Protein intake theory revised and abandoning 40/40/20???

[Deal Me In]

Yeah, I know it's all experimentation. I just want to make sure I'm using the best starting point I can. Like I said, I've been struggling with gaining fat and it would appear I've been way over on calories. I'm going to lower them and do exactly what you said. Just keep checking everything every 21 days and seeing where I stand.

For what it's worth, I played around with the bodyfat number and it really didn't change that much. A change of 2% only led to a 50 calorie change in TDEE so even if I'm off a little I feel comfortable using it until I can get a bodpod scan.

And that's exactly what I was assuming about women. That they needed less protein for those reasons. Good to know. I struggle to get my wife to eat enough anyway.

[Deal Me In]

And for my next question. Do I base my macros on the stats I want or the stats I have?

[Docd187123]

And for my next question. Do I base my macros on the stats I want or the stats I have?

Either works but realize if you base your overall calorie consumption on the stats you want to have (target bodyweight or lean body mass) you will begin with a larger surplus of calories and as you gain weight the surplus gets less until you reach a new maintenance point...assuming bulking. It would work opposite with cutting, a larger deficit in the beginning and smaller and smaller as you near the target bodyweight. This could lead to slightly more fat gain in the beginning or possible muscle loss depending.

Most people base their macros off their current stats and adjust slightly up or down depending on the goal, ie cut or bulk, while others like Alan Aragon uses target bodyweight for the protein macro for example while keeping the caloric surplus or deficit consistent wih his client's goal.

[Times Roman]

Thanks Doc. This fits in nicely with what TR is telling me. My local gym is bringing in one of those dunk tanks next month. I was going to sign up for that. Are those as accurate as a bodpod? I've never used anything other than calipers.

Second, is there a separate equation to figure TDEE using LBM or do you use the standard one and just substitute LBM for body weight?

Dexa scans and BodPods are the leaders in accurate body comp measurements as far as I'm aware of. There are sites online with locators of each close to home. You can even google bodpod or dexa scan and the name of your city and ones close to you should pop up.

The most accurate TDEE formula IF you have accurate body comp measurements is the Katch-McArdle formula:

BMR (both men and women) = 370 + ( 21.6 x lean body mass in kg )

Then simply multiply by an activity factor to get TDEE from BMR

One more thing, does the 1.25g/lb apply to women also? I need to know if I need to completely redo my wife's diet also. Thanks again guys.

There are flaws with both the Harris-Benedict equation and the Katch-McArdle equation. It would have been great if the Harris-Benedict equation utilized LBM instead of total body weight, but it does not. Although the Katch-McArdle equation utilizes LBM, it fails in other areas, such as age and gender which are valid variables. Rationale is that everything else being the same, two people at 210 lbs and 13% bf and male, only difference is one is 25 and the other is 52, the older bull will have a slower metabolism and a lower TDEE. So you can use which ever you prefer, however, I was able to validate Harris-Benedict TDEE on myself and found it reasonably accurate.

[Times Roman]

And for my next question. Do I base my macros on the stats I want or the stats I have?

Either works but realize if you base your overall calorie consumption on the stats you want to have (target bodyweight or lean body mass) you will begin with a larger surplus of calories and as you gain weight the surplus gets less until you reach a new maintenance point...assuming bulking. It would work opposite with cutting, a larger deficit in the beginning and smaller and smaller as you near the target bodyweight. This could lead to slightly more fat gain in the beginning or possible muscle loss depending.

Most people base their macros off their current stats and adjust slightly up or down depending on the goal, ie cut or bulk, while others like Alan Aragon uses target bodyweight for the protein macro for example while keeping the caloric surplus or deficit consistent wih his client's goal.

^this.

but however you want to formulate it, whether maintain, bulk or cut, you are going to make an adjustment (X calories for bulk, -X for cut and 0 for maintain). Once you have an interactive spreadsheet set up, recalculating your TDEE based on your new stats becomes an easy task.

[Deal Me In]

After thinking about this for a couple of days I think what you did is the best option. I think I need to determine my personal TDEE before I try to accomplish anything. It seems that until I know that, I'm doing to much guessing. So, in order to accomplish this I plan to set up a series of 21 day experiments. My questions is, what is the best metric for determining if I'm successful?

The easy answer would seem to be if I go 21 days without a change in body weight but this seems to not take into account a change in BF. If we assume that at the moment, getting a bodpod scan every 3 weeks in not practical, is there another way to determine when I've found what my TDEE is by using a scale.

I've been eating above maintenance and slowly gaining weight but I know some of it is fat. If I'm able to maintain a certain weight for 3 weeks would this mean I was pretty close to my personal TDEE for my current body? Basically, any fat I was losing was being replaced by muscle? This doesn't seem right to me.

I'm all about keeping it as simple as I can but if I need to be using some other metric please let me know.

[Docd187123]

After thinking about this for a couple of days I think what you did is the best option. I think I need to determine my personal TDEE before I try to accomplish anything. It seems that until I know that, I'm doing to much guessing. So, in order to accomplish this I plan to set up a series of 21 day experiments. My questions is, what is the best metric for determining if I'm successful?

The easy answer would seem to be if I go 21 days without a change in body weight but this seems to not take into account a change in BF. If we assume that at the moment, getting a bodpod scan every 3 weeks in not practical, is there another way to determine when I've found what my TDEE is by using a scale.

I've been eating above maintenance and slowly gaining weight but I know some of it is fat. If I'm able to maintain a certain weight for 3 weeks would this mean I was pretty close to my personal TDEE for my current body? Basically, any fat I was losing was being replaced by muscle? This doesn't seem right to me.

I'm all about keeping it as simple as I can but if I need to be using some other metric please let me know.

Weight and tape measure measurements are probably the most economical way to go about it. You won't lost any significant amount of fat or gain a significant amount of muscle in a span of 21days so I wouldn't worry too much about the minute details.

[Times Roman]

Weight and tape measure measurements are probably the most economical way to go about it. You won't lost any significant amount of fat or gain a significant amount of muscle in a span of 21days so I wouldn't worry too much about the minute details.

^this.

I wish I can easily fluctuate my bf% in only 21 days!

your best tool is the daily scale to see your weight.

21 days could be long enough to see if your average daily rate weight variance is stable. I went a couple of months to gather enough data to be positive.

The other tihing is EVERYTHING has to remain constant. Activity level, macro split, that sort of thing.

The problem with tdee is that it is only accurate at a particular activity level. So I suggest anticipating what ever activity level you expect to be performing at, and then maintain THAT activity level. Even a change in activity level, like going from 4 to 5 days a week in the gym will change your multiplier. No matter how accurate you think you have it, it is STILL only an estimate.

[Docd187123]

^this.

I wish I can easily fluctuate my bf% in only 21 days!

your best tool is the daily scale to see your weight.

21 days could be long enough to see if your average daily rate weight variance is stable. I went a couple of months to gather enough data to be positive.

The other tihing is EVERYTHING has to remain constant. Activity level, macro split, that sort of thing.

The problem with tdee is that it is only accurate at a particular activity level. So I suggest anticipating what ever activity level you expect to be performing at, and then maintain THAT activity level. Even a change in activity level, like going from 4 to 5 days a week in the gym will change your multiplier. No matter how accurate you think you have it, it is STILL only an estimate.

Absolutely correct^^^

DealMeIn: if you have the spare money on hand you can also buy an activity counter/meter like FitBit or Basis for example which are 'smart' pedometers with special algorithms to count how many calories you burn throughout the day. You wear them and connect them to an app on the phone or computer and you can track some of your vitals as well as get a good estimate of the calories you burn each day.

[marcus300]

lol for fuks sake guys get fuking training instead of mirco managing your nutrition, lmfao

[Deal Me In]

Absolutely correct^^^

DealMeIn: if you have the spare money on hand you can also buy an activity counter/meter like FitBit or Basis for example which are 'smart' pedometers with special algorithms to count how many calories you burn throughout the day. You wear them and connect them to an app on the phone or computer and you can track some of your vitals as well as get a good estimate of the calories you burn each day.

I've been wondering about those. I've been kicking around the idea of getting one but wasn't sure if it was just marketing. I'll take another look at them.

Second question, if 21 days isn't long enough, how long to you suggest. Is 60 days enough time to try and establish a baseline? I don't mind putting in the work I just want to make sure I'm not wasting my time.

[Docd187123]

21 days is fine. You've got to realize your TDEE changes daily, your portion sizes will be off here and there, etc. No way you'll get it 100% on the dot but if you haven't changed weight and measurements after 3wks chances are you're pretty damn close to your TDEE.

[Deal Me In]

21 days is fine. You've got to realize your TDEE changes daily, your portion sizes will be off here and there, etc. No way you'll get it 100% on the dot but if you haven't changed weight and measurements after 3wks chances are you're pretty damn close to your TDEE.

Thank you. I know it will never be exact. But I also know I need a big enough sample size to be relevant. I was just concerned that if I got too long there would be too many variables. I need a time that is long enough to be statistically significant. I'm still working on putting the new diet together but will start soon.

Thanks for all the help.

[Times Roman]

Thank you. I know it will never be exact. But I also know I need a big enough sample size to be relevant. I was just concerned that if I got too long there would be too many variables. I need a time that is long enough to be statistically significant. I'm still working on putting the new diet together but will start soon.

Thanks for all the help.

the smaller your daily caloric variance from tdee, the shorter time period you need.

[Times Roman]

lol for fuks sake guys get fuking training instead of mirco managing your nutrition, lmfao

sorry for droning on and on mate...

...just trying to wrap my mind around this issue.

Should be through here shortly.

Thanks for the patience

---Roman

[marcus300]

sorry for droning on and on mate...

...just trying to wrap my mind around this issue.

Should be through here shortly.

Thanks for the patience

---Roman

Try wrapping your mind around a basic diet and hardcore training and stop mirco managing your nutrition then you may see results. Ive seen many guys think to much about basic stuff and still look like shit. You want to move on and stick with the basic principles - train like a god and eat to feed new tissue growth and maintain your tissue. Check out Dorian Yates diet and nutrition advice its all over youtube and you may just start seeing improvements.

[marcus300]

Sorry guys, i'll stay out of your thread I just found it funny as fuk. But I can assure you all I wont be eating sweet corn to monitor my stools

[RaginCajun]

Sorry guys, i'll stay out of your thread I just found it funny as fuk. But I can assure you all I wont be eating sweet corn to monitor my stools

hahaha!

[Times Roman]

Try wrapping your mind around a basic diet and hardcore training and stop mirco managing your nutrition then you may see results. Ive seen many guys think to much about basic stuff and still look like shit. You want to move on and stick with the basic principles - train like a god and eat to feed new tissue growth and maintain your tissue. Check out Dorian Yates diet and nutrition advice its all over youtube and you may just start seeing improvements.

results are not the issue.

the issue is gaining an understanding of a concept. and trying to understand how things work.

I'm an analytical type, and when something doesn't add up, I want to understand why.

I suppose this makes me more curious than most.

Nothing wrong with that, is there?

[Docd187123]

results are not the issue.

the issue is gaining an understanding of a concept. and trying to understand how things work.

I'm an analytical type, and when something doesn't add up, I want to understand why.

I suppose this makes me more curious than most.

Nothing wrong with that, is there?

Not at all IMO seeing as I'm the same way lol

[Deal Me In]

results are not the issue.

the issue is gaining an understanding of a concept. and trying to understand how things work.

I'm an analytical type, and when something doesn't add up, I want to understand why.

I suppose this makes me more curious than most.

Nothing wrong with that, is there?

My thoughts exactly. I want to understand what's going on with my body. Plus I really enjoy the intellectual challenge of it.

[Little ant]

ok, so some interesting points have been made in this thread, but I still don't know what macro split is optimal. And here is what i have been able to figure out from reading all of these posts.... eat a lot of clean food and lift heavy the only time I need to worry about my macros is when needing to cut. Is that about the gist of it?

[Khazima]

ok, so some interesting points have been made in this thread, but I still don't know what macro split is optimal. And here is what i have been able to figure out from reading all of these posts.... eat a lot of clean food and lift heavy the only time I need to worry about my macros is when needing to cut. Is that about the gist of it?

You need to count macros all the time to make sure you're getting the right surplus/deficit, or hitting maintenance. Ideal macros are 1-1.5g protein per pound of LBM, IMO between 80-120 fat is ideal and fill the rest of your macros with carbs.

[Little ant]

You need to count macros all the time to make sure you're getting the right surplus/deficit, or hitting maintenance. Ideal macros are 1-1.5g protein per pound of LBM, IMO between 80-120 fat is ideal and fill the rest of your macros with carbs.

Thank you for the correction. And thank you for giving me the fat intake also I can figure out the rest on my own.

[hawk14dl]

As a simplification (if I may)

Lbm only requires so much protein to maintain. In your description, that's 1.25-1.5g/lb lbm

The remainder of the calories (carbs/fats) is the amount necessary to provide the body enough energy to maintain that lbm.

By that logic, if one were to consume too much protein, they wouldn't leave enough calories for carb/fat, wouldn't have enough energy to maintain their lbm and may actually have a detrimental effect.

I have actually experienced that personally, I was consuming below my tdee, but way more protein then necessary. I was excessively tired, actually gained weight, even at a deficit. It had me stumped for quite a while

[Times Roman]

ok, so some interesting points have been made in this thread, but I still don't know what macro split is optimal. And here is what i have been able to figure out from reading all of these posts.... eat a lot of clean food and lift heavy the only time I need to worry about my macros is when needing to cut. Is that about the gist of it?

As a simplification (if I may)

Lbm only requires so much protein to maintain. In your description, that's 1.25-1.5g/lb lbm

The remainder of the calories (carbs/fats) is the amount necessary to provide the body enough energy to maintain that lbm.

By that logic, if one were to consume too much protein, they wouldn't leave enough calories for carb/fat, wouldn't have enough energy to maintain their lbm and may actually have a detrimental effect.

I have actually experienced that personally, I was consuming below my tdee, but way more protein then necessary. I was excessively tired, actually gained weight, even at a deficit. It had me stumped for quite a while

maybe already answered, but there is no ideal macro split.

no more than 1.5grams/protein per pound of LBM. Subtract these protein calories from your caloric target. The rest comes from carbs/fat. As a rule of thumb, I try to get twice as many calories from carbs as from fat, but I'm not overly concerned either way, as long as from, more or less, whole foods. Again, just a guideline.

[Buster Brown]

Just a quick thought here and that is I think most of us go a little overboard with the protein intake whilst on cycle due to the fact that we are hoping that the AAS increases protein synthesis to the point that we can utilize 1.5 to 2 grams of protein per each pound of lbm. Unfortunately there is no table to tell us what amount of protein is synthesized per amount of AAS used. It's like wondering at what rate are new muscle cells made (hyperplasia) when using what amount of hgh and for how long.

[Times Roman]

Just a quick thought here and that is I think most of us go a little overboard with the protein intake whilst on cycle due to the fact that we are hoping that the AAS increases protein synthesis to the point that we can utilize 1.5 to 2 grams of protein per each pound of lbm. Unfortunately there is no table to tell us what amount of protein is synthesized per amount of AAS used. It's like wondering at what rate are new muscle cells made (hyperplasia) when using what amount of hgh and for how long.

tren makes available macros more efficient which is why previously given to cattle before slaughter. That just makes the feed more efficient. What I don't know is if it increases the overall amount of protein the body can utilize, or if it changes the maximum utilization rate.

Some of this we will never really know beyond anecdotal information and personal observation.

[Buster Brown]

tren makes available macros more efficient which is why previously given to cattle before slaughter. That just makes the feed more efficient. What I don't know is if it increases the overall amount of protein the body can utilize, or if it changes the maximum utilization rate. Some of this we will never really know beyond anecdotal information and personal observation.

I totally agree with you 100%. I never go beyond 1.5 grams of protein in my diet. One thing that has been pointed out to me and it may be a little off track but look at some of the Eastern European and Russian strength athletes who I have been told actually follow a poor diet and what they achieve. So it also appears that it comes down to what combination of training, diet and genetics. As a rule of thumb I believe in clean calories and that's important to know how much you are consuming for a baseline in order to make adjustments to assist me in my goal. Nice write up as usual.

[Docd187123]

I totally agree with you 100%. I never go beyond 1.5 grams of protein in my diet. One thing that has been pointed out to me and it may be a little off track but look at some of the Eastern European and Russian strength athletes who I have been told actually follow a poor diet and what they achieve. So it also appears that it comes down to what combination of training, diet and genetics. As a rule of thumb I believe in clean calories and that's important to know how much you are consuming for a baseline in order to make adjustments to assist me in my goal. Nice write up as usual.

IMO a poor diet is only one that doesn't accomplish your goals. If the Russians and other eastern bloc lifters get amazing results then it means their diet really wasn't that poor.

[Deal Me In]

Just to update on this idea. Using this advice, I reduced my protein intake about 3 weeks ago to fit into the 1.25/g/lbm and I'm very happy with the results. I kept everything else about my diet and exercise the same and I've started getting leaner. I think I've found my TDEE because my weight hasn't changed in about 2 weeks but I'm losing body fat.

Thanks again TR. This really helped me. I was just eating way to much protein because I thought you had to shoot for 2g and it was just getting stored as fat. I'll continue to play with my diet to get back to gaining a little weight but this has really helped me understand.

[Buster Brown]

IMO a poor diet is only one that doesn't accomplish your goals. If the Russians and other eastern bloc lifters get amazing results then it means their diet really wasn't that poor.

My trainer Ed Puoplo who trained with them as a power lifter has quite a different story. I was suprised as well but I am not going to doubt a man who has spent his entire life in the sport and no reason to lie.

[Khazima]

My trainer Ed Puoplo who trained with them as a power lifter has quite a different story. I was suprised as well but I am not going to doubt a man who has spent his entire life in the sport and no reason to lie.

I agree you certainly can have a sub-par diet and achieve the same muscle gain/loss and weightlifting results but it will affect overall performance and more importantly, health.

[Buster Brown]

I agree you certainly can have a sub-par diet and achieve the same muscle gain/loss and weightlifting results but it will affect overall performance and more importantly, health.

Food is certainly important and making good food choices while cutting is especially where it would shine but genetics are as big a deciding factor in overall health and performance then anything that you will put in your mouth.

[Docd187123]

I agree you certainly can have a sub-par diet and achieve the same muscle gain/loss and weightlifting results but it will affect overall performance and more importantly, health.

If one achieved the same musle gain/fat loss then how is overall performance affected?

[Khazima]

If one achieved the same musle gain/fat loss then how is overall performance affected?

I honestly don't have an answer to that right now, good point. I definitely feel a lot better overall and feel like I perform better when eating cleaner food.

[Times Roman]

Food is certainly important and making good food choices while cutting is especially where it would shine but genetics are as big a deciding factor in overall health and performance then anything that you will put in your mouth.

there is no denying this. we've all see that "thick" bloke that has never lifted before. thick calves, thick arms, just thick all over. that's one helluva starting point, no question about it. so his challenge is not to get big in the usual sense, but more simply to harden up and lose bf%. Within three years, a bloke like that can look fairly impressive given the right training.

Compare that to the stereotypical ectomorph, where he not only has to lose Bf%, but also to gain significant muscle mass. It could take someone like this upwards of seven years to achieve the same thing.

Body type and overall genetics I would say is probably half the battle.

But that doesn't mean the arena is reserved only for them. Substantial gains can be made by anyone.

[Times Roman]

I was wanting to start a discussion as to whether or not grams/day is the right "unit of measure". I'm thinking "day" is not the right denominator. So I was trying to think of what the right denominator would be, as "per day" is not a good metabolic unit of measure. I was thinking "throughput time" would be more accurate. problem here is this is variable, and not only can change between individuals, but over time, with the individual as well. So instead, would it be the amount of time from the stomach to the end of the small intestine? That throughput time? This would have to be a theoretical discussion, but could still be interesting, none the less.

[Docd187123]

I was wanting to start a discussion as to whether or not grams/day is the right "unit of measure". I'm thinking "day" is not the right denominator. So I was trying to think of what the right denominator would be, as "per day" is not a good metabolic unit of measure. I was thinking "throughput time" would be more accurate. problem here is this is variable, and not only can change between individuals, but over time, with the individual as well. So instead, would it be the amount of time from the stomach to the end of the small intestine? That throughput time? This would have to be a theoretical discussion, but could still be interesting, none the less.

I think grams per day is a perfectly fine measure. There's no way you could accurately measure throughput time at home much less keep it constant. A few extra grams of fiber in one meal for instance would hangs throughput time. A few less grams of carbs, etc.

[Docd187123]

I honestly don't have an answer to that right now, good point. I definitely feel a lot better overall and feel like I perform better when eating cleaner food.

My initial point about commenting on poor diets is that the Russians did/do amazingly well in lifting. Diet is a significant component of that success. How could it be a poor diet if they're getting exactly the results they want? Are health consequences a measure of poor diet? Well for elite lifters health takes a backseat to performance so again, is the diet really that poor? IMO it is not.