience. I would like to point out that by means of rebuttal, I mean no disrespect. By any means, if what I post is flawed, please correct me. I do not claim to be medically accurate nor qualified to make legitimate assumptions - I just apply what I have read to my personal experiences and hopefully share what I know and invest in what others will hopefully do the same.

Anyways, goodnight for now.

[eatrainrest]

yes, post workout LOW intensity cardio i have found to be affective no longer than 30 minutes but, i take down some 10g BCAA's to be safe prior. immeadiately after i follow with 2 scoops whey with waxy maize startch, or plain bagel. have found this very effective in regards to preserving mucsle. using anaerobics is where you can screw up and start cannabilizing muscle tissue. same principles as AM with PM, except for PM i will ahve had a meal probly 2.5 hours just before i start cardio than having AM cardio in a fasting state of at least 8 hours. POST WORKOUT IS DEFINATELY RECOMMENDED IMO just dont exceed 30 min and make sure it follows immediately after resistance training and follow with proper PWO nutrition. here are some interesting reads.

ANAEROBICS AND MUSCLE TISSUE CANNABLISM

WHEN GLUCOSE IS DEPLETING DURING ANAEROBIC ACTIVITY, THERE ARE STRESS HORMONES RELEASED BY THE ADRENAL GLANDS TO TRIGGER THE LIVER TO RELEASE ENZYMES INTO THE BLOODSTREAM FOR THE DEAMINATION AND CANNIBALISM OF AMINO ACIDS, BLOOD PROTEINS, ORGAN TISSUE, AND MUSCLE TISSUE. IN THE ABSENCE OF GLUCOSE DURING INTENSE ANAEROBIC ACTIVITY, THE ENERGY NEEDS ARE BEYOND THE OXYGEN AND FATTY ACIDS SUPPLY, AND MUSCLE TISSUE WILL HAVE TO BE CANNIBALIZED TO PROVIDE FOR THE BALANCE OF THE ENRGY NEEDED TO KEEP UP WITH THIS CONTINUED DEMAND. IT IS INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT THE DEPLETION OF CELLUAR ENERGY DURING RESISTANCE EXERCISE TRIGGERS THE CANNIBALISM OF THE INTRACELLUAR PROTEINS IN THE WORKING MUSCLES ONLY, NOT AMINO ACIDS, BLOOD PROTEINS, AND ORGAN TISSUE, LIKE THE CASE OF AEROBIC ACTIVITY.

CARDIO ALONE

THE FACT IS THAT WHILE USING CARDIO ALONE, AND WHILE ON A STRICT DIET, YOUR MUSCLE WILL BE CANNABLIZED AND USED FOR ENERGY INSTEAD OF FAT SINCE THE BODY WILL DESIRE TO MAINTAIN FAT FOR SURVIVAL DURING THE EXISTING LOW CALORIE DIET.

POST WORKOUT ACTIVITY AND FAT LOSS

ASIDE FROM EXCLUSIVE HIGH REP TRAINING WITH A HIGH RECOVERY HEART RATE FOR AEROBIC STIMULATION, THERE IS LITTLE FATTY ACID USE FOR ENERGY DURING THE RESISTANCE WORKOUT.
THE MAJORITY OF ENERGY USED DURING RESISTANCE EXERCISE COMES FROM GLUCOSE AND/OR STORED SUGAR (GLYOGEN) IN THE MUSCLES. HOWEVER, DURING RECOVERY IMMEDAITELY AFTER (AND BETWEEN) WORKOUTS, FATTY ACIDS PROVIDE A GREATER PROPORTION OF THE ENERGY REQUIRED BY THE MUSCLE TO FUNCTION DURING LESS INTENSE POST WORKOUT ACTIVITY WHILE IT TAKES UP NUTRIENTS SUCH AS BLOOD GLUCOSE AND AMINO ACIDS FOR CELLUAR REPAIRS, OR ANABOLISM. WITH THIS IN MIND, THE PERFORMANCE OF POST-WORKOUT LOW LEVEL ACTIVITY WILL REQUIRE YOUR FAT CELLS TO RELEASE GREATER AMOUNTS OF FATTY ACIDS;THAT WILL IN TURN BE USED BY THE MUSCLES WHILE THEY TAKE UP RECOVERY NUTRIENTS IN CARB RICH POST-WORKOUT MEALS. LOW LEVEL ACTIVITY CAN EFFECTIVELY BE MAINTAINED FOR PORLONGED PERIODS, AND FOR A SUGGESTED MINIMUM TIME PERIOD OF 5 TO TEN MINUTES AFTER YOUR RESISTANCE TRAINING WORKOUT.

[DNoMac]

There is great info posted here, but I think a lot of things get too complicated on here. There are always studies that support both sides for just about any argument. My approach, and my advice to you is to see what works best for you. I've done both and don't notice any difference in fat loss or muscle catabolism. To be honest, I think the differences would be pretty trivial and unnoticeable unless maybe you were in comp prep and at some ridiculously low bf % and trying to burn off the last bit of stubborn fat.

[eatrainrest]

There is great info posted here, but I think a lot of things get too complicated on here. There are always studies that support both sides for just about any argument. My approach, and my advice to you is to see what works best for you. I've done both and don't notice any difference in fat loss or muscle catabolism. To be honest, I think the differences would be pretty trivial and unnoticeable unless maybe you were in comp prep and at some ridiculously low bf % and trying to burn off the last bit of stubborn fat.

thats really all that matters, you can argue all you want but it comes down to that!

[Phate]

There is great info posted here, but I think a lot of things get too complicated on here. There are always studies that support both sides for just about any argument. My approach, and my advice to you is to see what works best for you. I've done both and don't notice any difference in fat loss or muscle catabolism. To be honest, I think the differences would be pretty trivial and unnoticeable unless maybe you were in comp prep and at some ridiculously low bf % and trying to burn off the last bit of stubborn fat.

i agree completely, aer_vlad and i are just debating for the sake of debating as it's nice to have an intelligent opponent to bounce ideas/arguments off of

[JohnThePhoenix]

so what would you phate or you aer suggest as proper BCAA supplementation as far as how much and what?

[faight]

good question

[eatrainrest]

quick protein, no carbs

[aer_vlad]

There is great info posted here, but I think a lot of things get too complicated on here. There are always studies that support both sides for just about any argument. My approach, and my advice to you is to see what works best for you. I've done both and don't notice any difference in fat loss or muscle catabolism. To be honest, I think the differences would be pretty trivial and unnoticeable unless maybe you were in comp prep and at some ridiculously low bf % and trying to burn off the last bit of stubborn fat.

This is a very true I think. People can cite medical studies all day and conjure up as much data to prove a point. In reality, it all boils down to what works for you. What seems to be beneficial could be just as detrimental to the next person. Crazy! But anyways, I enjoy arguing for the sake of competing ideas and as Phate mentioned, bouncing ideas off one another in effort to learn.

so what would you phate or you aer suggest as proper BCAA supplementation as far as how much and what?

The "supplement standard" or at least the most common, is 5g of the 2:1:1 BCAA ratio: L-Leucine, L-Isoleucine, L-Valine, respectively. For the sake sanity, I will assume this is fairly suitable - I doubt anyone is going to start buying amino acids separately and use your kitchen as a lab to mix and match.

Right now, meaning from my current standpoint based on my experiences and research done thus far, that for a straight forward number, I'd recommend 5g BCAA paired with 5g EAA (L-Lysine, L-Threonine, L-Phenylalanine, L-Histidine, L-Methionine). Maybe less - more isn't better in this case: "amino acid stimulated human muscle protein synthesis [...] without a large rise in insulin concentration." Decreased insulin response is of primary importance, the whole point of morning cardio. The published study, which I will continually cite in this post, utilized a relativity small amount of 10g. In order to starve off a catabolic environment, "increased exogenous BCAAs is likely to stimulate muscle protein synthesis (and possibly decreased muscle protein breakdown)." For fasted cardio in the morning, I could consume BCAA/EAA's 5-10 minutes within the start of the workout. Perhaps sooner. My reasoning is derived from the immediate glycogen depletion (from a fasted state) and adipose tissue synthesis, occurring roughly 20 minutes into exercise. Logically, this (magic! *sarcasm*) number would be (much) lower in an already fasted state. Exogenous BCAA/EAA supplementation suggests "that amino acid oxidation increased during exercise with whole-body protein synthesis depressed" paired with "increased blood flow to muscle as occurs during exercise would be a major stimulatory factor in increasing leucine oxidation."

I would recommend low intensity cardio, no longer then 2 hours. Probably 45-1 hour. Muscle protein synthesis has been proven to decrease substantially after 2 hours, despite the continued availability of BCAA/EAA. "In the post-exercise period, the data suggested that [...] protein synthesis and breakdown became positive." Therefore, immediately following cardio, or even during the "cool down," I would recommend a (whey) protein shake. Evidence illustrates endurance training improves protein metabolism, efficiency, and net balance. In other words, nothing drastic. I keep seeing people with 100g protein shakes or some ridiculously amount. Whether or not it is beneficial after resistance training is beyond the scope of this blurb, but post aerobic training, 20-30g protein would suffice. Keep it in moderation.

As a catch all disclaimer, BCAA/EAA metabolism accompanied by adipose tissue synthesis and reduced muscle catabolism is determined by a myriad of factors, including individual muscle RNA : protein ratio and the connective tissue extracellular three-dimensional network. Hormonal levels and/or imbalances would also play a large role accompanied by the individual VO2 capacity and intensity/frequency/time of exercise. In sum, your own experiences are better then what science can "prove." But in its defense, it helps provide a starting point.

Sources:
1. Food and Health R&D Laboratories, Meiji Seika Kaisha Ltd., 5-3-1 Chiyoda, Sakado, Saitama 350-0289, Japan. [email protected]

[bmit]

Personally I don't like the idea of going 8 hours without eating (catabolic) and then going and doing a catabolic activity (cardio) on an empty stomach. So I take down a whey protein shake upon waking and wait 45 minutes do digest and then hit cardio for low-mod intensity for 45 minutes and throw down bfast. and i also do 20 minutes cardio pwo when cutting.

[clancywiggum]

I've been able to reduce my bodyfat percentage from 15 down to 9 by doing the fasted-state cardio first thing in the morning. Tons of energy before and right after my run, and I wait an hour afterwards to eat my first meal.

If your diet is spot on, preferably in a slightly higher carb range, and your diet is predictable in the sense that your body gets fed at the same intervals throughout the day, then this whole idea of your body instantly slipping into some dire state of catabolism b/c it's jogging for 40 minutes on an empty stomach seems a bit alarmist.

You gotta realize that most of the scientific studies on this subject probably sampled a limited number of untrained people with possibly high-fat, high salt, or high sugar diets. Without a more longitudinal study, the conclusions of this dilemma cannot be relied upon. Therefore, I take those experiments with a grain of salt.

While catabolism may be higher in the morning upon awakening, it's not like pounds of muscle are sloughing off every 15 minutes you don't get some food. If your diet throughout the day is solid and plentiful, then I don't think this is a major or noticeable issue.

just my 2 cents

[eatrainrest]

I've been able to reduce my bodyfat percentage from 15 down to 9 by doing the fasted-state cardio first thing in the morning. Tons of energy before and right after my run, and I wait an hour afterwards to eat my first meal.

If your diet is spot on, preferably in a slightly higher carb range, and your diet is predictable in the sense that your body gets fed at the same intervals throughout the day, then this whole idea of your body instantly slipping into some dire state of catabolism b/c it's jogging for 40 minutes on an empty stomach seems a bit alarmist.

You gotta realize that most of the scientific studies on this subject probably sampled a limited number of untrained people with possibly high-fat, high salt, or high sugar diets. Without a more longitudinal study, the conclusions of this dilemma cannot be relied upon. Therefore, I take those experiments with a grain of salt.

While catabolism may be higher in the morning upon awakening, it's not like pounds of muscle are sloughing off every 15 minutes you don't get some food. If your diet throughout the day is solid and plentiful, then I don't think this is a major or noticeable issue.

just my 2 cents

i agree with most of what your saying but upon waking up your body is in starvation mode and breakfast is essential. not everybody is the same you are in an extreme catabolic state and prolonging it would do nothing but more damage. can be as simple as sucking down a shake with added BCAA's/glutamine to give the body something to know its not starving. you may be getting stronger doing something like this and not even noticing it because you currently do not eat anything. if i were to run AM cardio, it would defiantely not be complete empty tank

[jbm]

There is great info posted here, but I think a lot of things get too complicated on here. There are always studies that support both sides for just about any argument. My approach, and my advice to you is to see what works best for you. I've done both and don't notice any difference in fat loss or muscle catabolism. To be honest, I think the differences would be pretty trivial and unnoticeable unless maybe you were in comp prep and at some ridiculously low bf % and trying to burn off the last bit of stubborn fat.

Agreed! just keep it simple...

[laduem88]

i have done it both ways, but i don't think "empty stomach cardio" is a very descritive term, a much better one would be "glycogen depleted cardio" or just cardio in a glycogen depleted state as that's more accurate

my logic behind taking things before cardio is thus, the things i am taking do one of two things: they either help the body promote fat oxidation or create an amino acid rich state in the blood and fill the amino acid pool

the reason for this is simple, if the amino acids are used for energy instead of fat, then that means that if they weren't there i would be using muscle instead, and i would prefer to burn through the aminos i ingest before cardio then the muscle i work so hard so put on

a certain percentage of energy during glycogen depleted cardio is going to come from gluconeogenesis, and though we try to keep that percentage as low as possible, it's still there, so i would prefer to burn through aminos that i ingest instead of ones that i build

does all this still apply when your on a cycle? i feel like even if you did cardio on an empty stomach when your on aas you wont loose muscle

[Phate]

does all this still apply when your on a cycle? i feel like even if you did cardio on an empty stomach when your on aas you wont loose muscle

on cycle you wouldn't have to worry about it much

[MACKATTACK]

This past week I have incorporated Morning cardio on an empty stomach and have seen quicker changes in relation to BF% and it helps to jump start the day and your metabolism in a great way.

[Redskinschamps]

How do you carb up the week of the show if you've been off carbs for 7 weeks

[eatrainrest]

How do you carb up the week of the show if you've been off carbs for 7 weeks

start your own thread, that is hijacking a thread, especially a good one

[Jon the Rooster]

Great info guys!!! Answered All my questions!!!

[ghettoboyd]

agreed, i've also read studies that show that fat is best burned in an oxygen saturated(that's kinda obvious since fat is oxidized) and a water super saturated environment, which makes sense as well

this supports the theory that low intensity aerobic cardio is best for fat burning

i wish i could slow myself down, ive been doing 30 mins HIIT on empty stomac 4 to 5 days per week. i just cant help but push myself to the limit. i see the fat melting away but the scale drops ever so slightly as if im keeping all my mass so its really hard to gage my proggress other than looking in the mirror. would i be better off just keeping it slow and steady? sorry to hyjack.

[JinNtonic]

The info on the board is amazing... Thank you.

[elpropiotorvic]

I know the thread is very old but I want to contribute with my exp..today I did my workout on an empty stomach(as usual), I took 50 mg of caffeine in pill at 5:15 a.m and I made a BCAA complex that contains 2400 mg of glutamine, leucine, isoleucine, arginine and valine(not much but didn't have money at the time) .. I took about 125 to 200 ml of this at 5:40 and got to the gym ... Started my workout with HIIT, the beckham sprinting workout to be precise, for twenty minutes; during that time I drank another 125 ml of the BCAA complex, felt good, then did my back and triceps routine, I felt awesome, great pump ( arginine probably helped here) and focus was there as well, after got home took my whey immediately and felt that anabolic state of hunger. For me I don't k ow it it wslas the caffeine or the BCAA's ( I have worked only on caffeine and didn't feel as good as today) or the placebo but definetly felt great I'm looking forward to working out tomorrow, what do u guys think placebo, BCAA, or placebo and caffeine or BCAA and caffeine?

[eatrainrest]

I know the thread is very old but I want to contribute with my exp..today I did my workout on an empty stomach(as usual), I took 50 mg of caffeine in pill at 5:15 a.m and I made a BCAA complex that contains 2400 mg of glutamine, leucine, isoleucine, arginine and valine(not much but didn't have money at the time) .. I took about 125 to 200 ml of this at 5:40 and got to the gym ... Started my workout with HIIT, the beckham sprinting workout to be precise, for twenty minutes; during that time I drank another 125 ml of the BCAA complex, felt good, then did my back and triceps routine, I felt awesome, great pump ( arginine probably helped here) and focus was there as well, after got home took my whey immediately and felt that anabolic state of hunger. For me I don't k ow it it wslas the caffeine or the BCAA's ( I have worked only on caffeine and didn't feel as good as today) or the placebo but definetly felt great I'm looking forward to working out tomorrow, what do u guys think placebo, BCAA, or placebo and caffeine or BCAA and caffeine?

i think your definately overthinking the process. Generally stick to what works for you. i can tell you that general rule of thumb is LI cardio followed by pro/carb meal, not followed by HIIT and then workout... bad idea IMO. Especially if your only having whey PWO. i think eventually you will digress, or not have the maximum gains that you may want to have.

[elpropiotorvic]

i think your definately overthinking the process. Generally stick to what works for you. i can tell you that general rule of thumb is LI cardio followed by pro/carb meal, not followed by HIIT and then workout... bad idea IMO. Especially if your only having whey PWO. i think eventually you will digress, or not have the maximum gains that you may want to have.

No, I don't do LI I just start the workout with HIIT and then workout. The whey is not my postworkout meal, I have also two eggs with broccoli onions and a slice of brown bread and 15 ml of olive oil... So u would change the HIIt for the LI and then workout?

[eatrainrest]

No, I don't do LI I just start the workout with HIIT and then workout. The whey is not my postworkout meal, I have also two eggs with broccoli onions and a slice of brown bread and 15 ml of olive oil... So u would change the HIIt for the LI and then workout?

i would perform LI cardio in the AM, then workout later in the day with post workout LI cardio or HIIT. if you cant do 2x a day then i wuld just slam down a breakfeast, workout 1.5 hours later, followed by LI or HIIT cardio 20-30 minutes

[elpropiotorvic]

i would perform LI cardio in the AM, then workout later in the day with post workout LI cardio or HIIT. if you cant do 2x a day then i wuld just slam down a breakfeast, workout 1.5 hours later, followed by LI or HIIT cardio 20-30 minutes

Mm.. Ok my time frame for training is from 5:35am to 7a.m ( that's pushing it ) how would u distribute ur time in for the cardio? I have to be at work at 9 but takes one hour to commute and 12 min to walk back from the gym leaving me 48 min to grab Pwo meal... Make lunch and shower...i study at nights so can't do( get of work at 6) the night workout...I don't want to sound a complainer... So if I didn't get u wrong... I should work the weights first and then cardio... Sorry if I'm making u repeat urself I'm a little slow

[eatrainrest]

Mm.. Ok my time frame for training is from 5:35am to 7a.m ( that's pushing it ) how would u distribute ur time in for the cardio? I have to be at work at 9 but takes one hour to commute and 12 min to walk back from the gym leaving me 48 min to grab Pwo meal... Make lunch and shower...i study at nights so can't do( get of work at 6) the night workout...I don't want to sound a complainer... So if I didn't get u wrong... I should work the weights first and then cardio... Sorry if I'm making u repeat urself I'm a little slow

not at all... yes seems that you are under time constraint. I think it would be best to eat a protein/carb breakfast prior to lifting (1.5 hours or at least 1 hour to avoid fatigue, digestion issues, etc). if you CANNOT do that, then i would slam down quick carbs with protein and caffeine sometrhing like honey and whey with caffeine. (assuming that you have to workout within under a half hour or so of consuming breakfast. other than that, eat a low GI carb/protein meal prior to hitting up the weights followed by LI or HIIT cardio to strip some fat off.

[elpropiotorvic]

not at all... yes seems that you are under time constraint. I think it would be best to eat a protein/carb breakfast prior to lifting (1.5 hours or at least 1 hour to avoid fatigue, digestion issues, etc). if you CANNOT do that, then i would slam down quick carbs with protein and caffeine sometrhing like honey and whey with caffeine. (assuming that you have to workout within under a half hour or so of consuming breakfast. other than that, eat a low GI carb/protein meal prior to hitting up the weights followed by LI or HIIT cardio to strip some fat off.

Ok i'll get the shake and hit the weights and alternate between LI and hIIT

[biggieSmalz]

This thread is awesome! Great info guys!

[j4ever41]

I've been able to reduce my bodyfat percentage from 15 down to 9 by doing the fasted-state cardio first thing in the morning. Tons of energy before and right after my run, and I wait an hour afterwards to eat my first meal.
If your diet is spot on, preferably in a slightly higher carb range, and your diet is predictable in the sense that your body gets fed at the same intervals throughout the day, then this whole idea of your body instantly slipping into some dire state of catabolism b/c it's jogging for 40 minutes on an empty stomach seems a bit alarmist.

You gotta realize that most of the scientific studies on this subject probably sampled a limited number of untrained people with possibly high-fat, high salt, or high sugar diets. Without a more longitudinal study, the conclusions of this dilemma cannot be relied upon. Therefore, I take those experiments with a grain of salt.

While catabolism may be higher in the morning upon awakening, it's not like pounds of muscle are sloughing off every 15 minutes you don't get some food. If your diet throughout the day is solid and plentiful, then I don't think this is a major or noticeable issue.

just my 2 cents

glade to see someone else doing this.

[Crispy_Pork]

There is great info posted here, but I think a lot of things get too complicated on here. There are always studies that support both sides for just about any argument. My approach, and my advice to you is to see what works best for you. I've done both and don't notice any difference in fat loss or muscle catabolism. To be honest, I think the differences would be pretty trivial and unnoticeable unless maybe you were in comp prep and at some ridiculously low bf % and trying to burn off the last bit of stubborn fat.

...agreed! What works for one may not work for another. There's so much information here, but a while back I decided to see what worked for me. I've tried cardio in the evening, in the morning and HIIT. Which one had a significant affect on my physically appearance? It was in fact HIIT. See the difference between a sprinter and a marathon runner? I decided to give HIIT a try and share my experience.
After a friend had told me I was "getting fat!" i was indeed increasing the handles around my waist with no packs visible on my stomach. I would wake up and hit the epileptical machine on an empty stomach. This initially began with a 4/5 minute light jog to warm up followed by 20 sec all out sprint (it would have been wise for me to strech after the warm up by as I was using the machine I didn't do this), hitting 80-85% maximum heart rate, (yes I was using a heart rate monitor watch) then go back to light jog around 55% maximum heart rate for 40 secs. I would repeat this for 20 minutes, then cool down for 5 minutes. Total workout was approx 30 mins. Initially, this was hard but in the end I could go at 85% for 45 secs and light jog for 90 secs. To keep the body guessing so it would not adapt to the workload and become more efficient, I would vary the sprint/jog times every 3 sessions. I first noticed the line on top of my abs after the first 8 sessions. This is what motivated me to carry on, as this was working for me. As the days/weeks went by I could litterally see my packs getting more defined (ab fats/love handles falling off). I don't work my stomach so i wouldn't say that they were hugely defined, but enough to visibly notice the lines. After around 2 half months, there was a huge significant change in my stomach fats/lurve handles, and I could see my packs! Oh, and for breakfast, I had porridge. Just my experience incase anyone is still confused or would like to try it out and see if this works for them. I didn't take any protein or carb prior to the workout. Despite the science behind it all, this is indeed a fat-busting way that worked for me!

[NS]

Ok that being said what do you wanna eat? Some lean protein, carbs or a shake?

Mannon, I don't mean to be a prick, but your name looks awfully like the word mammon meaning greedy pursuit of wealth.. probably just a horrible coincidence but your not a future scammer I hope?

[BigMatt]

Very interesting thread.

First, Phate, you mentioned that your protein has about 1g of carbohydrate; and therefore, causes no change in insulin. Correct me if I'm wrong, but protein (including whey) causes a fairly large raise in insulin - just by itself. Your pancreas isn't only responsive to carbohydrates.

Also, in contrast to you all who feel "shitty" after a fasted cardio state, I do not. My head actually feels clearer and I'm more focused it seems. After some research, this could be attributed to increased catecholamine activity. To each his own... but that is my own experience.

Another point I would like to raise: from what I have read, your body will metabolize stored glycogen, fat, or amino acids (muscle) for energy. From these three primary energy sources, your body will take the path of least resistance and use glycogen first, fat second, and muscle third. Now I'm not saying your body is run exactly like a car and once one tank is empty *ding!* it moves on to the next. But from a general point of view, glycogen is mostly depleted (after eight hours of sleeping, glycogen in the liver is almost all metabolized), then low intensity aerobic exercise would cause the body to metabolize adipose tissue as energy.

With supplemental BCAA's (as previously mentioned by Phate: "BCAA's are catabolized in the skeletal muscle of the body (therefore bypassing the liver). Skeletal muscle contains enzymes that break down the BCAA's & utilize there energy) that fasted state cardio could be beneficial.

Whether or not BCAA cause any insulin response, I do not know (does anybody know the answer to this?) but point in case, raised insulin levels would blunt the effects of adipose oxidation.

Anyways, that's my two cents. I seem to be the Devil's Advocate here lol.

Correct