Clomid & Nolvadex (The Dark Side)

[Swifto]

Lastly I met my new endocrinologist and I had a talk with him.

Perhaps not all the things written can be taken into account, but none of those drugs are safe to be used.

That being said, it does not mean that you will get hurt but chances are there.

Look at all those references... I just went over 6 of them. Can they be all wrong? lol?

Use the lowest dose possible IMHO.

Toremifene and Rolxifene are less genotoxic and occular toxic than Tamoxifen is.

There is absolutely NOTHING that will raise endogenous testosterone like SERMs will. No herb, nothing.

PCT lasts 5-6 weeks usually. Thats a small price to pay after using androgens that also bring a host of side effects for anything upto 12-24 weeks (some longer cycles).

I find it amazing that many steroid user's will inject UGL AAS and not even know where they were made and in what conditions. Thats fine though. But using an FDA approved SERM with tens of years of safe use is a non runner.

AAS cause psycological and physilogical changes, elevated RBC, possible left ventriular atrophy, increased lipid values, hypertension, increased liver values etc...

SERM use for 5-6 weeks is a very small price to pay and articles like this do nothing at all positive.

Did I mention Eric's alteroir motives.

Resveratrol is also an anti-androgen in humans, doesnt just lower E2.

LJ100 may work in extreme doses.

Tribulas, well, you know thats garbage.

6-0x0 also raises estrogen and doesnt help gain LBM.

Fadogia agrestis may work, but the data is on rodents and supp companies claim an increase in total T os around 200ng/dl. 200ng/dl?! Thats f*ck all.

At the moment, there is no alternative to SERM use. Thats sensible doses and durations. If you still havent recovered after 10-12 weeks of SERM treatment, take a break and go again. If that doesnt work and HCG has been used at precise points, your on HRT.

[BJJ]

Use the lowest dose possible IMHO.

Toremifene and Rolxifene are less genotoxic and occular toxic than Tamoxifen is.

There is absolutely NOTHING that will raise endogenous testosterone like SERMs will. No herb, nothing.

PCT lasts 5-6 weeks usually. Thats a small price to pay after using androgens that also bring a host of side effects for anything upto 12-24 weeks (some longer cycles).

I find it amazing that many steroid user's will inject UGL AAS and not even know where they were made and in what conditions. Thats fine though. But using an FDA approved SERM with tens of years of safe use is a non runner.

AAS cause psycological and physilogical changes, elevated RBC, possible left ventriular atrophy, increased lipid values, hypertension, increased liver values etc...

SERM use for 5-6 weeks is a very small price to pay and articles like this do nothing at all positive.

Did I mention Eric's alteroir motives.

Resveratrol is also an anti-androgen in humans, doesnt just lower E2.

LJ100 may work in extreme doses.

Tribulas, well, you know thats garbage.

6-0x0 also raises estrogen and doesnt help gain LBM.

Fadogia agrestis may work, but the data is on rodents and supp companies claim an increase in total T os around 200ng/dl. 200ng/dl?! Thats f*ck all.

At the moment, there is no alternative to SERM use. Thats sensible doses and durations. If you still havent recovered after 10-12 weeks of SERM treatment, take a break and go again. If that doesnt work and HCG has been used at precise points, your on HRT.

Anything can be good if compared to other things which might be even worse, like aas.

But that is not the point.
I am not saying we do not have to use SERMs, what I want to point out is that even if taken for a short period of time, those drugs could lead to future health problems.

People must be aware of this.
The meaning of this thread is simply this but saying that the above reported abstract is garbage could lead some people to think they are totally safe in using SERMs.

The reality is different.
Though, to recover from an AAS cycle, presently there is no other solution.

[chrisx]

So what can we get from all this?

Bjj can you summarize your thoughts and recommended dosages?

Swift can you also do the same?

I'm sure a lot of people can benefit from this thread once we have some type of conclusion coming from 2 different vets

[terraj]

So what can we get from all this?

Bjj can you summarize your thoughts and recommended dosages?

Swift can you also do the same?

I'm sure a lot of people can benefit from this thread once we have some type of conclusion coming from 2 different vets

Bro, BJJ has done 2 cycles...and he would be the first to tell you that he is not a Vet.

[chrisx]

Bro, BJJ has done 2 cycles...and he would be the first to tell you that he is not a Vet.

Maybe I shouldn't have labeled him a vet, just looking for his thoughts and opinions summarized with some sort of conclusion.

[BJJ]

Maybe I shouldn't have labeled him a vet, just looking for his thoughts and opinions summarized with some sort of conclusion.

From my little experience and from what I have read so far in this regard, I would run a short cycle (8 weeks) with HCG during, in order to run the shortest PCT possible.

There is not other solution I believe since SERMs are fundamental to recover, unless one wants to try Naltrexone during cycle, but that is another topic.

[BJJ]

Bro, BJJ has done 2 cycles...and he would be the first to tell you that he is not a Vet.

In fact I was sleeping, otherwise as you stated, I would have been the first to underline that I am here to learn.

But thanks for pointing that out my friend.