Pre-cycle Experiment - Testosterone Enanthate SubQ vs IM - ED pins

[RangerDanger830]

Well after a brief search I did find one peer-reviewed article stating that Subq TRT injections did produce results. However, they were not compared to IM injections. They just said Subq works, but not how well.

Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A p... [Saudi Med J. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

This guy did post blood work. This is by no means conclusive evidence but it is enough to make me suspcious.

http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...m-labwork.html

For the sake of fairness this one seems to err towards Subq...

WHICH TESTOSTERONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY? - CANTRILL - 2008 - Clinical Endocrinology - Wiley Online Library

And this one describes the biology of injections a little better.

Release and absorption rates of intramuscularly and subcutaneously injected pharmaceuticals (II)

Having read a few articles on it, it seems as though an oil based test solution injected IM would produce higher peak test levels but they would be absorbed much more quickly whereas subc oil based test seems to produce lower levels due to a slower release which seems to be conducive to TRT patients. If I am interpreting this data wrong please let me know.

[NoBulkNoCutJustGrow]

I did halfway expect the injections to go smoothly. I am really curious into the bioavailability of doing it that way. I really wish you could do weekly bloods.

Next week I'm planning on getting my first set of bloods; couldn't get around it this week. They're coming though so keep an eye out.

Well after a brief search I did find one peer-reviewed article stating that Subq TRT injections did produce results. However, they were not compared to IM injections. They just said Subq works, but not how well.

Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A p... [Saudi Med J. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

This guy did post blood work. This is by no means conclusive evidence but it is enough to make me suspcious.

http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...m-labwork.html

For the sake of fairness this one seems to err towards Subq...

WHICH TESTOSTERONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY? - CANTRILL - 2008 - Clinical Endocrinology - Wiley Online Library

And this one describes the biology of injections a little better.

Release and absorption rates of intramuscularly and subcutaneously injected pharmaceuticals (II)

Having read a few articles on it, it seems as though an oil based test solution injected IM would produce higher peak test levels but they would be absorbed much more quickly whereas subc oil based test seems to produce lower levels due to a slower release which seems to be conducive to TRT patients. If I am interpreting this data wrong please let me know.

Great info compile!

What I get so far from the research is that SubQ injections since they release slower into the blood stream, they create a more steady release of hormone which in turns doesn't allow for the same peaks that IM injections produce which reduces the chances of negative side affects which would be why TRT patients are more prescribed to this route. Now, higher peaks might mean more gains, but I have yet to come across any scientific studies or papers to back this up; I am like you a man of science. IMO you can also argue that a more steady and stable blood hormone level might also mean more gains in the long run. Not just that but the addition of ED pinning adds an extra layer of stability in terms of hormone levels in the blood.

With this tool I used : PCT Calculator | Post Cycle Therapy Calculator, you can see the levels of hormone in the blood ED vs E3D. IMO this result can also be related to SubQ vs IM because the more steady release of the hormone, it's the same model. As you can see the first set is 100 mg ED which is what I'm doing (but SubQ, this is for IM injections I believe) and the second is 350 mg 2x per week. The results speak for themselves, check it out.

100 mg ED

Day 1: 100mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 2: 190.6mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 3: 272.6mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 4: 346.9mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 5: 414.2mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 6: 475.2mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 7: 530.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 8: 580.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 9: 625.7mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 10: 666.7mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 11: 703.8mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 12: 737.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 13: 767.9mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 14: 795.5mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 15: 820.5mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 16: 843.1mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 17: 863.6mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 18: 882.2mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 19: 899mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 20: 914.2mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 21: 928mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 22: 940.5mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 23: 951.8mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 24: 962.1mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 25: 971.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 26: 979.8mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 27: 987.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 28: 994.3mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 29: 1000.6mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 30: 1006.3mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 31: 1011.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 32: 1016mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 33: 1020.2mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 34: 1024mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 35: 1027.5mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 36: 1030.6mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 37: 1033.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 38: 1036mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 39: 1038.3mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 40: 1040.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 41: 1042.3mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 42: 1044mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 43: 1045.6mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 44: 1047mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 45: 1048.3mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 46: 1049.5mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 47: 1050.6mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 48: 1051.6mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 49: 1052.5mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 50: 1053.3mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 51: 1054mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 52: 1054.6mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 53: 1055.2mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 54: 1055.7mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 55: 1056.2mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 56: 1056.6mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 57: 1057mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 58: 1057.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 59: 1057.7mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 60: 1058mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 61: 1058.3mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 62: 1058.5mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 63: 1058.7mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 64: 1058.9mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 65: 1059.1mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 66: 1059.3mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 67: 1059.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 68: 1059.5mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 69: 1059.6mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 70: 1059.7mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 71: 1059.8mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 72: 1059.9mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 73: 1060mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 74: 1060.1mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 75: 1060.2mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 76: 1060.3mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 77: 1060.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 78: 1060.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 79: 1060.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 80: 1060.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 81: 1060.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 82: 1060.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 83: 1060.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 84: 1060.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 85: 1060.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day

350 mg 2x / week:

Day 1: 350mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 2: 317mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 3: 287.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 4: 260mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 5: 568.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 6: 515mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 7: 466.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 8: 772.5mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 9: 699.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 10: 633.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 11: 573.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 12: 852.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 13: 772.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 14: 699.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 15: 983.7mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 16: 891.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 17: 807mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 18: 730.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 19: 995.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 20: 901.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 21: 816.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 22: 1089.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 23: 986.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 24: 893.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 25: 809.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 26: 1066.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 27: 965.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 28: 874.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 29: 1142.2mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 30: 1034.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 31: 937mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 32: 848.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 33: 1101.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 34: 997.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 35: 903.8mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 36: 1168.6mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 37: 1058.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 38: 958.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 39: 868.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 40: 1119.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 41: 1013.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 42: 918.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 43: 1181.8mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 44: 1070.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 45: 969.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 46: 878mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 47: 1128.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 48: 1021.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 49: 925.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 50: 1188.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 51: 1076.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 52: 974.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 53: 882.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 54: 1132.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 55: 1026mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 56: 929.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 57: 1191.7mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 58: 1079.4mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 59: 977.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 60: 885.3mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 61: 1134.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 62: 1028mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 63: 931.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 64: 1193.4mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 65: 1080.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 66: 979mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 67: 886.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 68: 1136.1mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 69: 1029mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 70: 932mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 71: 1194.2mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 72: 1081.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 73: 979.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 74: 887.2mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 75: 1136.6mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 76: 1029.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 77: 932.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 78: 1194.6mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day
Day 79: 1082mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 80: 980mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 81: 887.5mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 82: 1136.9mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 83: 1029.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 84: 932.7mg T, 0mg E/D/T
Day 85: 1194.8mg T, 0mg E/D/TInjection Day

As you can see the less steady release of the hormone gave higher peaks but numerous ups and downs; the ED pinning gave lower peaks but a much more steady release of the hormone, specially towards the last 8 weeks. These result can also be related to SubQ injections IMO.

I'll keep digging and keep this thread posted as I go along guys. Good to have some company, thanks for tuning in.

[nidhogg]

Well after a brief search I did find one peer-reviewed article stating that Subq TRT injections did produce results. However, they were not compared to IM injections. They just said Subq works, but not how well.


Having read a few articles on it, it seems as though an oil based test solution injected IM would produce higher peak test levels but they would be absorbed much more quickly whereas subc oil based test seems to produce lower levels due to a slower release which seems to be conducive to TRT patients. If I am interpreting this data wrong please let me know.

The problem with the experiment above is that when people do bloodwork for sub-q they expect the peak to be on an equal time scale as IM injections. Think of it this way, if SC injections really had such a slow absorption rate, then there would be a massive steroid buildup and the steady state peak would be well beyond expected. But that doesnt really happen, instead you see people report lesser testosterone levels compared to IM. The only explaination in this case is that subq absorbs faster than IM and since testosterone has a very short half life it would requires more frequent pinning.

But for other gear with much longer halflife tren, deca, eq etc it wouldnt really matter