Knowledgeable Member
While on cycle you are right, NO DRINKING (or other req things). Your body does need to have sleep. Your body needs to have that parasympathetic system working so your body can recover. Try to go to bed and get up and the same time everyday and you will see a huge difference.Originally Posted by Jangles1
- MONITOR -
Ok.....
Last edited by Capebuffalo; 11-28-2017 at 05:46 PM.
Knowledgeable Member
Base on a few things you posted I would like to offer a suggestion. Work on your core and your shoulders. I know you have a history of the shoulder injury but you need to work them hard with light weight. Those 3 and 5 pound weights are your best friend and you will learn to have a love/hate relatioship with them. I think doing a lot of Planks will pay off huge for your as well for both your core and shoulders. Again, just a suggestion based on your photos.
BANNED
3 pound weights ? I'm confused, what type of shoulder exercises are we talking about here?
my approach to big shoulders, thickness, and roundness is to progressively overload strict over head press. start with 135 lbs and work up to doing 225 for reps. shoulders won't have a choice but to grow . add 5-10 pounds every couple weeks
Knowledgeable Member
When you get done with that workout pick up the the 5-pound weights and lift them 90, 45 and straight out until muscle failure in sets of 3. Then go to 3 pounds and repeat it.
GearHead, your shoulders are huge. I was basing this on his pictures and history of shoulder injury. You already have a great foundation and as you know if your shoulders are the foundation for the rest of your upper body. I have had bylateral shoulder surgey twice and ending my shoulder workout with those weights makes a huge difference.
Last edited by David LoPan; 11-28-2017 at 06:49 PM.
BANNED
ok this makes sense doing this AFTER the main workout and compounds are finished . imagine your driving a lot of blood and metabolites and getting a fairly painful pump doing this high reps to failure
from my experience building that 'foundation' is best done by progressively overloading relatively heavy, but strict form, compound lifts . like I said if he started over head pressing 135 pounds today , and over a years time adds weight every couple a weeks and gets to say 225 pounds , then his foundation will be much more developed .
adding in some accessory work and metabolite training like you suggest is beneficial as well , but the meat and potatoes should be focused on compound lifts Imo
Knowledgeable Member
I should have stated after your normal shoulder workout. You are 100% correct on the rest. I do have to do a few shoulder shrugs with heavyweight after this and I pray I do not have to wipe my butt that night due to I can't lift my arms. Doing this has kept the ortho away and given me excellent results.
Member
Im doing
4 sets of overhead
4 sets of front raise
4 sets of side lat rases
then 2 types of shrugs, both 4 sets (dumbell and barebell)
Surely this is plenty to grow my shoulders ?
Last edited by Jangles1; 11-29-2017 at 05:24 AM.
Member
Cool diet.
Way too much fat for me atm though. My Protein atm is more than 1.5 per lbs, so rather keep fats low and carbs higher for energy.
Member
Yeah that would be counter productive. Even with Xmas coming up, I knew I was startig this cycle, so I wont be drinking at all on it. Not a big drinker anyway, but a typical binge drinker. Il go out 3 or 4 times a year and have a 12 hour sesh lol.
Member
Going to add planks to my abs routine now !
Knowledgeable Member
Jangles1,
I understand you are trying to learn but you look like you just got out of the Minnesota Starvation Experiment on the pictures and reading through this whole thing tells me, regardless of other comments, you need to learn how to eat. Now, if you got super fat and all the way to 200 some pounds and then dieted down again it simply shows that your nutrition experience, in regards to how your own body responds, is lacking.
In regards to training, you just posted your shoulder routine and said: "Surely this is plenty to grow my shoulders ?". No one can answer that in those simple terms as it depends on how that routine is performed. As you can see in other logs around this forum some have great success with HIT training and others with massive Volume.
As you have some basic knowledge now create an exact nutrition log and ask for feedback and let us help you grow. Look in Marcus300 **Marcus's HIT Dungeon** thread to get ideas on how those guys are training or in kronik420's "Kronik's German Volume Training log" so you have options in regards to training. And for god's sake man, do not cycle until you have this stuff somewhat figured out and do a real cycle, not this other crap because why the hell shut you down for almost a replacement dose of test. Makes absolutely no sense, AT ALL!
My 2c, not sure it's worth that much!!!
Productive Member
Agreed.
I would even go as far to say if you had nailed your training and nutrition, you would gain far more in 12 weeks naturally than running your cycle right now.
Marcus's thread is a good place to start.
If you can't grow without gear. You wont be able to hold on to muscle without gear
Last edited by hollowedzeus; 11-30-2017 at 04:34 AM.
Member
Hey both of you. First off, I DO massively appreciate 1) your experience and 2) your ability to come to a thread and be constructive while trying to help. That says a lot about your characters.
I am not one of those guys that comes and asks for help and then totally diminishes the help. I am actually a tutor in a specialised area and find it laughable when people pay me good money for tutoring and then totally ignore me. With that being said, please do not think I am one of those dicks who asks for advice and ignores answers he does not want to here. I want to learn and take on constructive feedback. It doesn't mean I will do everything people tell me, but I am open to developing my knowledge and experience more.
To the next part of this post....
I think there are some misunderstandings around this entire thread which are brought on all by myself. I believe the fair assumption you guys are raising are due to me (in hindsight) 'starting my cycle too early' (more on that below)
I know how to eat and I can grow (bare with me here). I have done plenty of times and I have changed my body comp plenty. Before I first started lifting in 2014 I was a fucking 6ft rake with a huge belly from loads of fizzy drinks and craop diet. However through training I have gone from being that horrible rake with a belly to just being tall and not as full as most people. I guess you would call it skinny.
My issue is that I never broke through to the next level (skinny to filled out with muscle) due to inconsistent training due to injury. I highlight injury because the is an important factor in this topic. Its not lack of will power or dedication. Most people would have given up years ago with my shity injurys and issues (my body shape is just not designing to lift weights. Im tall and boney and i'm really fighting my genetics). Not me, I have educated myself more and more every time I have a setback and I come back better (diet and training).
As I say as I say, although my starting pic looks bad, look at my diet on page 3. My nutrition is not an issue. I believe my training and gym knowledge is not an issue. Im not a pro but Im fairly educated on form and what is a good plan and what is a bad plan (Heavy Compound Lifts focusing on mind to muscle etc compared to a 5 week bro split doing 500 bicep curls / training mirror muscles etc.
My biggest set back has been injury after injury (3 in total with 4-6 months off in-between each one). This has meant ive not been able to pack on loads of lean mass and have always been forced to stop my bulk earlier than I planned. I kept up cardio but with out being able to lift, the majority of the gains I have made go and there was admittedly times I felt like giving up and went off the wagon for a few months. I always pulled it back thou
With this cycle I wanted to get down to 12/13% BF and start an AAS cycle to aid me a clean bulk. It took me ages to do this as I aimed to loose 0.5 / 1lbs a month. Slow and steady while always lifting.
Now I admit that I should have slowly bulked to 185 without AAS, but with my injuries I guess I was worried I would hurt myself again and while I was healthy I wanted to try ASS to assist me on this bulk. I am not arguing if this is right or wrong because I know I was inpatient looking back. But I have my reasons and thats something you simply cant answer to unless you have been through what I have with setbacks. Its the absolute worse thing in the world when you have the desire and work ethic to achieve something and cannot due to your body. I see my fat ass mates on the sofa moaning about their health and here is me with this will to change and knowledge, but keeps getting let down with injury. Its not like I am doing silly shit either. My first injury was caused due to bad form, but I learn QUICK about how to lift correctly. Unfortunately for me, that first injury set my entire arm / shoulder / back up for reoccurring injures regardless of form.
I thank you for your help and I will carry on with the final 6 weeks of this plan. So far I have put on 14lbs and am getting loads of comments how great I am looking. The gym is going amazing and I am lifting smart and not even doing crazy weight. FORM >>> WEIGHT. I feel more confident than I ever have, so whether you agree or disagree that me doing my first cycle now, I don't regret it. Even though I know I should have waited 3/6 months.
I am sure some of you will disagree with me carrying on, and thats fine. Its your opinion and you're welcome to express it on this public forum.
Just know, I am not trying to be a know a no it all. I am not claiming I know better. If I could go back to 6 weeks ago with this advice and hard hitting feedback I would do a 6 month clean bulk then do a first cycle. But I cant turn back time and I am finishing what I have started due to the massive success It is having right now and how I look and feel.
I have approach this entire process absolutely meticulously and other than starting my cycle at a low weight (silly looking back with all the feedback and knowledge I have learnt on this forum), my approach and appliance to AAS has being thorough.
Hopefully you will respect this choice and can carry on checking out the thread.
Last edited by Jangles1; 11-30-2017 at 06:09 AM.
- MONITOR -
Do you have an old picture when you were holding the most muscle. I️ ask because from your recent pictures you don’t have a base to start aas
As for your 14 lbs that going to be mostly water.
Member
No pics that stage. I was burgled and lost all my HDD pics when they stole my iMac and external.
In terms of 14lbs being water... No doubt, but thats how all Test E cycles start. Lean muscle will start to be formed in the next coming weeks.
Diet today
Breakfast
Oats
Protein Shake
Almonds
Lunch
Chicken
White Potatoes
Onion
Olive Oil
Sweetcorn
Broccoli
Dinner
Sirloin Steak
Sweet Potato
Olive Oil
Cherry Tomatmos
Green Beens
Sweetcorn
Snacks
Low fat organic natural yogurt
Protein Shake
Total will be 3500 cals with at least 280g of Protein
Its only 13.40 here and although thats what I will be having today, Its not being added into My Fitness Pal yet. I manipulate my macro consumption with each meal to ensure I get the macros I am aiming for (High Protein, Low Fat... Rest of my allowance to be filled with complex carbs.
Last edited by Jangles1; 11-30-2017 at 06:56 AM.
Member
Shoulders & Oblique & Calves today
4 sets of each.
I added calves to this routine so I can grow my genetically challenged calves. Ive read minimum 3 times a week for growth.
BB Shoulder Press
DB side raise
DB front raise
Dumbbell Shrugs
Barbell Shrugs
Standing calf raise
Seated calf raise
Oblique side bends
Oblique Ball Twist
VET
I have seen your pics and I honestly feel you should stop doing a split routine and go to full body workouts 3 days a week no cardio and focus on eating...and keep your routine simple like 2 exercises per body part 2 sets each so you would be doing a total of 10-12 sets per workout...I feel you will see better results quicker this way imho...my 2 cents for free...
Junior Member
I feel like Jangles has copped a bit of unnecessary flak from people. And I’m certainly not saying I know more than you guys, I’ve only just started my first cycle, but I can see what Jangles means.
No he is not big at the moment, and plenty of blokes have no doubt built much greater foundations before starting AAS, but I see where he’s coming from. I have looked at his progress pics so far and it is making a difference already, he’s looking much better and filling out. Will he keep it? Maybe yes, maybe no.
Either way, just because he’s not a bodybuilder naturally doesn’t mean he can’t get some genuine results from AAS. Yes he could probably achieve results with some more time and effort naturally, but some people (and I’m one) have put in a hell of a lot of work for what are really underwhelming results, and it’s frustrating as all hell knowing I don’t feel that I resemble the effort I put into the gym and diet and lifestyle in general. I think this is where Jangles is at.
I’ll be watching closely Jangles as I’m 2 weeks into my first cycle too and can’t wait for some results to start kicking in, keep up the good work, you’re already balls deep into this thing so hopefully any criticism is constructive from here on as you obviously aren’t quitting now haha, good luck mate!
Productive Member
I also completely understand where he is coming from and can appreciate why he started.
I wouldnt say he recieved any flak from us but certianly some concern. Other boards would be 'go on bro. Youre doing great'. This board is more conservative and asks if aas is really necessary for your goal. They are potentially life altering drugs so are not to be taken because you cant sort your diet out.
Hes in it for the biscuit now. I hope jangles gets wht he wants out of it without any reprecussions.
Theres plenty of guys that started off as very skinny weak guys then turned into monsters. Its very possible.
I wish the best of luck to you both.
Junior Member
Yeah I’m pretty stoked I found these forums. Has definitely made me go down a more conservative (Test E only) approach for my first cycle and all the ancillaries are emphasised as well, the info is extremely helpful
Changed Man
No one here is trying to cut him down. No one hear will tell someone what they want to hear though. Its about dedication. If you cant dedicate yourself long enough to fill out your frame naturally then AAS will be an unnecessary drama to your life.
Everyone unfamiliar withAAS thinks AAS is all about gains with as little effort as possible. One thing that initial natty traing gets you is it makes you lose that mindset. We dont lift for x number of reps and call it good. Its that failing rep we want, set after set.
This is constructive not destructive.
Everything he is looking for from this cycle he could get naturally in a few months of proper diet and training. The difference is he would keep the natty gains. What he gains from this cycle will give him two steps forward and 1.75 steps back. A good base is vital.
No one listens to experience, they want what they want and they want it now. This mindset always leads to sub par results. Thats ok though... Average are doomed to stay that way and the exceptional will rise. Half efforts reap half benefits. We have given him the advice to reap full benefits but he has chosen half benifits to do it how he thinks will be easiest.
Bodybuilding is the purest example of difficult you will find. The path of least resistance is the exact opposite of bodybuilding. We all will seek the most resistance, or we will fail miserably at our goals. We aren't performing surgery, we are tearing and regenerating muscle. The hardasses here are the best in the world at this.
I have soken my piece. Sincerly, Obs
Junior Member
I beg to differ. It’s because of the words of yourself and others on these boards that I’ve gone about my cycle in the way I have, avoiding all the other possible combinations and add on steroids available and sticking to the “boring” test e first cycle to set myself up for the long run. There are plenty of people who don’t listen, and that’s their problem, but I think it’s grossly underestimating the power of your advice to say that no one listens to it.
Not everyone wants or needs to be exceptional. I’ve resigned to the fact there will always be bigger, better, stronger guys than me. My goal is to feel as confident and comfortable in my own skin as possible and to utilise all the tools I can to make that happen, with the knowledge that the more exogenous help you get the greater the risk. At 27 and training consistently for 10+ years I believe it’s worth the risk, mainly because I have the word of yourself and others on here to guide me towards risk mitigation.
Anyway we’ve got off track and I’ve blurred the lines between my situation and Jangles’, I just have an appreciation for where he’s at, I’m not immune to the inclination that human beings have to take the easy way, in essence this isn’t really the “easy way” anyway, have a good one lads
Senior Member
Shoot your test three times a week
Eat chicken breast for protein
Eat a starch you like for carbs
Eat broccoli and green leafy vegetables so you are not stopped up like a corn cob
Minimize your fat to a decent level
HIT training is good for intermediate to advanced lifters. You are not this. You need reps at 60-70% your irep max weight...lots of reps. 10x10 your bench. 10 x 10 your military press. 10 x 20 your squats.
You will get the best results possible from the cycle from where you are starting with this advice. Getting past novice level to AAS level will require you to just do what is told and measure your results. I guarantee you will be amazed. Just honest advice from a guy who has climbed the mountain from Novice to Intermediate.
Member
I’m doing 10-12 rep range but atm.
Member
You clearly didn’t read my post. It’s not for lack of effort or dedication.
Not here to argue your opinion anyway, but why do you assume that I will loose all the muscle I put on from this cycle ?
6 week PCT
6 months minimum at a calorie surpluses before i do mini cut.
Can’t see why I would loose my added muscle tbf.
At the end of the day I’m in a 500 cal surpluss of great food and I am training 5 times a week. Take away the aas and I’m doing a normal clean bulk. Adding 500mg of test is a beginner dose and I can’t see why I would loose the lean tissue gains I make from the aas in this cycle as long as my training and diet stay the same once I finish the cycle.
Last edited by Jangles1; 12-01-2017 at 04:24 AM.
Member
Will 100 % look into this, but can you tell me more about why you feel it will benefit me ?
3 days a week is too little for me tbh. 4 min to feel in my mind I’m working hard.
ARs TOP DOG ~ MONITOR ~
Mini cut Jangles I am not trying to be mean or rude but you have nothing too cut if you get anything out of this cycle keep it and when it's time bulk again.You are only holding water right now and when your cycle is over that will be gone.And if you cut any thing you might gain you will lose.But you been told this so do wat you are going to do!
Changed Man
Lack of training and eating is exactly why you are where you are and you will lose everything you gain on this cycle aside from 5 lb. It literally works this way for everyone. You throw 20-40 lbs on something without a base and as soon as the compounds are removed you will return to your previous state with 5 lbs of lean mass you could have put on naturally.
You will never see growth like your first year of training. You will never have a cycle like your first.
No base means you won't get half the results you could.
- MONITOR -
Wasting your time Obs. He’s got it all figured out and an answer for everything.
VET
you can do it 4 days if you must but you need to realize you grow outside the gym when you are sleeping so you need rest...I feel because you are a beginner( I know you don't think you are but you are) pumping up your muscles a few times a week rather than 1x will help your overall development and since you are taking aas you should be recovering quicker that if your diet is on point...im really trying to not sound condescending here you seem to be smart enough just overthinking things...good luck...
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
Nice post Jerry.
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New Member
Sooo much flame here.
jangles, one thing to keep in mind here. There are a LOT of people on this board with incredible knowledge, and REALLY awesome for typing it out and sharing it. However, the long-term members here have a completely different goal than you, which is the very reason they are still here. You want to run a couple cycles and stabilize. Most of the folks here want to 'get as big as possible', and they frame their recommendations through that light. With that in mind all the advice you're getting here makes sense.
- Spend more time building a base (even if it's a smaller improvement), because after 5,10,15 cycles you'll be further ahead.
- Eat more and start bigger, learn to REALLY bulk. Again, makes sense because after multiple cycles you'll be further ahead than starting where you're at.
Among 99% of the population, your build is good, your discipline and routine are fantastic. But they aren't optimal if you're looking to pin for a decade and get as big as possible.
You're (currently) looking for limited (2-3) cycles to hit a specific physique, then to stop and go back to what you were doing before. That's like walking into a crossfit box at 6' 280lbs and talking about how great powerlifting is. Everyone is gonna try to convince you that you're wrong and unhealthy and not building functional muscle. But if you want to powerlift... you're probably doing well at 6' 280lbs. Same thing here.
People here with laserlike bodybuilding focus are framing your progress with their own goals and saying "this dude is doing it wrong". Which you are. Keep in mind that most people with your goal (whether they hit it or not) are going to be on this forum for a cycle or two and then gone, the guys who stick around will be running constant cycles.
Just a bit of what I've observed by reading this forum for the last few months. I'm watching your thread and finding it useful though. Keep it up.
PS A note to keep in mind though. Why do you feel you want to stop after 2-3 cycles? Is there an external limitation, or do you just feel that after 2-3 cycles it'll be 'good enough'. Cause at 30k/yr I kinda thought 50k would be pretty sweet. And at 50k I thought 100k would be sweet. And at 100k I just bought more stuff. lol Something to keep in mind, where do you want to end up... and why.
Last edited by stickynote23; 12-01-2017 at 03:09 PM.
Member
I really enjoyed reading that man,,, You seem like a cool dude! Thanks for your input
Member
Will be doing a full update at the start of week 7 (next Monday).
My blood kit arrived so I want to get my results before reporting back.
Productive Member
You doing bloods through medichecks?
Member
Correct. Hormone Test Plus. £99
This entire cycle has been costly to say thfor least, but it’s important to do things the right way !
Beach Bodybuilder ~Elite-Hall of Fame~
I don’t get how that is that much protein. It means you are drinking a massive % from shakes to hit that amount by the look of it. You have only 3 protein sources here and only 2 meals have food based protein.
Also, if somehow you are ingesting that much protein, it’s overkill unless your photos aren’t telling the full story. 1.5g per lean lb of body weight is more than enough protein. (I didn’t search your stats but you’d need at least 170 lean lbs to warrant that much protein)
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Member
The steak I had that day was 16oz Sirlon (132g of Protein) and I consume 1.5 / 2 chicken breast when I have chicken...
My shakes provide only 47.8g of protein from the powder and 28.8g from the milk.
Total calories for 2 shakes (1 scoop of protein and 400ml of semi milk per shake) is 452 calories with 76.6 g of protein.
That means 25% of my daily protein intake is from shakes. The rest is from meat, nuts and complex carbs..... The calories I consume through both shakes is a 9th of my total calorie intake a day. I do not see an issue with that?
Today I have had
2 protein shakes
Oats + Milk
Chicken
Sweet Potato
Oliva Oil (1 tsp)
Honey (1tsp)
Broccoli and Asparagus
Peas
Chicken
Beef Topside Strips
Refried Beans
Corn Tortilla
Avacdo
Olive Oil (1 Tbsp)
Organic Low Fat Yogurt
2 Cadbury Rudolph & Robin Cakes (240 calories treat meal)
4029 calories
316 P
426 C
108 F
185lbs (my current weight) x 1.5 is 277. So Im only 13g over the recommend amount with that protein intake calculator.
Last edited by Jangles1; 12-07-2017 at 03:29 PM.
Beach Bodybuilder ~Elite-Hall of Fame~
That’s a huge amount of protein in one meal, I’d be splitting it.
You are 185lbs lean? How tall are you?
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