Deca question. can i TRT with Deca? heard guys run it year round.

[Too-$mall]

no, i really like that advice. safety!

sure, i'll get bloods done soon. i'm ordering some pramipexole right now and getting more nolvadex. I've got exemestane and arimidex on hand if i need it.

sounds like really solid advice! THANK YOU

sure, i'm open to more views. keep'em coming!!!!

[Youthful55guy]

no, i really like that advice. safety!

sure, i'll get bloods done soon. i'm ordering some pramipexole right now and getting more nolvadex. I've got exemestane and arimidex on hand if i need it.

sounds like really solid advice! THANK YOU

sure, i'm open to more views. keep'em coming!!!!

I've been researching nandrolone lately for the effects you are describing, but I have yet to take any actions for it's use. Another safety factor to consider beyond it's progestin activity, is it's interaction with finasteride if you are using that compound to control T conversion to DHT. I have read that the use of a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor along with Deca Durabolin will enhance the steroid’s androgenic effects. It will actually have the opposite effect and increase the risk of androgenic side effects. Of and by itself, nandrolone will not convert to DHT, but when combined with finasteride it somehow does have an androgenic effect. I'm not sure of the mechanism, or if this is even true. I have yet to dig into the medical literature to understand this interaction (if it's even more than just bodybuilding lore).

[GearHeaded]

I've been researching nandrolone lately for the effects you are describing, but I have yet to take any actions for it's use. Another safety factor to consider beyond it's progestin activity, is it's interaction with finasteride if you are using that compound to control T conversion to DHT. I have read that the use of a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor along with Deca Durabolin will enhance the steroid’s androgenic effects. It will actually have the opposite effect and increase the risk of androgenic side effects. Of and by itself, nandrolone will not convert to DHT, but when combined with finasteride it somehow does have an androgenic effect. I'm not sure of the mechanism, or if this is even true. I have yet to dig into the medical literature to understand this interaction (if it's even more than just bodybuilding lore).

what you are reading about nandrolone and dht blockers is true. it can cause the drug to be more 'androgenic' but only on the "surface' sort of speak. in real life and real steroid user evidence its not much of an issue. for TRT guys though it could be more critical (if your trying to limit androgenic effects)

heres a very dumbed down way of thinking about how a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor would make Nanrolone more androgenic.
Deca does not convert to DHT, its converts to the very weak form DHN. but DHN is still able to bind to DHT receptors and "act" like DHT, yet not display the strong androgenic properties that actual DHT does. over time taking Deca you convert more and more to DHN and that becomes a dominant hormone (yet is not very androgenic.. ultimately you'll end up with a dick that don't work, cause you need actual DHT and androgens to work).
so being Deca converts to DHN , its not very androgenic , and in fact over time will have anti androgenic effects.
BUT . . . IF you go taking a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor you then blunt Deca from converting to DHN (a weak androgen) you don't have this effect of a very weak DHN binding to receptors instead of a very strong DHT anymore. so if you want the non androgenic effects of Deca, your better off letting it convert to its weak DHN.

^ thats really a round about kinda way of explaining how Fina can make a drug like Deca more "androgenic" (at least on paper)

[Youthful55guy]

what you are reading about nandrolone and dht blockers is true. it can cause the drug to be more 'androgenic' but only on the "surface' sort of speak. in real life and real steroid user evidence its not much of an issue. for TRT guys though it could be more critical (if your trying to limit androgenic effects)

heres a very dumbed down way of thinking about how a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor would make Nanrolone more androgenic.
Deca does not convert to DHT, its converts to the very weak form DHN. but DHN is still able to bind to DHT receptors and "act" like DHT, yet not display the strong androgenic properties that actual DHT does. over time taking Deca you convert more and more to DHN and that becomes a dominant hormone (yet is not very androgenic.. ultimately you'll end up with a dick that don't work, cause you need actual DHT and androgens to work).
so being Deca converts to DHN , its not very androgenic , and in fact over time will have anti androgenic effects.
BUT . . . IF you go taking a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor you then blunt Deca from converting to DHN (a weak androgen) you don't have this effect of a very weak DHN binding to receptors instead of a very strong DHT anymore. so if you want the non androgenic effects of Deca, your better off letting it convert to its weak DHN.

^ thats really a round about kinda way of explaining how Fina can make a drug like Deca more "androgenic" (at least on paper)

Thanks! It sounds like a reasonable explanation.

The root of my interest is 2-fold.

1) I'm interested in adding low dose nandrolone (Deca) for the purposes described in this thread, mostly joint health. But before I make any changes to my very stable TRT protocol, I want to research the subject thoroughly.

2) I'm currently experimenting with low dose (1 mg/day) finasteride for 4 to 6 weeks on and 4 weeks off to see if I can lower my overall DHT levels. My DHT levels have always been higher than the upper end of the normal range, even though I try to keep both my Total and Free T within range. I'd like to use finasteride continuously, but you have to be off it for 4 weeks in order to donate blood, hence the 4 week off period. I want to lower my DHT due to early symptoms of BHP and also because I've recently come across a medical study that corroborates what my hormone doc told me that it's DHT and not T that drives erythropoiesis. So, the study showed that men on TRT that used Finasteride had lower hemoglobin than guys that did not use Finasteride. Therefore, if you can get DHT in range, you may not have to donate blood to keep it under control. I'm currently in my first 6 week trial of low dose finasteride and plan on doing several dose-finding experiments with follow up labs to get the dose correct. My end goal is to eliminate the need for blood donations, reduce BHP, and keep what's left of my hair. This may take me a while to nail down the right dose.

[Quester]

Thanks! It sounds like a reasonable explanation.

The root of my interest is 2-fold.

1) I'm interested in adding low dose nandrolone (Deca) for the purposes described in this thread, mostly joint health. But before I make any changes to my very stable TRT protocol, I want to research the subject thoroughly.

2) I'm currently experimenting with low dose (1 mg/day) finasteride for 4 to 6 weeks on and 4 weeks off to see if I can lower my overall DHT levels. My DHT levels have always been higher than the upper end of the normal range, even though I try to keep both my Total and Free T within range. I'd like to use finasteride continuously, but you have to be off it for 4 weeks in order to donate blood, hence the 4 week off period. I want to lower my DHT due to early symptoms of BHP and also because I've recently come across a medical study that corroborates what my hormone doc told me that it's DHT and not T that drives erythropoiesis. So, the study showed that men on TRT that used Finasteride had lower hemoglobin than guys that did not use Finasteride. Therefore, if you can get DHT in range, you may not have to donate blood to keep it under control. I'm currently in my first 6 week trial of low dose finasteride and plan on doing several dose-finding experiments with follow up labs to get the dose correct. My end goal is to eliminate the need for blood donations, reduce BHP, and keep what's left of my hair. This may take me a while to nail down the right dose.

Anectdotal but I started Finasteride 1mg 3.5 months ago and my Hemoglobin is lower on my current labs.

[Youthful55guy]

Anectdotal but I started Finasteride 1mg 3.5 months ago and my Hemoglobin is lower on my current labs.

Thanks! From what I've read, your results are probably more than a coincidence. I'm beginning to believe the DHT/erythrocytosis connection. Here's a 2015 study of 179 men on TRT with and without Finasteride that available OPEN ACCESS at PubMed. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25596360

While the study is not as clean as I'd like it to be (they mixed forms and doses of TRT), it does show that men on TRT and Finasteride have a lower change in hematocrit levels.

[kelkel]

Thanks! From what I've read, your results are probably more than a coincidence. I'm beginning to believe the DHT/erythrocytosis connection. Here's a 2015 study of 179 men on TRT with and without Finasteride that available OPEN ACCESS at PubMed. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25596360

While the study is not as clean as I'd like it to be (they mixed forms and doses of TRT), it does show that men on TRT and Finasteride have a lower change in hematocrit levels.

I wonder what their point was in monitoring LH/FSH levels.

[Chrisp83TRT]

what you are reading about nandrolone and dht blockers is true. it can cause the drug to be more 'androgenic' but only on the "surface' sort of speak. in real life and real steroid user evidence its not much of an issue. for TRT guys though it could be more critical (if your trying to limit androgenic effects)

heres a very dumbed down way of thinking about how a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor would make Nanrolone more androgenic.
Deca does not convert to DHT, its converts to the very weak form DHN. but DHN is still able to bind to DHT receptors and "act" like DHT, yet not display the strong androgenic properties that actual DHT does. over time taking Deca you convert more and more to DHN and that becomes a dominant hormone (yet is not very androgenic.. ultimately you'll end up with a dick that don't work, cause you need actual DHT and androgens to work).
so being Deca converts to DHN , its not very androgenic , and in fact over time will have anti androgenic effects.
BUT . . . IF you go taking a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor you then blunt Deca from converting to DHN (a weak androgen) you don't have this effect of a very weak DHN binding to receptors instead of a very strong DHT anymore. so if you want the non androgenic effects of Deca, your better off letting it convert to its weak DHN.

^ thats really a round about kinda way of explaining how Fina can make a drug like Deca more "androgenic" (at least on paper)

God damn you and youthful are so beneficial to this lifestyle . You both need to write books and I mean that.

So if you are using 100-200mg of deca a week straight year round , you need to run something else to combat the sides ?
Or will there be no issues because of the low dose of deca ?

Sent from my JSN-AL00 using Tapatalk

[Too-$mall]

God damn you and youthful are so beneficial to this lifestyle . You both need to write books and I mean that.

So if you are using 100-200mg of deca a week straight year round , you need to run something else to combat the sides ?
Or will there be no issues because of the low dose of deca ?

Sent from my JSN-AL00 using Tapatalk

What he said ^

[Too-$mall]

I've been researching nandrolone lately for the effects you are describing, but I have yet to take any actions for it's use. Another safety factor to consider beyond it's progestin activity, is it's interaction with finasteride if you are using that compound to control T conversion to DHT. I have read that the use of a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor along with Deca Durabolin will enhance the steroid’s androgenic effects. It will actually have the opposite effect and increase the risk of androgenic side effects. Of and by itself, nandrolone will not convert to DHT, but when combined with finasteride it somehow does have an androgenic effect. I'm not sure of the mechanism, or if this is even true. I have yet to dig into the medical literature to understand this interaction (if it's even more than just bodybuilding lore).

awe what the F... this stuff is too heavy for me... awe man what's it mean?

i'm just taking test C and deca... do i need to do something else. this isn't freaking me out, but i could see myself needing to understand and then take action...

don't i just need to monitor cholesterol and E2???

effects?? i wasn't aware that prolactin cause additional issues??? doesn't prami take care of this?

these waters seem murky to me... ...

I'm taking tadalafil for my prostate...

ok, so what do i need to learn?

Are you saying that we are talking about TRT doses and how 200mg / week may throw values off and that the goal would be to stay in the range of what's considered high end of normal?

[almostgone]

awe what the F... this stuff is too heavy for me... awe man what's it mean?

i'm just taking test C and deca... do i need to do something else. this isn't freaking me out, but i could see myself needing to understand and then take action...

don't i just need to monitor cholesterol and E2???

effects?? i wasn't aware that prolactin cause additional issues??? doesn't prami take care of this?

these waters seem murky to me... ...

I'm taking tadalafil for my prostate...

ok, so what do i need to learn?

Are you saying that we are talking about TRT doses and how 200mg / week may throw values off and that the goal would be to stay in the range of what's considered high end of normal?

In bold. You're on TRT, self medicating or not you should be monitoring waaaay more than just E2 and lipids.

CBC, CMP, total and freeT, SHBG, I would throw in the Vitamin D periodically, IGF-1 and DHT as well.
Basically use the list in the finding a Dr. sticky.

I don't want to clutter up the TRT forum with information that is more related towards cycling, but if you are really worried about prolactin issues, pull a baseline PRL after being off of Deca for several months
That's probably overkill, but if it will ease your mind, it is money well spent.

[Youthful55guy]

awe what the F... this stuff is too heavy for me... awe man what's it mean?

i'm just taking test C and deca... do i need to do something else. this isn't freaking me out, but i could see myself needing to understand and then take action...

don't i just need to monitor cholesterol and E2???

effects?? i wasn't aware that prolactin cause additional issues??? doesn't prami take care of this?

these waters seem murky to me... ...

I'm taking tadalafil for my prostate...

ok, so what do i need to learn?

Are you saying that we are talking about TRT doses and how 200mg / week may throw values off and that the goal would be to stay in the range of what's considered high end of normal?

I'll try to bring it down a notch.

The higher you go on T, the greater the conversion to E2. At normal TRT doses 100-120 mg/wk in at least 2 divided doses, E2 should not be a problem. However, when you higher (e.g., 200 mg/wk), E2 side-effects become more of a problem unless you control E2 with an AI.

When you add certain AAS to the mix (e.g., Deca and Tren), they can make the gynecomastia (bit tits) side-effect of high E2 more problematic and set you up for a lifetime of higher then normal E2 sensitivity. Therefore, when stacking these other synthetic AAS hormones on top of higher than traditional TRT doses of T without adequate E2 control, you are playing with fire.

Bottom line, if that if you choose to go down this stacking road, be absolutely sure you keep a tight rein on your E2 levels and monitor them frequently.

Hope that helps.

[Too-$mall]

I'll try to bring it down a notch.

The higher you go on T, the greater the conversion to E2. At normal TRT doses 100-120 mg/wk in at least 2 divided doses, E2 should not be a problem. However, when you higher (e.g., 200 mg/wk), E2 side-effects become more of a problem unless you control E2 with an AI.

When you add certain AAS to the mix (e.g., Deca and Tren), they can make the gynecomastia (bit tits) side-effect of high E2 more problematic and set you up for a lifetime of higher then normal E2 sensitivity. Therefore, when stacking these other synthetic AAS hormones on top of higher than traditional TRT doses of T without adequate E2 control, you are playing with fire.

Bottom line, if that if you choose to go down this stacking road, be absolutely sure you keep a tight rein on your E2 levels and monitor them frequently.

Hope that helps.

lol, thanks that's more my style. this thread is a bit intimidating because i feel like some of it is high level. what i call blood science. a game I'm shamefully poor at. baby steps. tiny baby steps.

[Too-$mall]

how do i combat DECA dick if i'm doing TRT [125mg Test C/E3D] with DECA at 200mg / week?

And isn't tadalafil good for the prostate, so am i on the right track there?

[GearHeaded]

how do i combat DECA dick if i'm doing TRT [125mg Test C/E3D] with DECA at 200mg / week?

And isn't tadalafil good for the prostate, so am i on the right track there?

you shouldn't get Deca dick what-so-ever with a test base and that low a dose of Deca.. unless your super super prolactin sensitive.
I can run 1500mg of deca a week and my wife considers "deca dick" the ability to maintain an erection for hours on end and bang multiple times per day (so take that for what its worth

Deca dick in its original context, ie, the inability to get hard, originated back in the 60s and 70s when guys would run heavy dosages of deca only for weeks on end and eventually Decas conversation to DHN took over DHT. and dht is required for an erection.
between that and prolactin super sensitivity is what causes deca dick.
the other issue that causes deca dick is these fools that run deca for one of there first cycles and they are taught by forums that they have to take an AI with every cycle they do. they then crush there estrogen levels doing this (being deca really doesn't convert to estrogen much) and their dick doesn't work. its not the Deca , its the AI over dose.

[Youthful55guy]

you shouldn't get Deca dick what-so-ever with a test base and that low a dose of Deca.. unless your super super prolactin sensitive.
I can run 1500mg of deca a week and my wife considers "deca dick" the ability to maintain an erection for hours on end and bang multiple times per day (so take that for what its worth

Deca dick in its original context, ie, the inability to get hard, originated back in the 60s and 70s when guys would run heavy dosages of deca only for weeks on end and eventually Decas conversation to DHN took over DHT. and dht is required for an erection.
between that and prolactin super sensitivity is what causes deca dick.
the other issue that causes deca dick is these fools that run deca for one of there first cycles and they are taught by forums that they have to take an AI with every cycle they do. they then crush there estrogen levels doing this (being deca really doesn't convert to estrogen much) and their dick doesn't work. its not the Deca , its the AI over dose.

Very good explanation! I just would add that Deca has a relatively long half life, so it suppresses the HPTA for several weeks/months after discontinuation. If you maintain a TRT base, then that side-effect is of no consequence, but if you end all hormone supplementation, there may be a prolonged period where your endocrine system is screwed up.