This needs to be said about supplements. PLEASE READ BEFORE YOU WASTE YOUR MONEY!

[jimmyinkedup]

i am going to have to agree with jimmyinkedup.... its hard to beat good ol creatine monohydrate.....

Ironically enough i got into a debate a couple years ago with a rep here. My contention was that ethyl esterification would not result in increased absorption or prevent conversion to creatinine. While this contention of increased absorption had been know to work with some substances -the exact opposite held true with others. I suspected the latter would be the case witrh creatine. I had no proof...just opinion based on sound speculation.
Well it turns out i was apparently correct(dont get it twisted -not always the case). A study by Dr Tallon and Dr Child from the uk compared 2 cee products against regular old monohydrate. After exposure to stomach acids one cee product degraded to the point that only 75% of it was available for absorption. The other cee product degraded to the point that only 11% was available!
Regular monohydrate...held steady at 99% availability......

Other studies (i believe University of Tulsa) showed cee was no more effective..possibly less effective...and surely less effective due to lower doasges in most cee products (flawed logic - you need less because more is absorbed)....

If cee doesnt bloat you when regular creatine mono does...its probably just because you arent getting the amount of creatine that is effective due to degradation or underdosage.

[Tough92]

Ill make a better list for you

General Supplements that work

Multivitamin
Fish Oil
Creatine mono
Whey/Casian protein(if you count protein powder as a sup)
Pre-Workouts(for energy,pump,etc)

Basically everything else is shit such as 'test boosters" they are garbage and DO NOT WORK.If you a deficit in a certain vitamin or using a vitamin with a problem you have then fine but other than that everything is not needed.

Ironically enough i got into a debate a couple years ago with a rep here. My contention was that ethyl esterification would not result in increased absorption or prevent conversion to creatinine. While this contention of increased absorption had been know to work with some substances -the exact opposite held true with others. I suspected the latter would be the case witrh creatine. I had no proof...just opinion based on sound speculation.
Well it turns out i was apparently correct(dont get it twisted -not always the case). A study by Dr Tallon and Dr Child from the uk compared 2 cee products against regular old monohydrate. After exposure to stomach acids one cee product degraded to the point that only 75% of it was available for absorption. The other cee product degraded to the point that only 11% was available!
Regular monohydrate...held steady at 99% availability......

Other studies (i believe University of Tulsa) showed cee was no more effective..possibly less effective...and surely less effective due to lower doasges in most cee products (flawed logic - you need less because more is absorbed)....

If cee doesnt bloat you when regular creatine mono does...its probably just because you arent getting the amount of creatine that is effective due to degradation or underdosage.

whats your thoughts on creatine nitrate?Suppose to be better than mono

[jimmyinkedup]

Ill make a better list for you

General Supplements that work

Multivitamin
Fish Oil
Creatine mono
Whey/Casian protein(if you count protein powder as a sup)
Pre-Workouts(for energy,pump,etc)

Basically everything else is shit such as 'test boosters" they are garbage and DO NOT WORK.If you a deficit in a certain vitamin or using a vitamin with a problem you have then fine but other than that everything is not needed.

I like that list much better. Pre workouts - well this is my take anyway. Stay away from products that strictly provide a "pump" - its essentially uselss for building muscle. Look at other benfits the product offers - pump is meaningless to me or at least secondary. Hell sometimes its a detriment. One primary ingredient to avoid is glycerol in a preworkout. Its very decieving..it provides a "false pump". What glycerol does is pull water from muscle and other tissue into the blood. Its great to prevent dehydration if you are an endurance athelete...but if you are a bodybuilder you are pulling water and nutrients (creatine) OUT of muscle. Many products containing this claim "increased nutrient delivery" - just the opposite is true. The also claim "amazing muscle pump" - also not true...the pump is from glycerol concentrating in the space in between muscle fibers....not a muscle pump at all.

whats your thoughts on creatine nitrate?Suppose to be better than mono

Im very intruiged by nitrates and still looking into them. They def increase NO..but that doesnt do much for me....however there are other benfits they may provide that do. Nutrient partioning and some others.
To sum up..i dont know but it looks very promising. Im still forming an opinion..i suspect it will be at least as good as mono with likelyhood of other added benefits - again thats just preliminary speculation on my part.

[Tough92]

I like that list much better. Pre workouts - well this is my take anyway. Stay away from products that strictly provide a "pump" - its essentially uselss for building muscle. Look at other benfits the product offers - pump is meaningless to me or at least secondary. Hell sometimes its a detriment. One primary ingredient to avoid is glycerol in a preworkout. Its very decieving..it provides a "false pump". What glycerol does is pull water from muscle and other tissue into the blood. Its great to prevent dehydration if you are an endurance athelete...but if you are a bodybuilder you are pulling water and nutrients (creatine) OUT of muscle. Many products containing this claim "increased nutrient delivery" - just the opposite is true. The also claim "amazing muscle pump" - also not true...the pump is from glycerol concentrating in the space in between muscle fibers....not a muscle pump at all.





Im very intruiged by nitrates and still looking into them. They def increase NO..but that doesnt do much for me....however there are other benfits they may provide that do. Nutrient partioning and some others.
To sum up..i dont know but it looks very promising. Im still forming an opinion..i suspect it will be at least as good as mono with likelyhood of other added benefits - again thats just preliminary speculation on my part.

Wow did not know about the glycerol gonna check out which preworkouts contain it know,and yea I think preworkout are great for energy and focus and like you said muscle pumps do nothing for gaining muscle/strenth but hey who don't like having there muscles pumped up lol

And as for nitrates I haven't researched them yet but like you said they look legit.You seem knowlge of supps so may I ask wats AKG?I see nitrates are new but also see a lot of ingrdients that have AKG in front of there name such as AKG Arginine,Arginine seems to be the main NO ingrdient in supps but last time I checked studies showed that it was useless in creating a pump and pretty much a waste,so wats with this AKG stuff now

[jimmyinkedup]

Wow did not know about the glycerol gonna check out which preworkouts contain it know,and yea I think preworkout are great for energy and focus and like you said muscle pumps do nothing for gaining muscle/strenth but hey who don't like having there muscles pumped up lol

And as for nitrates I haven't researched them yet but like you said they look legit.You seem knowlge of supps so may I ask wats AKG?I see nitrates are new but also see a lot of ingrdients that have AKG in front of there name such as AKG Arginine,Arginine seems to be the main NO ingrdient in supps but last time I checked studies showed that it was useless in creating a pump and pretty much a waste,so wats with this AKG stuff now

alpha-ketoglutarate (alpha-ketoglutaric acid) - it play a role in the metabolism of nitric oxides and in krebs cycle. Most often you see it in the form of argenine alpa-ketoglutarate. The though was/is since argenine and akg play a role in nitric oxide metabolism the combo would increase nitric oxide. Thew fact is no real evidence shows that external supplementation shows any effect on NO levels in muscle ....and evidence also shows that increased NO doesnt result in increased protein synthesis or muscle strength.
Now nitrates DO apparently increase NO ...but who cares really? Its the other potential benfits of nitrate supplementation im looking into. As has been mentioned - pump is more a feeling than a true muscle building benefit. Thats why IMO look to other benfits in a pre workout first if you want to use one.
JMO...

[kaptainkeezy04]

Ill make a better list for you

General Supplements that work

Multivitamin
Fish Oil
Creatine mono
Whey/Casian protein(if you count protein powder as a sup)
Pre-Workouts(for energy,pump,etc)

Basically everything else is shit such as 'test boosters" they are garbage and DO NOT WORK.If you a deficit in a certain vitamin or using a vitamin with a problem you have then fine but other than that everything is not needed.




whats your thoughts on creatine nitrate?Suppose to be better than mono

that isn't a better list. i don't count protein powder as a supp. that should be a given. and preworkout stuff is garbage...how about stuff that works ALL DAY LONG?

[Tough92]

that isn't a better list. i don't count protein powder as a supp. that should be a given. and preworkout stuff is garbage...how about stuff that works ALL DAY LONG?

Wut do u mean all day long?how are preworkouts garbage?they give u energy and focus in the gym which def helps,there not needed but help

[kaptainkeezy04]

For instance, Hdrol works all day long. I guess I'll repost why I think they are not worth the money. here is what i said above...

I have only bothered with crap like NO Xplode once, and I thought it was the biggest rip off ever. First of all, You are supposed to have finished a meal approximately an hour before you lift weights, but NO Xplode is supposed to be taken on an empty stomach and 45 mins before your workout. So this means I would have to wait about 45 minutes after I eat to consume NO Xplode and then it would prob take about 10 mins to fully consume it, and then wait another 45 mins to workout? That's an hour and 40 mins! I'm 40 mins late for my workout by that point. Anyways, guys say they don't wanna put down their weights, and they get crazy pumps! Well this pump only lasts you for the hour you are working out, and a pump never really built muscle. Please don't waste your money on preworkout drinks, that only temporarily benefit you while in the gym.

If you really need energy, take b vitamins. I never really needed energy or motivation once i got in the gym, or a pump that lasts me an hour.

[jimmyinkedup]

For instance, Hdrol works all day long. I guess I'll repost why I think they are not worth the money. here is what i said above...

I have only bothered with crap like NO Xplode once, and I thought it was the biggest rip off ever. First of all, You are supposed to have finished a meal approximately an hour before you lift weights, but NO Xplode is supposed to be taken on an empty stomach and 45 mins before your workout. So this means I would have to wait about 45 minutes after I eat to consume NO Xplode and then it would prob take about 10 mins to fully consume it, and then wait another 45 mins to workout? That's an hour and 40 mins! I'm 40 mins late for my workout by that point. Anyways, guys say they don't wanna put down their weights, and they get crazy pumps! Well this pump only lasts you for the hour you are working out, and a pump never really built muscle. Please don't waste your money on preworkout drinks, that only temporarily benefit you while in the gym.

If you really need energy, take b vitamins. I never really needed energy or motivation once i got in the gym, or a pump that lasts me an hour.

I primarily agree with you based on NO supps alone. I have to admit ive used eca pre workout for energy on and off for years. I do think preworkouts are overhyped. Im am intruiged by some that contain creatine nitrate and other nitrates not for pump but for other potential benfits. I also see nothing wrong with an energy boost pre workout. I agree much of that is mental and being motivated and in the right mindset is first and foremost. I also see nothing wrong with something that benfits you soley in the gym. Hell the better the workout - the better the result. I think preworkouts need to be seen for what they are ...and looked at for what they will and will not do. Most at this point simply provide energy boost. Some contain Beta Alanine and/or Citruline malate - we could get into every ingredient and what it may of may not do. Suffice it to say they are overhyped and thus expectations are skewed - as are outrageous claims of benfits recieved due to placebo effect.
Nitrates however MAY actually provide some ergogenic benfit...jury is still out on that for me.
If you want supp that benfit you all the time ...why are you taking useless ones like cla (trans fat - proven useless) , zma (do i even have to?) , chromium (uselss in non diabetics). Im not being smart a$$ - i do think if you are open to it i can make some suggestions and you can give them a try - and replace some of these with other things that may actually provide benfits. If you want tell me what you are taking these for....ill be happy to provide data to support my above contentions and offer some potentially helpful suggestions. Not that im the be all end all here - far from it - im always learning in this area. Maybe you can enligthen me on one of these 3 supps.

[kaptainkeezy04]

I primarily agree with you based on NO supps alone. I have to admit ive used eca pre workout for energy on and off for years. I do think preworkouts are overhyped. Im am intruiged by some that contain creatine nitrate and other nitrates not for pump but for other potential benfits. I also see nothing wrong with an energy boost pre workout. I agree much of that is mental and being motivated and in the right mindset is first and foremost. I also see nothing wrong with something that benfits you soley in the gym. Hell the better the workout - the better the result. I think preworkouts need to be seen for what they are ...and looked at for what they will and will not do. Most at this point simply provide energy boost. Some contain Beta Alanine and/or Citruline malate - we could get into every ingredient and what it may of may not do. Suffice it to say they are overhyped and thus expectations are skewed - as are outrageous claims of benfits recieved due to placebo effect.
Nitrates however MAY actually provide some ergogenic benfit...jury is still out on that for me.
If you want supp that benfit you all the time ...why are you taking useless ones like cla (trans fat - proven useless) , zma (do i even have to?) , chromium (uselss in non diabetics). Im not being smart a$$ - i do think if you are open to it i can make some suggestions and you can give them a try - and replace some of these with other things that may actually provide benfits. If you want tell me what you are taking these for....ill be happy to provide data to support my above contentions and offer some potentially helpful suggestions. Not that im the be all end all here - far from it - im always learning in this area. Maybe you can enligthen me on one of these 3 supps.

Well ECA is a vasoconstrictor, meaning it decreases bloodflow, so I would not recommend taking that pre workout, but it would be good throughout the day for weight loss/energy. I have seen studies that show CLA to be effective, so please show me yours which say it isn't. ZMA --I've seen studies that show an increase in free testosterone with use of this supplement, and I get the best sleep i've ever had on this stuff, and i wake up feeling refreshed every morning. If it costs me 30 bucks a bottle for a month supply of great sleep, it is worth it alone to me. I've also seen studies that show chromium picolinate to be effective, so please show me yours which show it isn't. As far as the NO supps go, my main problem with that stuff is the fact that you are supposed to wait to take it on an empty stomach, and then wait 45 minutes before your workout after consuming it. That's a solid hour and 40 minutes since your last meal, which means you are 40 mins late for your workout, especially if you are on a strict meal schedule that involves eating every 2-3 hours.

[jimmyinkedup]

For instance, Hdrol works all day long. I guess I'll repost why I think they are not worth the money. here is what i said above...

I have only bothered with crap like NO Xplode once, and I thought it was the biggest rip off ever. First of all, You are supposed to have finished a meal approximately an hour before you lift weights, but NO Xplode is supposed to be taken on an empty stomach and 45 mins before your workout. So this means I would have to wait about 45 minutes after I eat to consume NO Xplode and then it would prob take about 10 mins to fully consume it, and then wait another 45 mins to workout? That's an hour and 40 mins! I'm 40 mins late for my workout by that point. Anyways, guys say they don't wanna put down their weights, and they get crazy pumps! Well this pump only lasts you for the hour you are working out, and a pump never really built muscle. Please don't waste your money on preworkout drinks, that only temporarily benefit you while in the gym.

If you really need energy, take b vitamins. I never really needed energy or motivation once i got in the gym, or a pump that lasts me an hour.

As far as NO supps i think we are in agreement. Increasing NO has not been shown in any way to increase muscle and making ANY dietary sacrifices to use a supplement IMO is never prudent.
Also of note as vasodialation has shown no improvement in muscle growth in my experience vasoconstriction (eca) has shown no adverse impact on it either. I do,however, see the practicality in your statement regarding eca preworkout .
ECA has served me well over the years in several ways. I suggest people use it prudently and investigate benefits vs side effects and make a personal determination if its use is prudent for them.
As i said - i think we are basically in agreement regarding supplements. I think diet, training and rest should ALWAYS be first priority and after those are in order - good prudent supplementation has its smaller place.

[jimmyinkedup]

I bumped this thread because this was an interesting point that got me thinking. Thanks to kaptain for bringing it up. Ive used ECA for years...and never thought it impaired my performance. I always get a pump working out (which would show vasoconstriction was at very least limited). I decided to do some research. Found some intresting info . The overall gist is while ephedrine is a vasoconstrictor this effect is not only negated but reversed during exercise.
Essentially what occurs is this. While exercising a1 receptors (stimulation results in vascoconstriction) are blocked. b2 receptors take over - resulting in vasodialation. Both are effected by ephedrine but during exercise this is what occurs.
So for those concerned about vasoconstriction - dont be. As far as pump - well its highly overated as far as muscle buildinbg goes (at times i think it impairs my workouts)and aparently,according to studies, claims of "increased nutrirnt delivery" from increased NO dont translate to more muscle anyway, but ephedrine will not impair and probably aid in achieveing a pump. My main concern over vasoconstriction during exercise would be high blood pressure...but aparently that wont occur since the above is what takes place. If anything vasodialation would occur resulting in lowering of blood pressure.

Also of note aprently plain old aspirin (as in the eca stack) raises NO levels as well:

"FAU researchers conducted a randomized trial in patients at high risk of a first heart attack or stroke and assigned them to different doses of aspirin for 12 weeks. All doses produced highly significant beneficial effects on two important and well documented markers of nitric oxide formation."*


*Usual Doses of Aspirin Increase Nitric Acid Formation in Humans" is published in the November 2009 issue of Circulation, the official journal of the American Heart Association.


So good old eca stack may be a damn good pre work out that truely raises NO -if that is your goal. Mine in using it is simply energy. Nice to know however no dangers of drmatically increased blood presuure due to positive effect of vasodialation this stack illicits.