This needs to be said about supplements. PLEASE READ BEFORE YOU WASTE YOUR MONEY!

[kaptainkeezy04]

For instance, Hdrol works all day long. I guess I'll repost why I think they are not worth the money. here is what i said above...

I have only bothered with crap like NO Xplode once, and I thought it was the biggest rip off ever. First of all, You are supposed to have finished a meal approximately an hour before you lift weights, but NO Xplode is supposed to be taken on an empty stomach and 45 mins before your workout. So this means I would have to wait about 45 minutes after I eat to consume NO Xplode and then it would prob take about 10 mins to fully consume it, and then wait another 45 mins to workout? That's an hour and 40 mins! I'm 40 mins late for my workout by that point. Anyways, guys say they don't wanna put down their weights, and they get crazy pumps! Well this pump only lasts you for the hour you are working out, and a pump never really built muscle. Please don't waste your money on preworkout drinks, that only temporarily benefit you while in the gym.

If you really need energy, take b vitamins. I never really needed energy or motivation once i got in the gym, or a pump that lasts me an hour.

[jimmyinkedup]

For instance, Hdrol works all day long. I guess I'll repost why I think they are not worth the money. here is what i said above...

I have only bothered with crap like NO Xplode once, and I thought it was the biggest rip off ever. First of all, You are supposed to have finished a meal approximately an hour before you lift weights, but NO Xplode is supposed to be taken on an empty stomach and 45 mins before your workout. So this means I would have to wait about 45 minutes after I eat to consume NO Xplode and then it would prob take about 10 mins to fully consume it, and then wait another 45 mins to workout? That's an hour and 40 mins! I'm 40 mins late for my workout by that point. Anyways, guys say they don't wanna put down their weights, and they get crazy pumps! Well this pump only lasts you for the hour you are working out, and a pump never really built muscle. Please don't waste your money on preworkout drinks, that only temporarily benefit you while in the gym.

If you really need energy, take b vitamins. I never really needed energy or motivation once i got in the gym, or a pump that lasts me an hour.

I primarily agree with you based on NO supps alone. I have to admit ive used eca pre workout for energy on and off for years. I do think preworkouts are overhyped. Im am intruiged by some that contain creatine nitrate and other nitrates not for pump but for other potential benfits. I also see nothing wrong with an energy boost pre workout. I agree much of that is mental and being motivated and in the right mindset is first and foremost. I also see nothing wrong with something that benfits you soley in the gym. Hell the better the workout - the better the result. I think preworkouts need to be seen for what they are ...and looked at for what they will and will not do. Most at this point simply provide energy boost. Some contain Beta Alanine and/or Citruline malate - we could get into every ingredient and what it may of may not do. Suffice it to say they are overhyped and thus expectations are skewed - as are outrageous claims of benfits recieved due to placebo effect.
Nitrates however MAY actually provide some ergogenic benfit...jury is still out on that for me.
If you want supp that benfit you all the time ...why are you taking useless ones like cla (trans fat - proven useless) , zma (do i even have to?) , chromium (uselss in non diabetics). Im not being smart a$$ - i do think if you are open to it i can make some suggestions and you can give them a try - and replace some of these with other things that may actually provide benfits. If you want tell me what you are taking these for....ill be happy to provide data to support my above contentions and offer some potentially helpful suggestions. Not that im the be all end all here - far from it - im always learning in this area. Maybe you can enligthen me on one of these 3 supps.

[kaptainkeezy04]

I primarily agree with you based on NO supps alone. I have to admit ive used eca pre workout for energy on and off for years. I do think preworkouts are overhyped. Im am intruiged by some that contain creatine nitrate and other nitrates not for pump but for other potential benfits. I also see nothing wrong with an energy boost pre workout. I agree much of that is mental and being motivated and in the right mindset is first and foremost. I also see nothing wrong with something that benfits you soley in the gym. Hell the better the workout - the better the result. I think preworkouts need to be seen for what they are ...and looked at for what they will and will not do. Most at this point simply provide energy boost. Some contain Beta Alanine and/or Citruline malate - we could get into every ingredient and what it may of may not do. Suffice it to say they are overhyped and thus expectations are skewed - as are outrageous claims of benfits recieved due to placebo effect.
Nitrates however MAY actually provide some ergogenic benfit...jury is still out on that for me.
If you want supp that benfit you all the time ...why are you taking useless ones like cla (trans fat - proven useless) , zma (do i even have to?) , chromium (uselss in non diabetics). Im not being smart a$$ - i do think if you are open to it i can make some suggestions and you can give them a try - and replace some of these with other things that may actually provide benfits. If you want tell me what you are taking these for....ill be happy to provide data to support my above contentions and offer some potentially helpful suggestions. Not that im the be all end all here - far from it - im always learning in this area. Maybe you can enligthen me on one of these 3 supps.

Well ECA is a vasoconstrictor, meaning it decreases bloodflow, so I would not recommend taking that pre workout, but it would be good throughout the day for weight loss/energy. I have seen studies that show CLA to be effective, so please show me yours which say it isn't. ZMA --I've seen studies that show an increase in free testosterone with use of this supplement, and I get the best sleep i've ever had on this stuff, and i wake up feeling refreshed every morning. If it costs me 30 bucks a bottle for a month supply of great sleep, it is worth it alone to me. I've also seen studies that show chromium picolinate to be effective, so please show me yours which show it isn't. As far as the NO supps go, my main problem with that stuff is the fact that you are supposed to wait to take it on an empty stomach, and then wait 45 minutes before your workout after consuming it. That's a solid hour and 40 minutes since your last meal, which means you are 40 mins late for your workout, especially if you are on a strict meal schedule that involves eating every 2-3 hours.

[jimmyinkedup]

Well ECA is a vasoconstrictor, meaning it decreases bloodflow, so I would not recommend taking that pre workout, but it would be good throughout the day for weight loss/energy. I have seen studies that show CLA to be effective, so please show me yours which say it isn't. ZMA --I've seen studies that show an increase in free testosterone with use of this supplement, and I get the best sleep i've ever had on this stuff, and i wake up feeling refreshed every morning. If it costs me 30 bucks a bottle for a month supply of great sleep, it is worth it alone to me. I've also seen studies that show chromium picolinate to be effective, so please show me yours which show it isn't. As far as the NO supps go, my main problem with that stuff is the fact that you are supposed to wait to take it on an empty stomach, and then wait 45 minutes before your workout after consuming it. That's a solid hour and 40 minutes since your last meal, which means you are 40 mins late for your workout, especially if you are on a strict meal schedule that involves eating every 2-3 hours.

CLA -

If you are a diabetic it can increase insulin sensativity...if not it DECREASES insulin sensativity:

At Uppsala University (Diabetologica v. 47, 2004) obese men were given 3.4 g of CLA for 12 weeks. They came down with hyperproinsulinaenemia. Translation: their insulin sensitivity was impaired. This condition is a prelude to both diabetes and cardiovascular disease. The authors concluded, “The use of weight loss supplements containing this fatty acid is worrying.” That’s an understatement certainly.

Uppsala University followed up this study (Am. J. Clin. Nutr. v. 80, 2004). They gave obese men 3 g of CLA for 12 weeks. Insulin sensitivity decreased by 15%. There were no measurable changes in body composition whatsoever. Lipid peroxidation increased as well which means you have more chance of getting cardiovascular disease. They promise to do similar studies in women.

University of Reading (Am. J. Clin Nutr. v. 80, 2004) Doctors gave healthy men CLA for eight weeks and raised their total cholesterol as well as their triglyceride levels.
A few more:
J. Salas-Salvadó et al., “Conjugated Linoleic Acid Intake In Humans : A Systematic Review Focusing on Its Effect on Body Composition, Glucose and Lipid Metabolism,” Critical Reviews in Food Science and Nutrition, 46, 2006, p. 479
content:there is not enough evidence to show that conjugated linoleic acid has an effect on weight and body composition in humans.” It was also found to have a negative effect on cholesterol.
Craig Pinkoski et al., “The Effects of Conjugated Linoleic Acid Supplementation during Resistance Training,” Medicine and Science in Sports & Exercise, 2006, p. 347
content:during weight training “CLA has small effects for decreasing fat mass and increasing lean tissue mass… the clinical significance is most likely quite small. The effect of CLA on fat and lean tissue mass was not supported in our crossover study.”

Ive never heard of anyone getting any dramatic effect from this. The effects on cholestrol & triglyceride levels are not surprising..its a trans fat. Its not rcognized as such nutritionally because trans linkages in a conjugated system are not required to be classified as such under nutritional reguilations....but it is.

suggestion:ala (esp in some forms) and an omega 3,6,9 (or at least fish oil)would prob do better..without adverse effects on cholesterol and trigycerides and plus illict a positive effect on insulin sensativity and inflamatory response. Also if you added ala...you would actually get the benfit i belive you are seeking with chromium..only ala works.
JMO

[jimmyinkedup]

Well ECA is a vasoconstrictor, meaning it decreases bloodflow, so I would not recommend taking that pre workout, but it would be good throughout the day for weight loss/energy. I have seen studies that show CLA to be effective, so please show me yours which say it isn't. ZMA --I've seen studies that show an increase in free testosterone with use of this supplement, and I get the best sleep i've ever had on this stuff, and i wake up feeling refreshed every morning. If it costs me 30 bucks a bottle for a month supply of great sleep, it is worth it alone to me. I've also seen studies that show chromium picolinate to be effective, so please show me yours which show it isn't. As far as the NO supps go, my main problem with that stuff is the fact that you are supposed to wait to take it on an empty stomach, and then wait 45 minutes before your workout after consuming it. That's a solid hour and 40 minutes since your last meal, which means you are 40 mins late for your workout, especially if you are on a strict meal schedule that involves eating every 2-3 hours.

ZMA:
Testoterone effects (lack therof):

http://www.ergo-log.com/zma.html
and this:


Effects of Zinc Magnesium Aspartate (ZMA) Supplementation on Training Adaptations and Markers of Anabolism and Catabolism


Colin D Wilborn,1 Chad M Kerksick,1 Bill I Campbell,1 Lem W Taylor,1 Brandon M Marcello,1 Christopher J Rasmussen,1 Mike C Greenwood,1 Anthony Almada,2 and Richard B Kreider1

1Exercise & Sport Nutrition Lab, Baylor University, Waco, TX
2IMAGINutrition, Laguna Nigel, CA
Corresponding author.
Richard B Kreider: [email protected]
Received December 18, 2004; Accepted December 28, 2004.
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
Other Sectionsâ–¼
Abstract
This study examined whether supplementing the diet with a commercial supplement containing zinc magnesium aspartate (ZMA) during training affects zinc and magnesium status, anabolic and catabolic hormone profiles, and/or training adaptations. Forty-two resistance trained males (27 � 9 yrs; 178 � 8 cm, 85 � 15 kg, 18.6 � 6% body fat) were matched according to fat free mass and randomly assigned to ingest in a double blind manner either a dextrose placebo (P) or ZMA 30�60 minutes prior to going to sleep during 8-weeks of standardized resistance-training. Subjects completed testing sessions at 0, 4, and 8 weeks that included body composition assessment as determined by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry, 1-RM and muscular endurance tests on the bench and leg press, a Wingate anaerobic power test, and blood analysis to assess anabolic/catabolic status as well as markers of health. Data were analyzed using repeated measures ANOVA. Results indicated that ZMA supplementation non-significantly increased serum zinc levels by 11 � 17% (p = 0.12). However, no significant differences were observed between groups in anabolic or catabolic hormone status, body composition, 1-RM bench press and leg press, upper or lower body muscular endurance, or cycling anaerobic capacity. Results indicate that ZMA supplementation during training does not appear to enhance training adaptations in resistance trained populations.
Full paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129161/

and this:

Eur J Clin Nutr. 2009 Jan;63(1):65-70. Epub 2007 Sep 19.

Serum testosterone and urinary excretion of steroid hormone metabolites after administration of a high-dose zinc supplement.

Koehler K, Parr MK, Geyer H, Mester J, Sch�nzer W.

Institute of Biochemistry, German Research Centre of Elite Sport, German Sport University Cologne, Cologne, Germany. [email protected]
Abstract
OBJECTIVES: To investigate whether the administration of the zinc-containing nutritional supplement ZMA causes an increase of serum testosterone levels, which is an often claimed effect in advertising for such products; to monitor the urinary excretion of testosterone and selected steroid hormone metabolites to detect potential changes in the excretion patterns of ZMA users.

SUBJECTS: Fourteen healthy, regularly exercising men aged 22-33 years with a baseline zinc intake between 11.9 and 23.2 mg day(-1) prior to the study.

RESULTS: Supplementation of ZMA significantly increased serum zinc (P=0.031) and urinary zinc excretion (P=0.035). Urinary pH (P=0.011) and urine flow (P=0.045) were also elevated in the subjects using ZMA. No significant changes in serum total and serum free testosterone were observed in response to ZMA use. Also, the urinary excretion pattern of testosterone metabolites was not significantly altered in ZMA users.

CONCLUSIONS: The present data suggest that the use of ZMA has no significant effects regarding serum testosterone levels and the metabolism of testosterone in subjects who consume a zinc-sufficient diet.
PMID: 17882141 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

The only study that showed zma had positive effect on test has been dismissed for several reasons. It was funded by Victor Conte the "discoverer" of this supplement and it was falsely reported to be published in a very respected journal to lend credibilty-that report was a lie. These are 2 of sevral reasons its BS.
Suggestion:If zma helps you sleep in all likelyhoodit is a resulty of magnesium defficiency (this result in low levels of melatonin)or placebo. If you arr in fact magnesium defficient...try taking magnesium chelate ...about $4 for a 90 day supply.
The likelyhood of being zinc or magnesium defficient is low. Sources for zinc are proteins and nuts. Sources for magnesium are whole grains and nut. Plus factor in the content in your multi. Defficiency not likely - however as i suggested other cheaper just as effective options if in fact you are.
JMO.

[jimmyinkedup]

Well ECA is a vasoconstrictor, meaning it decreases bloodflow, so I would not recommend taking that pre workout, but it would be good throughout the day for weight loss/energy. I have seen studies that show CLA to be effective, so please show me yours which say it isn't. ZMA --I've seen studies that show an increase in free testosterone with use of this supplement, and I get the best sleep i've ever had on this stuff, and i wake up feeling refreshed every morning. If it costs me 30 bucks a bottle for a month supply of great sleep, it is worth it alone to me. I've also seen studies that show chromium picolinate to be effective, so please show me yours which show it isn't. As far as the NO supps go, my main problem with that stuff is the fact that you are supposed to wait to take it on an empty stomach, and then wait 45 minutes before your workout after consuming it. That's a solid hour and 40 minutes since your last meal, which means you are 40 mins late for your workout, especially if you are on a strict meal schedule that involves eating every 2-3 hours.

Chromium:

Resistive training and chromium picolinate: effects on inositols and liver and kidney functions in older adults.
Thirty-two nondiabetic subjects, age 62 +/- 4 y, performed RT twice weekly for 12 wk and consumed either 924 ug Cr/d as Cr-pic (n = 17) or a placebo (n = 15). Whole-body strength increased in all subjects by 20 % (CR101).
Effects of resistive training and chromium picolinate on body composition and skeletal muscle size in older women.
Percent body fat and fat-free mass were unchanged with RT in these weight-stable women, independent of Cr-pic supplementation. Type I and type II muscle fiber areas of the m. vastus lateralis were not changed over time and were not influenced by Cr-pic supplementation (CR102).
Effect of chromium supplementation and exercise on body composition, resting metabolic rate and selected biochemical parameters in moderately obese women following an exercise program.
Twelve weeks of 400 microg/day of chromium as a CP supplement did not significantly affect body composition, RMR, plasma glucose, serum insulin, plasma glucagon, serum C-peptide and serum lipid concentrations or iron and zinc indices in moderately obese women placed on an exercise program. The changes in serum total cholesterol levels and TIBC were a result of the exercise program (CR103).
The effect of chromium picolinate on muscular strength and body composition in women athletes.
Fifteen women softball athletes were randomly divided into 2 groups, the chromium treatment group (n = 8) and the placebo control group (n = 7).
The CrPic supplementation consisted of a 500 ug dosage taken once per day. All participants trained 3 times per week with 2-3 sets of 8-12 repetitions at 80% of 1 repetition maximum (1RM) using variable resistance machines and free weights. No significant (p < 0.05) differences in muscular strength or body composition were found after 6 weeks of resistance training (CR104).
Effects of carbohydrate and chromium ingestion during intermittent high-intensity exercise to fatigue.
The data confirm an ergogenic benefit of ingesting CHO during exercise designed to imitate sports like basketball, soccer, and hockey, but do not support the hypothesis that the addition of Cr would enhance this effect (CR105).
Effect of resistance training with or without chromium picolinate supplementation on glucose metabolism in older men and women.
The effect of 12 weeks of resistance training (RT) with or without chromium picolinate (Cr-pic) supplementation on glucose tolerance was assessed in moderately overweight older men and women (age, 62 +/- 4 years; body mass index , 29.1 +/- 2.5 kg/m2).
High-dose Cr-pic supplementation had no effect on any measure of glucose metabolism during RT (CR106).
[b]Effects of resistance training and chromium picolinate on body composition and skeletal muscle in older men.
18 men (age range 56-69 yr). The men were randomly assigned (double-blind) to groups (n = 9) that consumed either 17.8 micromol Cr/day (924 microg Cr/day) as CrPic or a low-Cr placebo for 12 wk while participating twice weekly in a high-intensity RT program.
High-dose CrPic supplementation did not enhance muscle size, strength, or power development or lean body mass accretion in older men during a RT program, which had significant, independent effects on these measurements (CR107).
Chromium picolinate effects on body composition and muscular performance in wrestlers.
Chromium picolinate supplementation coupled with a typical preseason training program does not enhance body composition or performance variables beyond improvements seen with training alone (CR108).
Chromium and exercise training: effect on obese women.
We conclude that high levels of chromium picolinate supplementation are contraindicated for weight loss in young, obese women (CR109).
Chromium supplementation and resistance training: effects on body composition, strength, and trace element status of men.
The effects of 8 wk of daily chromium supplementation (3.3-3.5 mumol as chromium chloride or chromium picolinate) or placebo (0.1 mumol Cr) and weight training were examined in 36 men in a double-blind design.
Routine chromium supplementation has no beneficial effects on body- composition change or strength gain in men (CR110).
Effects of chromium picolinate on body composition.
The study employed a double-blind, placebo-controlled protocol and lasted for 16 weeks.
400 micrograms chromium picolinate or a placebo were distributed to healthy, active-duty Navy personnel (79 men, 16 women).
chromium picolinate was ineffective in enhancing body fat reduction in this group (CR111).
Effects of chromium picolinate supplementation on body composition, strength, and urinary chromium loss in football players.
Chromium picolinate supplementation was ineffective in bringing about changes in body composition or strength during a program of intensive weight-lifting training (CR112).
Only the last study shows an effect from chromium picolinate on body weight in women but not men. Did this mean muscle or fat.........?
Effects of chromium picolinate on beginning weight training students.
Changes in body weight (BW), a sum of three body circumferences (sigma C), a sum of three skinfolds (sigma SF), and the one-repetition maximum (1RM) for the squat (SQ) and bench press (BP) were examined in 59 college-age students (37 males [M], 22 females [F]) over a 12-week weight lifting program. Using a double-blind protocol, half of the students were given 200 micrograms/day chromium (Cr) in the form of chromium picolinate (CrPic) while the other half received a placebo (P).
The only significant treatment effect found was due to the F-CrPic group gaining more BW (p = 0.0048) than the other three groups. It was concluded that CrPic supplementation had a greater effect on the females than on the males (CR113).




REFERENCES

CR101)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...101&query_hl=1
CR102)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...613&query_hl=1
CR103)http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/20/4/293
CR104)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...399&query_hl=1
CR105)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...374&query_hl=1
CR106)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...851&query_hl=1
CR107)http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/86/1/29
CR108)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...607&query_hl=1
CR109)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...955&query_hl=1
CR110)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...693&query_hl=1
CR111)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...075&query_hl=1
CR112)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...959&query_hl=1
CR113)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...504&query_hl=1

Chromium does play a role in our body as far as insulin sensativity - that doesnt mean more improves this The bottom line is this as shown above. Like many supps, this was pushed on anecdotal evidence.

Suggestion: Kill 2 birds with one stone. Suppelment with ala in lieu of cla and chromium. Use Regualr ALA or na-r-ala. R-ala is touted for better ala availibity than regular ala howevr due to its degradation with exposure to light it is unlikely that through manufacture , packaging shipping etc you will recieve it without some degradation taking place.

[jimmyinkedup]

For instance, Hdrol works all day long. I guess I'll repost why I think they are not worth the money. here is what i said above...

I have only bothered with crap like NO Xplode once, and I thought it was the biggest rip off ever. First of all, You are supposed to have finished a meal approximately an hour before you lift weights, but NO Xplode is supposed to be taken on an empty stomach and 45 mins before your workout. So this means I would have to wait about 45 minutes after I eat to consume NO Xplode and then it would prob take about 10 mins to fully consume it, and then wait another 45 mins to workout? That's an hour and 40 mins! I'm 40 mins late for my workout by that point. Anyways, guys say they don't wanna put down their weights, and they get crazy pumps! Well this pump only lasts you for the hour you are working out, and a pump never really built muscle. Please don't waste your money on preworkout drinks, that only temporarily benefit you while in the gym.

If you really need energy, take b vitamins. I never really needed energy or motivation once i got in the gym, or a pump that lasts me an hour.

As far as NO supps i think we are in agreement. Increasing NO has not been shown in any way to increase muscle and making ANY dietary sacrifices to use a supplement IMO is never prudent.
Also of note as vasodialation has shown no improvement in muscle growth in my experience vasoconstriction (eca) has shown no adverse impact on it either. I do,however, see the practicality in your statement regarding eca preworkout .
ECA has served me well over the years in several ways. I suggest people use it prudently and investigate benefits vs side effects and make a personal determination if its use is prudent for them.
As i said - i think we are basically in agreement regarding supplements. I think diet, training and rest should ALWAYS be first priority and after those are in order - good prudent supplementation has its smaller place.

[jimmyinkedup]

I bumped this thread because this was an interesting point that got me thinking. Thanks to kaptain for bringing it up. Ive used ECA for years...and never thought it impaired my performance. I always get a pump working out (which would show vasoconstriction was at very least limited). I decided to do some research. Found some intresting info . The overall gist is while ephedrine is a vasoconstrictor this effect is not only negated but reversed during exercise.
Essentially what occurs is this. While exercising a1 receptors (stimulation results in vascoconstriction) are blocked. b2 receptors take over - resulting in vasodialation. Both are effected by ephedrine but during exercise this is what occurs.
So for those concerned about vasoconstriction - dont be. As far as pump - well its highly overated as far as muscle buildinbg goes (at times i think it impairs my workouts)and aparently,according to studies, claims of "increased nutrirnt delivery" from increased NO dont translate to more muscle anyway, but ephedrine will not impair and probably aid in achieveing a pump. My main concern over vasoconstriction during exercise would be high blood pressure...but aparently that wont occur since the above is what takes place. If anything vasodialation would occur resulting in lowering of blood pressure.

Also of note aprently plain old aspirin (as in the eca stack) raises NO levels as well:

"FAU researchers conducted a randomized trial in patients at high risk of a first heart attack or stroke and assigned them to different doses of aspirin for 12 weeks. All doses produced highly significant beneficial effects on two important and well documented markers of nitric oxide formation."*


*Usual Doses of Aspirin Increase Nitric Acid Formation in Humans" is published in the November 2009 issue of Circulation, the official journal of the American Heart Association.


So good old eca stack may be a damn good pre work out that truely raises NO -if that is your goal. Mine in using it is simply energy. Nice to know however no dangers of drmatically increased blood presuure due to positive effect of vasodialation this stack illicits.