Having trouble losing losing fat while maintaining muscle

[Docd187123]

Fair enough, I admit my answer wasn't perfect, but instead of calling it ignorant, perhaps you could elaborate on your statement. I am talking based on my personal experience, I am not spouting the dogma of anyone other than myself. From my personal experience, sugars totally f**k my physique unless taken post-workout, and for the most part I keep them very low and to be honest, I generally don't even have sugars at breakfast.
OP, what works for you is what will work for you, so do what works, I am only suggesting adjustments.

Fair enough. I apologize for making it seem like I was attacking you when it was meant towards the general misunderstand of carbs. When I said dogma I meant bc it was the BB'ing/supplement community that started this IMO.

All carbs besides fiber get converted to glucose by the body. Fundamentally and physiologically all carbs are the same. The argument can me made for maybe fructose in that it can only replace glycogen in the liver not skeletal muscle but this is still not enough reason to limit the intake of fructose to any specific time. The same goes for simple sugars which is where I disagree. Fibers also get digested to some degree (estimates out it at ~2cal/gram) but doesn't affect blood glucose levels so it's different than basic and poly sugars.

This is where the argument gets made about GI but the GI scale was made with diabetics in mind and unless you're eating carbs in isolation in a fasted state, the GI is completely irrelevant. Protein, dietary fat, and fiber all slow down the digestion and blunt the forthcoming insulin response. Add to that with the fact that most ppl eat more than once daily so there is almost always continual nutritional overlap in between meals and you have even less of an issue with spiking insulin.

There's more reasons not to avoid simple sugars but I'm not sure why you're advocating against them exactly and that's the most common reason. I'm not sure how they could mess up your physique more than any other carbs? There is no biological difference between them when they get converted to glucose. If anything I think maybe you're talking about water retention? But even so, your body would eventually adapt to the fluid retention or you could drop the water weight in a matter of days if need be.

I'm not saying you just eat simple sugars, I'm simply saying there is no logical reason to go out of your way to avoid them if you want to include them in your diet. And personally, I have tried everything from low carb/keto to high carbs >400g simple carbs vs complex etc and there is no difference in fat mass or lbm. Water weight did fluctuate a bit. I've done the whole GOMAD thing as well, currently I drink around 1/4 - 1/2 gallon of milk a day and while that's not half of my carb intake neither affects my progress.

[hellomycognomen]

Fair enough. I apologize for making it seem like I was attacking you when it was meant towards the general misunderstand of carbs. When I said dogma I meant bc it was the BB'ing/supplement community that started this IMO.

All carbs besides fiber get converted to glucose by the body. Fundamentally and physiologically all carbs are the same. The argument can me made for maybe fructose in that it can only replace glycogen in the liver not skeletal muscle but this is still not enough reason to limit the intake of fructose to any specific time. The same goes for simple sugars which is where I disagree. Fibers also get digested to some degree (estimates out it at ~2cal/gram) but doesn't affect blood glucose levels so it's different than basic and poly sugars.

This is where the argument gets made about GI but the GI scale was made with diabetics in mind and unless you're eating carbs in isolation in a fasted state, the GI is completely irrelevant. Protein, dietary fat, and fiber all slow down the digestion and blunt the forthcoming insulin response. Add to that with the fact that most ppl eat more than once daily so there is almost always continual nutritional overlap in between meals and you have even less of an issue with spiking insulin.

There's more reasons not to avoid simple sugars but I'm not sure why you're advocating against them exactly and that's the most common reason. I'm not sure how they could mess up your physique more than any other carbs? There is no biological difference between them when they get converted to glucose. If anything I think maybe you're talking about water retention? But even so, your body would eventually adapt to the fluid retention or you could drop the water weight in a matter of days if need be.

I'm not saying you just eat simple sugars, I'm simply saying there is no logical reason to go out of your way to avoid them if you want to include them in your diet. And personally, I have tried everything from low carb/keto to high carbs >400g simple carbs vs complex etc and there is no difference in fat mass or lbm. Water weight did fluctuate a bit. I've done the whole GOMAD thing as well, currently I drink around 1/4 - 1/2 gallon of milk a day and while that's not half of my carb intake neither affects my progress.

^^^^^

So Doc what is your opinion on macro percentage structure? What percent protein/carbs/fats do you recommend?

And in regards to the posted question when trying to lose body fat, do you cut calories evenly from all macros or do you drop percentage of a specific macro more than the others?

[Friesian]

Fair enough. I apologize for making it seem like I was attacking you when it was meant towards the general misunderstand of carbs. When I said dogma I meant bc it was the BB'ing/supplement community that started this IMO.

All carbs besides fiber get converted to glucose by the body. Fundamentally and physiologically all carbs are the same. The argument can me made for maybe fructose in that it can only replace glycogen in the liver not skeletal muscle but this is still not enough reason to limit the intake of fructose to any specific time. The same goes for simple sugars which is where I disagree. Fibers also get digested to some degree (estimates out it at ~2cal/gram) but doesn't affect blood glucose levels so it's different than basic and poly sugars.

This is where the argument gets made about GI but the GI scale was made with diabetics in mind and unless you're eating carbs in isolation in a fasted state, the GI is completely irrelevant. Protein, dietary fat, and fiber all slow down the digestion and blunt the forthcoming insulin response. Add to that with the fact that most ppl eat more than once daily so there is almost always continual nutritional overlap in between meals and you have even less of an issue with spiking insulin.

There's more reasons not to avoid simple sugars but I'm not sure why you're advocating against them exactly and that's the most common reason. I'm not sure how they could mess up your physique more than any other carbs? There is no biological difference between them when they get converted to glucose. If anything I think maybe you're talking about water retention? But even so, your body would eventually adapt to the fluid retention or you could drop the water weight in a matter of days if need be.

I'm not saying you just eat simple sugars, I'm simply saying there is no logical reason to go out of your way to avoid them if you want to include them in your diet. And personally, I have tried everything from low carb/keto to high carbs >400g simple carbs vs complex etc and there is no difference in fat mass or lbm. Water weight did fluctuate a bit. I've done the whole GOMAD thing as well, currently I drink around 1/4 - 1/2 gallon of milk a day and while that's not half of my carb intake neither affects my progress.

Thank you for your full explanation. I was not advocating against using them, more a controlled approach to their consumption. Whilst in the past I may have agreed with standpoint which is that, if I'm understanding you correctly, a carb is a carb. However, my personal experience has been otherwise. Across the last couple of years I have dropped approx. 70lbs of BF and I used to subscribe to the idea that a carb is a carb, and I'll admit, it worked. However, I tried changing to complex carbs throughout the day except post training and it worked better. I have at times gone back to eating from whatever carb source I saw fit and have always either plateaued or regained BF, but that is only my experience. I also find very little difference in water retention caused. Like I said to the OP though, I'm just talking in terms of my own experience, what works for me may be different for others.

[Docd187123]

^^^^^

So Doc what is your opinion on macro percentage structure? What percent protein/carbs/fats do you recommend?

And in regards to the posted question when trying to lose body fat, do you cut calories evenly from all macros or do you drop percentage of a specific macro more than the others?

Personally I don't work off percentages of total calories to calculate macros. I fill my minimum needs of the essential macros and fill the remaining calories with whatever macros I want for the day. I don't have set macros per se. One day maybe high carb while the next maybe low carb but higher fat. It varies greatly and it suits my lifestyle (I don't like to pack 4meals with me wherever I go, I don't like to cook 4days in advance and have bland food, I eat out frequently, I want different foods on different days, etc ).

Based on what I know, I set my intake according to my stats:
PRO: 1g/lb BW (~1.2g/lb LBM is slightly more accurate)
FAT: .3-.4g/lb BW

^^^these are sufficient to meet the body's minimum needs for survival and function and give you a decent margin of error. The remaining calories (after determine TDEE) can be filled with any macro or combo of macros of your choosing ie all carbs, some carbs with more protein, more fat and no carbs, etc. I try to keep carbs as high as possible to maintain intensity in the gym and this is where experimenting with your diet comes into play. Some perform better on high carb others need more fat. Some need to train fasted others train post-prandial state. Experiment and find what allows you peak performance in the gym.

Your second question depends on context. Generally to lose fat carbs are cut bc they're non-essential. The body is efficient at synthesizing glucose from protein or ketones. You would eventually die from lack of fats or protein but not carbs and that's why they're generally the first to be cut. Protein needs actually get higher as you get leaner so it's usually not a good idea to cut protein unless you're taking in excessive amounts. Fats usually can be reduced also (if you prefer higher carbs) but make sure no to drop them too low or eliminate them bc they are essential for hormonal prosecuting, overall health, etc. What I personally do is begin with a slight reduction in carbs. When I begin to stall I'll drop my fats to the minimum or slightly above. If I still need to cut I'll reduce carb intake further. My protein intake usually stays the same but that also depends on how low you have to drop your intake to.

Thank you for your full explanation. I was not advocating against using them, more a controlled approach to their consumption. Whilst in the past I may have agreed with standpoint which is that, if I'm understanding you correctly, a carb is a carb. However, my personal experience has been otherwise. Across the last couple of years I have dropped approx. 70lbs of BF and I used to subscribe to the idea that a carb is a carb, and I'll admit, it worked. However, I tried changing to complex carbs throughout the day except post training and it worked better. I have at times gone back to eating from whatever carb source I saw fit and have always either plateaued or regained BF, but that is only my experience. I also find very little difference in water retention caused. Like I said to the OP though, I'm just talking in terms of my own experience, what works for me may be different for others.

Is that you in your avi? If so congratulations on dropping the weight, you look great and should be proud of your accomplishments!

By 'regulating' your sugar intake you also typically regulate your energy intake unless you start to pig out on the other items you do eat. This is where the difference lies in your case (based only on what you've said so far). By minimizing simple sugars you normally take in less calories just bc you've restricted a certain food group. It's a correlation not cause and effect relationship meaning reducing sugars helped you lose the weight but it wasn't the cause, the concomitant calorie restriction was the cause. This is why the Atkins Diet, Zone Diet, Paleo, etc are so popular and effective....at first. They eliminate whole food groups which will almost always reduce the calorie intake but bc they often don't teach energy balance, many people stall out after the initial drop in weight/fat.

It makes sense with what we know know about physiology of the body and when you think about logically it holds true also: imagine using broccoli or donuts as your carb source. The former is not energy dense while the latter is very energy sense. It's easier to overeat on donuts than it is on broccoli. To get the same amount of carbs with broccoli as you would with donuts would require a much greater volume of broccoli which greatly affects satiety. This doesn't mean you can't have any donuts it just means you have to compensate in other aspects of your diet to get them to fit. I like to say everything in MODERATION. Now if you're one of those people who can't stop at just on bite or one serving then it may be easier to simply eliminate the food completely but that's an individualistic need not a generalized one.

Regardless, you've made progress and that's all that counts. Congrats once again brother.

[Friesian]

Yes, that's me. Thanks for your kind words.
I believe you may well be right about the whole energy regulation issue. Although I would ask your opinion on the fact the OP's only carb source being simple carbs from milk? Like you said, moderation is key, would it not be true then that some complex carbs being used to take the place of the aforementioned might be beneficial? Even if just to break up the monotony slightly.

[Docd187123]

Yes, that's me. Thanks for your kind words.
I believe you may well be right about the whole energy regulation issue. Although I would ask your opinion on the fact the OP's only carb source being simple carbs from milk? Like you said, moderation is key, would it not be true then that some complex carbs being used to take the place of the aforementioned might be beneficial? Even if just to break up the monotony slightly.

Yes you're right, he would probably benefit if he varied his carb sources (as with any macro) but not necessarily bc it'll have a direct impact on body comp nor do they necessarily have to be complex carbs. If he's lacking certain micros than complex carbs may be a better option as they normally have great micronutrient profiles. Oats for instance would help add fiber, broccoli would add tons of vitamins and minerals/antioxidants, etc. There a a few basic principles that all diets must adhere to to get results you desire. All the extra 'fluff' is personal choice. Meeting calorie and macro needs is arguably the biggest factor but consistency is up there as well. Your point on monotony is very important. I can't eat the same things day in day out without getting tired of them which breaks my diet. That is reason enough for me to get other sources for carbs but it may not be an issue for OP.

[Friesian]

Yes you're right, he would probably benefit if he varied his carb sources (as with any macro) but not necessarily bc it'll have a direct impact on body comp nor do they necessarily have to be complex carbs. If he's lacking certain micros than complex carbs may be a better option as they normally have great micronutrient profiles. Oats for instance would help add fiber, broccoli would add tons of vitamins and minerals/antioxidants, etc. There a a few basic principles that all diets must adhere to to get results you desire. All the extra 'fluff' is personal choice. Meeting calorie and macro needs is arguably the biggest factor but consistency is up there as well. Your point on monotony is very important. I can't eat the same things day in day out without getting tired of them which breaks my diet. That is reason enough for me to get other sources for carbs but it may not be an issue for OP.

I feel bad for hijacking the OP's thread like this but got a couple more questions. It's maybe going to sound a bit of a tenuous link but anyway. For me personally, it makes me feel psychologically better to consume complex carbs, whether this is a placebo effect I am unsure. But would this psychological boost perhaps turn into a physiological response in terms of hormones, in particular dopamine and seratonin, which would in turn help to inhibit cortisol, etc. and allow a possibly more productive state in which to train? Again, I base this wholly on how complex carbs affect me personally and my own perceptions.

[Docd187123]

I feel bad for hijacking the OP's thread like this but got a couple more questions. It's maybe going to sound a bit of a tenuous link but anyway. For me personally, it makes me feel psychologically better to consume complex carbs, whether this is a placebo effect I am unsure. But would this psychological boost perhaps turn into a physiological response in terms of hormones, in particular dopamine and seratonin, which would in turn help to inhibit cortisol, etc. and allow a possibly more productive state in which to train? Again, I base this wholly on how complex carbs affect me personally and my own perceptions.

Placebo is a powerful drug, it's why they have control groups in studies to take into account the effect of placebo .

About nutrition mediated serotonin response:

It can, but in a roundabout way. Unlike calcium-rich foods, which can directly increase your blood levels of this mineral, there are no foods that can directly increase your body’s supply of serotonin. That said, there are foods and some nutrients that can increase levels of tryptophan, the amino acid from which serotonin is made.

Eating a carbohydrate-rich meal will have your body trigger a release of insulin. This in turn causes any amino acids in the blood to be absorbed into the body except for tryptophan. It remains in the bloodstream at high levels following a carbohydrate meal, which means it can freely enter the brain and cause serotonin levels to rise.

Getting an adequate supply of vitamin B-6, which can influence the rate at which tryptophan is converted to serotonin.

APA Reference
Psych Central. (2008). Frequently Asked Questions about Serotonin. Psych Central. Retrieved on March 9, 2014

Another great read that has to do with neurotransmitter and obesity, there's a part two if you google for it:

Whole Health Source: The Case for the Food Reward Hypothesis of Obesity, Part I

And one more by Lyle McDonald:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...ession-qa.html

While diet can affect neurotransmitters in the brain the effect usually isn't as drastic as you may think. Protein for instance counteracts the affect of carbs on serotonin release. Again, moderation is normally the best bet. And if you're an otherwise healthy active individual your body will optimally regulate production of neurotransmitters as it needs to. Worrying about this IMO is akin to worrying about that 0.000001% and driving yourself crazy while forgetting the other 99.999999%.

Unless you have high cortisol levels, verified through blood work or saliva testing (and chronically high cortisol not one quick reading), there's no need to reduce cortisol levels. Just like insulin it's oftentimes misunderstood bc it has the nametag of being a catabolic hormone.