*What's life about*

[thegodfather]

We're still trying to dissect the universe itself, and discover things such as the Higgs-Boson, what happened prior to the big bang, if alternate universes exist (in theory, and mathematically they are completely plausible), so I don't think anyone is stating that science has all the answers that religion doesn't, and vice versa. Some people put their understanding of the world into faith and the writings of a book 5,000 years old(we're not gonna fu**ing debate that the bible is 5,000 years old are we?). I believe that you must make just as many assumptions in reading the bible, as you would with scientific study. You have to assume a lot of things, decide whether to interpret a verse literally or allegorically, and then make some other rather wild and illogical assumptions.

I am a spiritual person, I believe in a creator, a God, I just do not however, subscribe to one system of belief which claims to know this God, his thoughts, and to have communicated with him. Even if we do not bring up carbon dating, we do know that societies which pre-dated the current monotheistic societies today, there were plenty of polytheistic societies, and prior to that cave dwelling humans appear to have worshiped livestock, the wind, the sun, and just about anything else in front of them.

I have had many theories, that the bible was an early form of social control prior to the creation of modern day societies and police forces. That it is an attempt to explain a world that the people around it did not understand. Ultimately though, I also believe that nothing so complex as human life, the cell, DNA, etc, could come together by chance, without an intelligent designer, I just reserve naming who/what that designer is called.

The very idea that an entire population of people who were not exposed to Christianity over the course of human history will have no chance at this eternal life in heaven that is being espoused seems to be counter intuitive on its face. What about the many millions of humans who lived prior to the rise of Christianity, they did not have the chance to hear the word, so what is to become of their souls? Surely they cannot make a rational choice in an afterlife as they already know the outcome, that there is a God. And that is what all of this is premised on, the fact that humans do not know with certainty what happens when another human dies, and since it is the be all end all of end games, no one who is dead can come back and tell the rest of us if he's 'real' or not. So, the idea of faith is espoused, and that people must accept things not only absent proof, but that they must accept things and NEVER question the word. Well, I would hate to think where the human civilization would be today if no one ever dared to question things.

You are all arguing over something however, which completely misses the point of the thread. It did not ask "Where did life come from," but rather what life means to you.

So, to me, life is about treating people with kindness, doing your part to contribute to your society, and trying to leave ones mark in history. Life should be about enjoying ones self, while not hurting another person. While not easy, it is possible to have a life that is virtuous, just, and moral, without the teachings of the word. Some question this, but I digress, when someone takes something from you which doesnt belong to them, it hurts right? When someone assaults you, it hurts? When someone murders a loved one, it hurts? These are things which hurt humans, they can FEEL that these things are wrong, so it is quite likely humans arrived at the conclusions of morality based on neurochemical reactions in the brain, in essence, morals are a positive or negative reaction to a particular stimuli.

Anyway, I do enjoy these conversations, and I could talk about them for days, but they are ultimately unwinnable with people who refuse to be open minded enough to consider the rationality of their own system of beliefs, and therefore I'd rather spend time debating the US Constitution, the most profound document in human history next to the bible, and only 2600 words long. It is that document afterall, that allows those of you with staunch religious beliefs to espouse them so heavily. So, in the end, be kind to one another, treat one another with respect, and just attempt to live the best life that you can, the best way that you know how.

[marcus300]

405, flagg great discussion guys and I can't comment yet due to reading everything lol - going to put something together for you guys to try and answer for me.

405, come on no one is dishonouring gods word, why do say that 405 when claims regarding the bible stand up against it with prove. We are only discussing this and don't even think I am on the science side of things, like ive said I am on the fence and find both sides interesting. Please don't turn the thread into people suddenly dishonouring god because everyone has been respectful with each other and their beliefs. Keep with on board because this thread needs you and you can also shine more light on it.

All we are doing is asking questions here, that's all we are not trying to convert anyone or have a go at the opposite side, lets carry on debating, asking questions and see where we end up.

Thanks every for all the material posted its making great reading

[--->>405<<---]

As a christian man i feel a responsibility to make sure Gods word is respected and honored wherever i am involved. I encourage sincere questioning and enjoy sharing my faith.

It has often been said there are no stupid questions. I am here to say that is not the case. The question posed by hazard about the heimlich maneuver definitely qualified. It was pompous, arrogant, presumptuous, and condescending. It was reflective of an attitude i will not tolerate where Gods word is involved.

While i can t enforce conversations about Gods word being handled properly, i can end my involvement. To an extent Gods word can be questioned and debated on, but this can only go on for so long before it brings dishonor to His word.

I encourage all of u to think about it, and question it,, but do it with the right heart. If any of u have legitimate and sincere questions i will be the first to try to answer them, but i will not stand for Gods word to be made a mockery, nor will i allow negative aspersions to be cast on Christians where i continue to engage.

The word of God is just that, it is not man made science that can be argued and debated into the ground. There must come a time when a line is drawn, and i am drawing that line.

[Hazard]

Christianity is the same as every other religion. It's no different. There's a creator, a divine place to go upon death, you must follow the word. There have been 1000 religions in time so who's to say Christianity, Islam, or any other is correct? Only one can be correct at best..... Is that wrong?

I also didn't offend you personally...... I offended your idea. I brought a very real life situation into question with your faith and everyone knows what the answer would be.

Let me ask this...... God calls our faith into question all the time correct? Wasn't it Abraham whom was going to burn his son because god told him to? If you would..... Please oblige
me and post the passage.

Now..... If I'm not mistaken once again..... Wasn't a woman in the news for drowning her 4 children because god spoke to her and told her to? He appeared to her in private like he does to all that he appears to. So if she claims he appeared and did it in the name of god - why do we lock her in a mental institution?

That's a major question I want an answer to..... How can we say she's wrong I this has been asked before?

[Flagg]

i am incapable of converting you or anyone else. God is the only one who can do that. i read the bible and know this to be the case much moreso than urself obviously, which is why u mistakenly perceive what im doing here as "trying to convert you". i am scattering seed, and it is not necessarily intended for you. maybe for someone else that may be reading this thread.

FLAGG: as far as carbon dating i posted a link to what casts apparent light on the error of the way it is done with a 30 second google search.

im done with this thread for one reason: God's word deserves to be honored, respected and diligently and hungrily studied.

u claim to require proof, but u fail to provide it and ignore ur failure and press on.. the reason u cant prove where the universe came from and where single cell self replicating organisms came from is because u refuse to acknowledge the true source: God..

Yeah but im not even talking about carbon dating.

You are saying the earth is only 10,000 years old. I'm saying that Ice Cores go back 1 million years. And yes I can provide proof as I did so about a week ago in a similar thread.

[jimmyinkedup]

My life is about my children. I have never experienced anything like being a father. There is nothing I would not do for my children and to be honest I dont think I ever really knew what love was until them. Seeing the birth of my son literally changed me and my life forever. When you walk in your home and a 19 month old runs up to you as excited as can be, jumps into your arms saying DADA DADA and hugs you with all his might it touches your heart in a way nothing else can. After 40+ years on this earth I finally found a true sense of what it is all about for me.

[panntastic]

My life is about my children. I have never experienced anything like being a father. There is nothing I would not do for my children and to be honest I dont think I ever really knew what love was until them. Seeing the birth of my son literally changed me and my life forever. When you walk in your home and a 19 month old runs up to you as excited as can be, jumps into your arms saying DADA DADA and hugs you with all his might it touches your heart in a way nothing else can. After 40+ years on this earth I finally found a true sense of what it is all about for me.

Sums life up perfectly jimmy
Nothing better than the love of a child

[thegodfather]

As a christian man i feel a responsibility to make sure Gods word is respected and honored wherever i am involved. I encourage sincere questioning and enjoy sharing my faith.

It has often been said there are no stupid questions. I am here to say that is not the case. The question posed by hazard about the heimlich maneuver definitely qualified. It was pompous, arrogant, presumptuous, and condescending. It was reflective of an attitude i will not tolerate where Gods word is involved.

While i can t enforce conversations about Gods word being handled properly, i can end my involvement. To an extent Gods word can be questioned and debated on, but this can only go on for so long before it brings dishonor to His word.

I encourage all of u to think about it, and question it,, but do it with the right heart. If any of u have legitimate and sincere questions i will be the first to try to answer them, but i will not stand for Gods word to be made a mockery, nor will i allow negative aspersions to be cast on Christians where i continue to engage.

The word of God is just that, it is not man made science that can be argued and debated into the ground. There must come a time when a line is drawn, and i am drawing that line.

Those before you have drawn lines in the sand, it resulted in the Crusades, people burned at the stake for reading the bible by themselves, more recently in our times, men with suicide vests to cast out the 'unbelievers'. Now, I am not putting your comments on quite an equivocal stance, as you are not advocating violence in any way, so do not misunderstand intent. However, we should realize the nature of human beings, and the strength that belief has. You cannot disown those who are tied to your faiths past, because you see, religion "evolves" as well, at the hand of man. What was thought to be a solid interpretation of the word 200(Puritans),400,600,800 years ago, is no longer kept. There is a 'modern' interpretation of the word, where theologians decide that killing others for not believing in your Sun God who impregnated a virgin on Earth, is in fact a morally unjustified thing to do. I suspect, in about 600 years time when Islam catches up, they will reach the same conclusion as well, if for no other reason than the followers will no longer tolerate such behavior. But your GENERAL viewpoint, is one of intolerance, closed mindedness, and a refusal to explore the ideas of others.

[HORSE]

mystery guy/gal who pops up at unusual times attempting to provoke the situation u make 2 incorrect assumptions about me (assuming i am who u are referring to above):
1. u mistaken steadfastness for anger

I made no assumption about you, just an observation from my own perspective of what was transpiring on the previous page....

2. u assume because i am christian i am automatically peace loving and forgiving. while i strive to be, I often fall short.

Once again I assumed nothing of you, but I can see how the short coming you mentioned above, should it get the better of you, could cause people to make assumptions....

My comment was not an attack nor is this, lighten up and have a conversation....

People really are interested in this discussion (as they should be) and i see it as a very encouraging thing....

It is nice to see people question thing's, it means they are curious, trying to grow, trying become the best they can be and hopefully they'll figure out what they are meant to be along the way....

The problem is that wont happen if they don't take the journey and for some this discussion may be the beginning of that journey, we can't decide at what stop point it end's for them whether it be god, science or god and science but we can help to ignite a spark that if they nurture can turn into an ember and it might (just might) guide them onto there own path of enlightenment....

I would hate to see you drop out of the conversation, i feel that it give's you a chance to have some fascinating discourse and possibly enlighten a few folk's along the way about your perception of god and religion....

[Hazard]

My life is about my children. I have never experienced anything like being a father. There is nothing I would not do for my children and to be honest I dont think I ever really knew what love was until them. Seeing the birth of my son literally changed me and my life forever. When you walk in your home and a 19 month old runs up to you as excited as can be, jumps into your arms saying DADA DADA and hugs you with all his might it touches your heart in a way nothing else can. After 40+ years on this earth I finally found a true sense of what it is all about for me.

That's beautiful! I know the feeling..... Every morning I walk in my daughters room I hear Da Da! With a huge smile hahaha

[AnabolicDoc]

Here's the man behind what I was talking about. J. Craig Venter - http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/03/ma...anted=all&_r=0

He's mapped the human genome and has created a synthetic organism..... The article is also very interesting on what he wants to do.

Wow that's a long article. Read half and needed a break. It's amazing stuff, thanks so much for posting it.

[redz]

I want to make babies.

[marcus300]

Yeah but im not even talking about carbon dating.

You are saying the earth is only 10,000 years old. I'm saying that Ice Cores go back 1 million years. And yes I can provide proof as I did so about a week ago in a similar thread.

There seems to be a lot of flaws within the bible due to science but there does seem to be a lot what bothers me on the science side. Going to put it together and ask a few of you about something.

[Hazard]

I don't have this statement in full..... And to be honest I'm not understanding it 100% because I'm not a physics scholar but maybe someone can elaborate or pick the thought up.

In regards to a "cause" for the big bang...... When we goto the point prior to the "bang" time=0. If there effectively was no time..... Then a cause is irrelevant.

That thought is NOT complete by any means and can be expands upon and explained a lot better. I can't right now because I'm working but I will try later.

[marcus300]

Haz, Flagg, TGF, Horse, pann, JWP806 or anyone else who knows the answers...........


There is a lot of evidence and facts what show the bible to have many flaws, this is without doubt due to reading this thread a lone and it does make you ask the question if the bible has so many flaws then maybe the whole thing is fiction who know is anyone else guess but taking the bible out of it and looking at the earth/universe situation whats been debating over the last few days science does have a lot of answers but when I was reading some of Haz's links I did start researching and after a bit came to something what did make me question the science part. Not sure if this is correct or not after all ive read it on the internet and not well educated like most on here regarding the science part but ask a couple of question. I will be copying and pasting some stuff because its better in there words than mine but here goes.


Science shows the earth is so old and the bible states something different we have got this straight you can't argue with facts and data but in the whole of the universe as far as we can see or explore anyway how do you explain that the earth is so perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life. The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day. And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.


Another one I struggle with is the Universe it began with one enormaous explosion of energy and light which is known as the big bang this was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.

Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen. Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."

The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter.




Another few what seems hard to explain are

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life: It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that various chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels. Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body. Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees. Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter. Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.


The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.


The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

If we can explain so much what puts doubt in our minds what the bible preachers than why cant we explain the above??


Thought, opinions or facts welcome

[panntastic]

Very very deep Marcus!
I'm loving the thought pattern that's for sure.
The way you write about the earth in your first paragraph and all the variables that make it what it is make me instantly think of bacteria.
Bacteria laying dormant until the correct environment is found and all the variables are in place for the bacteria to spring to life and cultivate.

Maybe we as a planet/race are a bacterial culture and as you said we're not to close not to far away from the sun to let us thrive.

The way the human race is growing and raping natural resources also is similar to that of a bacterial colony.

Just a thought

[Flagg]

Im in bed sick so I'm on my phone but I couldn't resist answering this when I saw it.

The is a hypothesis called The Rare Earth hypothesis that states for a planet like ours to exist, certain criteria must be met. Now if you consider the billions and billions of stars out there, and the multiply that figure again for planets, its not hard to believe that sooner or later, the law of averages kicks in and certain things occur for things like an "earth" to occur. Its nothing more than the law of averages. If you take all the factors that makes our planet possible, measured against all the stars in our galaxy, probability of exact earth like planets in our galaxy is around 1 million of them.

There's a reason that animals like humans and other mammals are known as complex organisms. Science can't explain everything for instace, Science still isn't sure at what point did birds develop the ability to fly. What prompted them? Why did the dinosaurs die out 65 million years ago when they'd survived previous mass extinctions? How did small mammals, snakes, sharks and crocodiles survive when all the dinosaurs died out, except the ones that became birds?

[--->>405<<---]

[/B]



My comment was not an attack nor is this, lighten up and have a conversation....

People really are interested in this discussion (as they should be) and i see it as a very encouraging thing....

It is nice to see people question thing's, it means they are curious, trying to grow, trying become the best they can be and hopefully they'll figure out what they are meant to be along the way....

The problem is that wont happen if they don't take the journey and for some this discussion may be the beginning of that journey, we can't decide at what stop point it end's for them whether it be god, science or god and science but we can help to ignite a spark that if they nurture can turn into an ember and it might (just might) guide them onto there own path of enlightenment....

I would hate to see you drop out of the conversation, i feel that it give's you a chance to have some fascinating discourse and possibly enlighten a few folk's along the way about your perception of god and religion....

i appreciate this and cant argue with ur logic...

let me say this: while there are some very smart guys in science, we also have some very smart guys as well. just because we believe in a creator does not mean we dont consider what science says and/or look into the validity of the questions posed by science.

we just see it thru different "glasses" than the scientist. while the scientist may see something as proof against the integrity of the Bible, we as Christians who KNOW in our hearts and have lived with the Lord for years see it as an opportunity to remedy science and the Bible, or even correct science. God is smarter than any scientist. to my personal knowledge there is nothing scientifically that has come to pass that has not been explained/remedied with the Bible. people have been attacking the integrity of the bible since it was first put together and have been unsuccessful.

please keep this in mind. while u may think u have compelling evidence against what the bible has to say, given enuff time and research i feel certain i can refute it. i am no bible scholar, and im even less of a scientist, but i AM a christian man who knows as deep in my heart as I am capable of going that God is real, and the bible is true.

at my church we are taught Verbal Plenary Inspiration: (below is not my own but copy and pasted for explanation)

This is very important material to master. Quoted Text below is from one of my Bible classes; the quotes are read from time to time, to remind us of the SIGNIFICANCE of this Beautiful Bible we are so privileged to have. [L.1628 92SD.] If not quoted, it's paraphrased. I believe my pastor was quoting from other theological sources, but when you think over the meaning of the words, you see how apt they are, just the same.

"Verbal Plenary Inspiration" means "God the Holy Spirit so supernaturally directed the human writers of Scripture that, without waiving their intelligence, their individuality, their personal feelings, their literary style, or any other human factor of expression, His Complete and Coherent Message to mankind was recorded with perfect accuracy in the original languages of Scripture: the very words bearing the Authority of Divine Authorship."

So "Verbal" means, "the Bible in its original languages, from first to last (Autograph), is an exact record of the Mind and Will of God as He intended it to be."

So "Plenary" means, "the entire text of the Bible is equally from God, but not necessarily equally-important."

So "Inspiration" means, 2Tim3:16's "God-breathed" (theopneustos): just as God breathed into Adam's nostrils AFTER MAKING HIS BODY and that made Adam EXHALE and thus become a living soul, so also God's breathing of the Word into the Scripture writers produced an 'exhale' of Canon, without waiving any of their own personal attributes.

keep in mind guys that Christianity is not unlike any other thing in this world in the sense that we too have some people who are just plain idiots and misrepresent us and make us look bad. we cannot be lumped together based on few (or a bunch) of morons. also while i realize to the non-christian the credibility of our faith is somewhat determined by how we (humans) conduct ourselves, the fundamentals of our faith relies solely upon God. human beings mess things up. thats what we do. while some of these poor representatives of our faith are not equipped to handle the questions posed by science and appear to cause the rest of us to have an attitude of wanting to turn a blind eye and bury our heads in the sand with regards to biblical challenges which appear to be contradicted by science, this is a poor representation of the spirit in which our faith operates.

as i said earlier, questioning is good and encouraged, just be sure to tread respectfully as you are approaching the work of God. while u may not, or never will believe it, there are many before you and after you who do and it is not without good reason and careful examination. theologians scrutinize the bible as harshly as any scientist! but we do it in a different spirit, that of wonder and faith knowing ultimately what appears to be a contradiction will prove to be the opposite!

also we believe the bible to be inerrant and infallible. this applies to the original text and NOT to biblical translations.

Inerrant:

Biblical inerrancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Biblical inerrancy is the doctrine that the Bible, in its original manuscripts, is accurate and totally free from error of any kind, that "Scripture in the original manuscripts does not affirm anything that is contrary to fact.

infallible

Definition of INFALLIBLE
1
: incapable of error : unerring <an infallible memory>
2
: not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint : certain <an infallible remedy>
3
: incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals

[marcus300]

Im in bed sick so I'm on my phone but I couldn't resist answering this when I saw it.

The is a hypothesis called The Rare Earth hypothesis that states for a planet like ours to exist, certain criteria must be met. Now if you consider the billions and billions of stars out there, and the multiply that figure again for planets, its not hard to believe that sooner or later, the law of averages kicks in and certain things occur for things like an "earth" to occur. Its nothing more than the law of averages. If you take all the factors that makes our planet possible, measured against all the stars in our galaxy, probability of exact earth like planets in our galaxy is around 1 million of them.

There's a reason that animals like humans and other mammals are known as complex organisms. Science can't explain everything for instace, Science still isn't sure at what point did birds develop the ability to fly. What prompted them? Why did the dinosaurs die out 65 million years ago when they'd survived previous mass extinctions? How did small mammals, snakes, sharks and crocodiles survive when all the dinosaurs died out, except the ones that became birds?

I see your point now Flagg and does seem logical the law of averages Mmmm

what about the rest of my post any thoughts on that?

[marcus300]

i appreciate this and cant argue with ur logic...

let me say this: while there are some very smart guys in science, we also have some very smart guys as well. just because we believe in a creator does not mean we dont consider what science says and/or look into the validity of the questions posed by science.

we just see it thru different "glasses" than the scientist. while the scientist may see something as proof against the integrity of the Bible, we as Christians who KNOW in our hearts and have lived with the Lord for years see it as an opportunity to remedy science and the Bible, or even correct science. God is smarter than any scientist. to my personal knowledge there is nothing scientifically that has come to pass that has not been explained/remedied with the Bible. people have been attacking the integrity of the bible since it was first put together and have been unsuccessful.

please keep this in mind. while u may think u have compelling evidence against what the bible has to say, given enuff time and research i feel certain i can refute it. i am no bible scholar, and im even less of a scientist, but i AM a christian man who knows as deep in my heart as I am capable of going that God is real, and the bible is true.

at my church we are taught Verbal Plenary Inspiration: (below is not my own but copy and pasted for explanation)



keep in mind guys that Christianity is not unlike any other thing in this world in the sense that we too have some people who are just plain idiots and misrepresent us and make us look bad. we cannot be lumped together based on few (or a bunch) of morons. also while i realize to the non-christian the credibility of our faith is somewhat determined by how we (humans) conduct ourselves, the fundamentals of our faith relies solely upon God. human beings mess things up. thats what we do. while some of these poor representatives of our faith are not equipped to handle the questions posed by science and appear to cause the rest of us to have an attitude of wanting to turn a blind eye and bury our heads in the sand with regards to biblical challenges which appear to be contradicted by science, this is a poor representation of the spirit in which our faith operates.

as i said earlier, questioning is good and encouraged, just be sure to tread respectfully as you are approaching the work of God. while u may not, or never will believe it, there are many before you and after you who do and it is not without good reason and careful examination. theologians scrutinize the bible as harshly as any scientist! but we do it in a different spirit, that of wonder and faith knowing ultimately what appears to be a contradiction will prove to be the opposite!

also we believe the bible to be inerrant and infallible. this applies to the original text and NOT to biblical translations.

Inerrant:


infallible

So you believe God put man on this earth in the form of Adam first? this is where humans originated from ?

[austinite]

Every belief can be exposed for falseness or hollowness. If you believe in something and are content, have faith or whatever it is... just enjoy it and live your life accordingly. The only important aspects are to make sure that you're convinced and satisfied and that your beliefs do not become actions that may affect the lifestyles of others negatively.

[Hazard]

Marcus - I'm working with one of the supervisors today so I'll come back on when I get home and read your post.

[marcus300]

Marcus - I'm working with one of the supervisors today so I'll come back on when I get home and read your post.

Thanks would love your input on my post

[--->>405<<---]

So you believe God put man on this earth in the form of Adam first? this is where humans originated from ?

Yes thats correct.

[--->>405<<---]

Every belief can be exposed for falseness or hollowness. If you believe in something and are content, have faith or whatever it is... just enjoy it and live your life accordingly. The only important aspects are to make sure that you're convinced and satisfied and that your beliefs do not become actions that may affect the lifestyles of others negatively.

U say every belief can be exposed for falseness as if this is an absolute fact. I challenge u to do it here and now with regards to Christianity. i would also like to note here with regards to what is highlighted above: while this may be your opinion as to what is important, God disagrees with you.

the Great Commission:
Matthew 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

this is one explanation as to why we spread the Good News of salvation thru faith in Christ. we have been commanded to do so.

[marcus300]

Yes thats correct.

This is the problem with me and the bible, god created Adam and Eve 6,000 yrs ago along with plants and animals, but there is evidence 405 that there are fossils known to be millions of yrs old which puts huge flaws of what the bible states, so if one thing in the bible shows to be fake why can't everything else be? can you shine any light of these facts or your thoughts regarding fossils dating back before life began on earth or even earth itself?

[austinite]

U say every belief can be exposed for falseness as if this is an absolute fact. I challenge u to do it here and now with regards to Christianity. i would also like to note here with regards to what is highlighted above: while this may be your opinion as to what is important, God disagrees with you.

the Great Commission:
Matthew 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

this is one explanation as to why we spread the Good News of salvation thru faith in Christ. we have been commanded to do so.

I was avoiding this thread forever, I guess I made my bed...

Do you believe that God knows all? Past, present and future?

[--->>405<<---]

This is the problem with me and the bible, god created Adam and Eve 6,000 yrs ago along with plants and animals, but there is evidence 405 that there are fossils known to be millions of yrs old which puts huge flaws of what the bible states, so if one thing in the bible shows to be fake why can't anything else? can you shine any light of these facts or your thoughts regarding fossils dating back before life began on earth or even earth itself?

i can and will! it may take me a little while. im about to go in and do chest/lats but will say this: carbon dating has been shown to possibly be flawed from what little research i have done depending on certain assumptions made by the people doing the "dating" or whatever u wanna call it.

Doesn’t Carbon-14 Dating Disprove the Bible? - Answers in Genesis

[--->>405<<---]

I was avoiding this thread forever, I guess I made my bed...

Do you believe that God knows all? Past, present and future?

of course.

Omniscience

Omniscient

God knows everything and His knowledge is complete. This is called His omniscience. Isaiah said that Israel had not seen everything that God had planned (Isaiah 40:28). Job said that God had all knowledge (Job 37:16). The psalmist said that God’s understanding was infinite (Psalm 147:5). The New Testament also claims God’s omniscience in 1 John 3:20 and Romans 11:33.

Read more: 10 Awesome Attributes of God

[austinite]

of course.

Omniscience

Read more: 10 Awesome Attributes of God

So if he knows everything. Then why go through this?? Of he knows I'm going to end up in hell and knows exactly why and exactly what I will be doing to get there.... Why? Did he make a movie and is now watching it?

[marcus300]

i can and will! it may take me a little while. im about to go in and do chest/lats but will say this: carbon dating has been shown to possibly be flawed from what little research i have done depending on certain assumptions made by the people doing the "dating" or whatever u wanna call it.

Doesn’t Carbon-14 Dating Disprove the Bible? - Answers in Genesis

Well if there is doubt in carbon dating and this information is correct then it does but a flaw of carbon dating of fossils.

But ice cores go back hundreds of thousand years well before its stated the earth was created, any thoughts on that one?

[--->>405<<---]

So if he knows everything. Then why go through this?? Of he knows I'm going to end up in hell and knows exactly why and exactly what I will be doing to get there.... Why? Did he make a movie and is now watching it?

a very good question! now ur venturing forth into the notion of where sovereignty stops and personal responsibility starts. you must keep in mind when asking questions about the Christian faith that we accept the bible as absolute truth. there are some ideas contained within the bible we dont understand fully, but that does not mean they arent true.

in answering most (probably all) questions i will cite scripture to back it up, as this is really all i have and all i need based on my faith.

Isaiah 55:9
9“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

it is because of this scripture and the reality that God is way smarter than we that some of the concepts and questions we have cannot be explained. they can be shown to be true because they are contained in the Bible, but they can not be understood by the finite mind. consider the concept of the HOly Trinity for an example. 3 in 1, the father, son, and holy spirit. three separate deities yet one deity simultaneously.

Gods sovereignty and our responsibility is a lot like the trinity. we know it to be true, but cant fully grasp it.
God's Sovereignty as reference:

Sovereignty:
1
obsolete : supreme excellence or an example of it
2
a : supreme power especially over a body politic
b : freedom from external control : autonomy
c : controlling influence
3
: one that is sovereign; especially : an autonomous state

scripture backing it up:

Daniel 4:35
All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?”

Psalm 115:3
3 Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.

1 timothy 6:15
15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

Mans Responsibility:

Galatians 6:5 ESV For each will have to bear his own load.

2 corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Galatians 6:7-8
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

so u see we are responsible for what we do. God knows what we are going to do, but we have the free will or (free moral agency) to make our own choices. Gods sovereignty does not encroach on our own ability to do what we will.

[--->>405<<---]

Well if there is doubt in carbon dating and this information is correct then it does but a flaw of carbon dating of fossils.

But ice cores go back hundreds of thousand years well before its stated the earth was created, any thoughts on that one?

can u provide me with a link to ice cores? i dont even know what that is.. also how have they determined their age?

[Flagg]

can u provide me with a link to ice cores? i dont even know what that is.. also how have they determined their age?

405, I was having practically the same debate with PPWC1985, and when I presented the information to him, he strangely vanished. Hopefully you wont do the same

It's in this thread here: http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-l...osphere-2.html but i'll copy and paste exactly what I said to him, regarding icecores.

PPWC1985.

We know the earth is at least 1 million years old due to ice cores. I'm glad I have a day off work today so I can go into more detail.

Icecores, like tree rings, can show us a glimpse of the past and what the atmosphere was like and they can do this going back 100's of thousands of years. How do we know this accurate, because you can see exactly what the summer was like last year, 2 years ago, 3 years ago and so on with these things.

Ice cores are extracted from places like Antartica and brought back to the lab for study so scientists can determine what the weather was like thousands of years ago. Now when snows fall on the continents they form layers, but the snow of summers, with their and dust, has a different look, a darker layer. This makes layer counting easier. The kind of information gathered here can determine the temperature from isotope measurements. We can also determine the rate of precipitation from this, what kind of gasses were in the atmosphere at the time and so on. We can get data going back at least 800,000 years with this currently.

Some of the deeper blocks of ice at the poles, that go some 3km down, could probably give us information going back 1 million years. And how do we know this works? Because we can determine what kind of winters and summers we had last year, what the atmosphere composition was like and we can use an ice core dating back last year to corroborate this.

[austinite]

a very good question! now ur venturing forth into the notion of where sovereignty stops and personal responsibility starts. you must keep in mind when asking questions about the Christian faith that we accept the bible as absolute truth. there are some ideas contained within the bible we dont understand fully, but that does not mean they arent true.
in answering most (probably all) questions i will cite scripture to back it up, as this is really all i have and all i need based on my faith.



it is because of this scripture and the reality that God is way smarter than we that some of the concepts and questions we have cannot be explained. they can be shown to be true because they are contained in the Bible, but they can not be understood by the finite mind. consider the concept of the HOly Trinity for an example. 3 in 1, the father, son, and holy spirit. three separate deities yet one deity simultaneously.

Gods sovereignty and our responsibility is a lot like the trinity. we know it to be true, but cant fully grasp it.
God's Sovereignty as reference:


scripture backing it up:






Mans Responsibility:






so u see we are responsible for what we do. God knows what we are going to do, but we have the free will or (free moral agency) to make our own choices. Gods sovereignty does not encroach on our own ability to do what we will.

That doesn't make any sense at all, 405 and it doesn't answer my question. My question was WHY. Why go through this?

My point to my original post is that you have no choice but to reference faith. This is why it is an absolute must for me to believe that every belief is in fact flawed. All religions. This doesn't mean you have to renounce, not at all. Like I said, if you're happy, stay that way.

You practically agreed with me in your statement above in red. You can't say "fact" on anything if you don't understand it.

- I hope I didn't bother anyone with my posts. I'm really just interacting a little and willing to learn.

[marcus300]

can u provide me with a link to ice cores? i dont even know what that is.. also how have they determined their age?

From the scientific website of international Polar foundation

Archives of Change: Ice Cores and the Reading of Climate - Article - SciencePoles - Polar sciences and research

Archives of Change: Ice Cores and the Reading of Climate

11 Oct 2007 - Interviews, Ice & Snow, Arctic, Antarctic


Valérie Masson-Delmotte

Valérie Masson-Delmotte

© Valérie Masson-Delmotte / Valérie Masson-Delmotte

Recently interviewed by SciencePoles, Dr Valérie Masson-Delmotte is a paleoclimatologist and leading expert on Antarctic and Greenland ice cores. Based at the French 'Laboratoire des Sciences du Climat et de l'Environnement' (CEA-CNRS UVSQ), she is also a contributor to the recent IPCC Fourth Assessment Report, and the author of children's books on the subject of climate and polar exploration.

What is the difference between Greenland and Antarctic ice cores?

Although the ice sheets of Greenland and Antarctica are both comparable in depth - about 3 kilometers in Greenland and up to 4 in Antarctica - the centre of Antarctica is a desert where it snows about 2cm a year, whereas in Greenland, precipitation is about ten times greater, or on average, 20 centimeters a year. This means that in Greenland, segments of ice core corresponding to one year will be much thicker and with a higher resolution, but that the entire core will not go as far back in time as in Antarctica.

It's a question of dynamics with Greenland being much more active due to its warmer climate, higher level of precipitation, and faster process of accumulation and outflow. We estimate that on average, Greenland ice is 40 000 years old, whereas for Antarctica, the figure is 120 000 years.

When were the first ice cores extracted?

The extraction of ice cores in Antarctica and Greenland goes back to the 1960s. In those days they didn't go very far back in time and the data obtained was still very preliminary. Ice core research really took off in the 80s, and in recent years we have been able to extract an Antarctic ice core that goes back 800 000 years, which equates nine cycles of glacial and interglacial periods. In Greenland, the oldest ice core goes back slightly more than 120 000 years.

What have they already taught us about the history of climate?

Ice cores have given us information about climate forcing that occurs as a result of solar activity; about volcanic activity as particles get deposited on the ice surface in the years following an eruption; and of course about levels of greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere. What's more, they also provide us with information about local, regional, and global climate: Precipitation on a given year, local temperature, levels of CFC gases...

But for me the two most important findings obtained from ice cores are:
1.That the climate cycle (or global temperature) is always coupled with the carbon cycle, and that the cause or trigger of glaciated periods is found in the variations in terrestrial orbits as the Earth's trajectory around the Sun varies and modifies the Earth's incoming solar energy. This phenomenon is then further amplified by climate feedbacks such as changes in the composition of the atmosphere.
2.That we can have very brutal climate fluctuations and responses on the local level. This is particularly the case for the North Atlantic where, during the last glaciation, the climate underwent about 25 abrupt changes (over a few decades or centuries) as a result of a reorganization of marine currents (events that have contrasted effects north and south, as a result of heat redistribution).

How has the natural fluctuation of climate changed since the dawn of the industrial revolution?

Ice cores show very clearly that a change occurred in the chemistry and composition of the atmosphere right at the outset of the Industrial Revolution. In comparison with the natural level during warm periods, we can read a 30% increase in the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere over the last two centuries. We can also read a doubling in the atmospheric concentration of methane. So not only are we in the process of changing the composition of the atmosphere, but on top of it, we are doing so extremely rapidly.

In regards to changes in climate, readings have to be more subtle. In Greenland, it is only in the past ten to fifteen years that we have detected a warming that is above what is considered natural. But this warming also seems to be occurring more rapidly then in previous warming cycles. In the center of Antarctica, we are not currently seeing any warming. There is even a slight tendency to cooling. However, on the Antarctic Peninsula, the warming is very pronounced and this can be read in ice cores extracted from that region. Generally speaking, though, central Antarctica is an exception in a world that is definitely warming.

What can ice cores still teach us? What are the big questions in ice core science today?

There are still four major questions which have been underlined by the international ice core research programme, IPICS (International Partnership for Ice Core Science), which currently pools resources from 29 nations.
1.The first question is 'How did the climate and carbon cycle evolve prior to 800 000 years ago?' We know from studying marine sediments that the rhythm of glaciation periods underwent a major reorganization between 1.5 million and 800 000 million years ago, but we do not have any CO2 atmospheric concentration data from that period. Before this reorganization, glaciation periods where more frequent, occurring every 40 000 or so years. During the last million years, glaciation periods have become more intense, and with longer cycles of around 100 000 years. What we want to know is what caused this shift. It's a fundamental question if we want to understand how the carbon cycle reacted at that time, and how it might react in the future.
2.The second key question is to understand the stability of the Greenland and West Antarctic ice sheets during the past warm period. We know that 125 000 to 130 000 years ago the climate was up to 5 degrees centigrade warmer than it is today. We also know that sea level at that time rose as much as three to six meters above, so there must have been a partial meltdown of the Greenland ice sheet, probably mostly the Southern part of Greenland, but also of West Antarctica. But we don't know the speed at which this happened, and this is a crucial question to help develop mid-term models looking at what might occur over the next one to two thousand years as the ice-sheets respond to the current warming.
3.The third question or objective is to retrieve an array of cores from both in the Arctic and Antarctic covering and giving us a more detailed picture of the past 40 000 years and going back to the maximum of the last glaciation, allowing us to follow the sequence of events during the most rapid climate changes. Where does it start? How quickly does it happen?
4.And finally, the fourth question is to learn more about the effect on the climate of natural occurrences such as volcanic eruptions and solar activity on the millennial scale. These are things that remain very difficult to quantify and for which we have to combine an array of small ice cores which go back as little as one to two thousand years. The advantage of this time scale is that it can also be done in glaciers in tropical and temperate regions, thus obtaining a record that stretches far beyond the Poles, so that variability can be tracked geographically across the globe.

What are the locations of the next big ice coring projects?

The next big ice core project is the NEEM project in Greenland, which has just started and which should begin deep drilling in 2008 hopefully going back some 140 000 years. Fourteen countries are taking part, from Europe, North America and the Far East.

In Antarctica, at Talos Dome in the Ross Sea Dependency, there is a Franco-Italian-British project that is already operational and which has for aim to go back some 100 000 years. There remains some 500 metres to drill and this should be done during the next season.

And as mentioned before, the Americans are also starting a big project, the West Antarctic Ice Sheet Divide (WAIS Divide), with the aim of retrieving a full climate cycle in West Antarctica. This is very important, because we think that West Antarctica may have been destabilized during the last warm period, about 130 000 years ago, and up to now we have not retrieved a deep core from this region.

There is a lot of talk about a deep ice core being extracted from Dome A at the centre of the East Antarctic ice sheet: A core that might go back 1.5 million years. Can you tell us more about it?

The Chinese have carried out and are planning more traverses to Dome A with a view to building a station there and of being the main actors of a deep ice core project in this sector.

Dome A is complicated drilling site because it is located at more than 4000 metres in altitude, it is very far from the coast and the existing Chinese station, Zhongshan, from where the traverses depart. Hence the logistics are very complicated and expensive.

The site also remains poorly surveyed beneath the ice sheet that hides a complicated and broken topography of mountains and valleys. Past experience at Dome Fuji (where the Japanese retrieved a 700 000 year old ice core) shows us that this could be a problem for the conservation of the oldest ice as it might have been distorted close to the grounding with the continental surface.

A lot more information is still needed to be able to choose the best site within a 50 to 100 metre radius of Dome A, and there is still a lot of incertitude about where the precise location should be, but with the surveying that is planned, we should know a lot more in the next two years.

All this being said, Dome A is very interesting because the combination of less than 2cm snow precipitation per year, the highly distilled nature of the water particles that make up the ice, and the fact that it is the culminating point of the ice sheet, should enable the extraction of a core that goes as far back as 1.3 million years with very well preserved air bubbles and information.

For me going back more than one million years is absolutely essential. It will not only give us a much better understanding of ice sheet reaction and carbon dioxide fluctuations in response to changes in climate in that crucial period between 800 000 and 1.5 million years ago (when glaciation periods underwent a major reorganization), it will also provide us with a range of data to compare to existing cores.

What is the French involvement in major international ice coring projects?

The French are involved in the management committee of the IPICS programme, including the upcoming coring in Greenland. We were of course extremely active in the EPICA programme which retrieved the 800 000 year old ice core at Dome C, and we are currently establishing a Franco-Chinese collaboration agreement for Dome A to drill an initial core to a depth of about on thousand metres.

We are of course also very interested in collaborating with China on the deep core at Dome A and to make available our expertise and know-how, but this is still under discussion and should become clearer over the coming months.

You've said that you think the history of climate should be taught in schools, to the same extent as human history. Why?

We are beginning to live through the first effects of the 'climate experiment' we have instigated by emitting greenhouse gases on a massive scale, and the effects are only going to more and more significant. Speaking conservatively, in one hundred years time, global temperature will have risen by at least three degrees centigrade. And the communities that will be the most affected will be the poorest ones: Communities that are the most dependent on certain levels of precipitation; communities that live close to the coast and have not means of protecting themselves from sea level rise.

For people to start to take the measure of the future climatic risk, or to begin to understand the climate of our planet, I think it is important for children to start learning very early what we know about the history of climate, in the same way that we learn about the history of civilization. I don't think this sort of thing can just be learned through the media. People, especially children, really need to be given a grounding in all of this, so that they can understand the basics as much as the broader picture of what makes the climate fluctuate, what dictates the speed of change, what are the key points, the risks of instability, etc... It seems indispensable for me that people have a chance to absorb this dimension of things, because without it, it is difficult to act as citizens.

[HORSE]

Assuming that God did guide and direct every word of scripture, it still leaves the matter of who collected all the individual writing's of the time that claimed to be divinely inspired??
How did they determine there validity??
Did they read each and every work presented that claimed divine influence??
How then did they decided which ones where to be canonized to form the bible and which one's where to be denounced or just plain forgotten??
Was it decided by a vote amongst men/Bishops??

I understand that the word of God is infallible but how are we to put that kind of faith in the fallible men that where tasked with putting together the scripture that makes up the bible??

405 glad to see you decided to stay on and continue in the conversation....

[--->>405<<---]

[QUOTE=austinite;6491***]

That doesn't make any sense at all, 405 and it doesn't answer my question. My question was WHY. Why go through this?

which part doesnt make sense? when u ask why go thru this are u asking me why we are here? why did God create us? why do we have good and evil and why do we have to pick which one we follow? i wish i knew. i have read some things that stated part of it was so God could bring glory to Christ, His son. (this may or may not be correct and im not saying it is or isnt im just saying i read that somewhere once.)

also it could be that it was simply God's prerogative. u know He does as he wants. who are we to question? while we are capable of questioning, positionally we are not capable of questioning.

the simple answer is i have no idea! like i said im no bible expert, but i dont recall exactly hearing: "this is why God made us" ever..

He is love, maybe he wanted to share life with others and he made us out of generosity, giving life to some but unfortunately death to others. the fact that we have no choice in our existence is an interesting thing to ponder, but theres nothing we can do about it and now have to choose which way to go. maybe one day u can take it up with Him austin i know i sure do have a bunch of questions! i would be careful to disregard this simply because u dont understand it, and/or cant have all ur questions answered.. eternal destination (IMO) is not something to be taken lightly.

bottom line: why go thru this? because u have no choice..

My point to my original post is that you have no choice but to reference faith. This is why it is an absolute must for me to believe that every belief is in fact flawed. All religions. This doesn't mean you have to renounce, not at all. Like I said, if you're happy, stay that way.

while ur free to believe all religions are flawed, this does not make it the case per se.

You practically agreed with me in your statement above in red. You can't say "fact" on anything if you don't understand it.

which part did i agree with again?

- I hope I didn't bother anyone with my posts. I'm really just interacting a little and willing to learn.

not at all!

[--->>405<<---]

Assuming that God did guide and direct every word of scripture, it still leaves the matter of who collected all the individual writing's of the time that claimed to be divinely inspired??
How did they determine there validity??
Did they read each and every work presented that claimed divine influence??
How then did they decided which ones where to be canonized to form the bible and which one's where to be denounced or just plain forgotten??
Was it decided by a vote amongst men/Bishops??

I understand that the word of God is infallible but how are we to put that kind of faith in the fallible men that where tasked with putting together the scripture that makes up the bible??

405 glad to see you decided to stay on and continue in the conversation....

thanx horse. do u really want me to answer these questions above or would u prefer to do so?

[austinite]

which part doesnt make sense? when u ask why go thru this are u asking me why we are here? why did God create us? why do we have good and evil and why do we have to pick which one we follow? i wish i knew. i have read some things that stated part of it was so God could bring glory to Christ, His son. (this may or may not be correct and im not saying it is or isnt im just saying i read that somewhere once.)

also it could be that it was simply God's prerogative. u know He does as he wants. who are we to question? while we are capable of questioning, positionally we are not capable of questioning.

the simple answer is i have no idea! like i said im no bible expert, but i dont recall exactly hearing: "this is why God made us" ever..

He is love, maybe he wanted to share life with others and he made us out of generosity, giving life to some but unfortunately death to others. the fact that we have no choice in our existence is an interesting thing to ponder, but theres nothing we can do about it and now have to choose which way to go. maybe one day u can take it up with Him austin i know i sure do have a bunch of questions! i would be careful to disregard this simply because u dont understand it, and/or cant have all ur questions answered.. eternal destination (IMO) is not something to be taken lightly.

bottom line: why go thru this? because u have no choice..



while ur free to believe all religions are flawed, this does not make it the case per se.


which part did i agree with again?

not at all!

Well, I can't learn if there are no answers. So back to the drawing board for me! -- believe me, I wish I had what you have, which is belief. I just can't justify it. Everyone speaks of good and evil, well... I don't think I should believe in anything that won't give me reasons why. That is not "good" in my world.

We don't even know if any holy book is exactly as it was originally written. Corruption didn't just show up recently, it's always been around.