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is this a thing?
i saw this article online about DECA and Tren and the guy mentioned that guys run DECA year round. think i heard someone mention it on here too.
reason being due to all its great properties.
joint soothing
increased IGF1
collagen synth.
here's the article i'm talking about
https://anabolictv.com/2018/07/can-y...deca-and-tren/
Last edited by Too-$mall; 12-27-2018 at 10:07 PM.
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Running Therapuetic dosages of Deca is very common and has been practiced for years . I've had Deca prescribed to me by a Doctor for this purpose. Other guys on these forums have as well.
yes you can run it year round with your TRT and get many benefits. you shouldn't get any prolactin sides either at these low dosages 100-200mg per week
deca also has 1.5 times the Anabolic strength and binding affinity as test does. so it will help you hold onto more muscle as well its joint, anti-inflammatory, and healing properties .
Changed Man
Agree with GH
I do 150 wk normally though I am out and leaning hard on ibuprophen.
AR-Platinum Elite- Hall of Famer
Just make sure your Dr. runs the correct type of test. Deca can possibly skew your T values upwards as it is listed as an interference substance for the ECLIA type of test.
There are several threads about.
Reads posts 14-16 of the thread below, preferably read the whole thing.
https://forums.steroid.com/hormone-r...st-method.html
Last edited by almostgone; 12-28-2018 at 02:30 AM.
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I'm not saying Deca will fvck you on an ECLIA test, but I would make sure they run the LC-MS/MS test.
There are 3 loves in my life: my wife, my English mastiffs, and my weightlifting....Man, my wife gets really pissed when I get the 3 confused...
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Junior Member
Nandrolone gives very high total testosterone in ECLIA. I know that for sure:
500 cyp + 400 deca
Senior Member
I normally don't provide advice on anabolic steroids beyond traditional TRT, but since both Deca Durabolin (Nandrolone Decanoate) is often combined with TRT for the effects you describe, I feel it's worth commenting on an important potential side-effect that you should monitor and control. All of the nandrolone derivatives have progestin-like activity, which means they bind to feminizing progesterone receptors in addition to androgenic receptors.Originally Posted by Too-$mall
Therefore, it is EXTREMELY important that you closely monitor and control E levels. Borderline high E levels by themselves will not cause gynecomastia, but when combined with compounds that have progesterone activity, your changes of developing gynecomastia are greatly increased. This is what happens during the 3rd trimester of pregnancy when the placenta produces high levels of both of these hormones which stimulates rapid development of the mammary glands.
I believe this is why some guys are more sensitive to E with normal TRT than others. At some point in their life, they were exposed to both high E2 and higher than normal P4 and they began to develop some rudimentary mammary glands. Once E2 and P4 return to normal, they live relatively normal lives, but when they are re-exposed to higher E2 (as is normal with TRT), they begin to develop symptoms of gynecomastia, even without secondary P4 stimulation. Often, this occurs in guys who have done short "experimental" cycles of nandrolone (Deca) without paying attention to E levels.
How low do you need to keep E levels during a Deca cycle? I have no idea, but I would definitely not let it go past mid-range and I would monitor it closely with labs. Perhaps other guys with more experience with AAS could offer better advice on the precise levels of E that you should strive for.
Member
no, i really like that advice. safety!
sure, i'll get bloods done soon. i'm ordering some pramipexole right now and getting more nolvadex. I've got exemestane and arimidex on hand if i need it.
sounds like really solid advice! THANK YOU
sure, i'm open to more views. keep'em coming!!!!
Senior Member
I've been researching nandrolone lately for the effects you are describing, but I have yet to take any actions for it's use. Another safety factor to consider beyond it's progestin activity, is it's interaction with finasteride if you are using that compound to control T conversion to DHT. I have read that the use of a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor along with Deca Durabolin will enhance the steroid’s androgenic effects. It will actually have the opposite effect and increase the risk of androgenic side effects. Of and by itself, nandrolone will not convert to DHT, but when combined with finasteride it somehow does have an androgenic effect. I'm not sure of the mechanism, or if this is even true. I have yet to dig into the medical literature to understand this interaction (if it's even more than just bodybuilding lore).
Member
i didn't see this post before. what's ECLIA? i'm reading the thread. there potential for harm if my t numbers are jacked, or are we just talking about my numbers getting thrown off? i don't have a doc. I'm gonna read the whole thing to understand what you're saying.
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what you are reading about nandrolone and dht blockers is true. it can cause the drug to be more 'androgenic' but only on the "surface' sort of speak. in real life and real steroid user evidence its not much of an issue. for TRT guys though it could be more critical (if your trying to limit androgenic effects)
heres a very dumbed down way of thinking about how a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor would make Nanrolone more androgenic.
Deca does not convert to DHT, its converts to the very weak form DHN. but DHN is still able to bind to DHT receptors and "act" like DHT, yet not display the strong androgenic properties that actual DHT does. over time taking Deca you convert more and more to DHN and that becomes a dominant hormone (yet is not very androgenic.. ultimately you'll end up with a dick that don't work, cause you need actual DHT and androgens to work).
so being Deca converts to DHN , its not very androgenic , and in fact over time will have anti androgenic effects.
BUT . . . IF you go taking a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor you then blunt Deca from converting to DHN (a weak androgen) you don't have this effect of a very weak DHN binding to receptors instead of a very strong DHT anymore. so if you want the non androgenic effects of Deca, your better off letting it convert to its weak DHN.
^ thats really a round about kinda way of explaining how Fina can make a drug like Deca more "androgenic" (at least on paper)
Last edited by GearHeaded; 12-28-2018 at 08:14 PM.
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An ECLIA test can give you false T values, typically higher
ECLIA= electrochemiluminescence immunoassay. It is the type of test that is done.
Use the LC-MS/MS test when you order your labs and you won't have to worry.
LC-MS/MS = liquid chromatography/tandem mass spectrometry
When you order your labs via privatemdlabs or whoever the description of the test will generally specify the type of testing they will perform.
There are 3 loves in my life: my wife, my English mastiffs, and my weightlifting....Man, my wife gets really pissed when I get the 3 confused...
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awe what the F... this stuff is too heavy for me... awe man what's it mean?
i'm just taking test C and deca... do i need to do something else. this isn't freaking me out, but i could see myself needing to understand and then take action...
don't i just need to monitor cholesterol and E2???
effects?? i wasn't aware that prolactin cause additional issues??? doesn't prami take care of this?
these waters seem murky to me... ...
I'm taking tadalafil for my prostate...
ok, so what do i need to learn?
Are you saying that we are talking about TRT doses and how 200mg / week may throw values off and that the goal would be to stay in the range of what's considered high end of normal?
Member
how do i combat DECA dick if i'm doing TRT [125mg Test C/E3D] with DECA at 200mg / week?
And isn't tadalafil good for the prostate, so am i on the right track there?
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you shouldn't get Deca dick what-so-ever with a test base and that low a dose of Deca.. unless your super super prolactin sensitive.
I can run 1500mg of deca a week and my wife considers "deca dick" the ability to maintain an erection for hours on end and bang multiple times per day (so take that for what its worth
Deca dick in its original context, ie, the inability to get hard, originated back in the 60s and 70s when guys would run heavy dosages of deca only for weeks on end and eventually Decas conversation to DHN took over DHT. and dht is required for an erection.
between that and prolactin super sensitivity is what causes deca dick.
the other issue that causes deca dick is these fools that run deca for one of there first cycles and they are taught by forums that they have to take an AI with every cycle they do. they then crush there estrogen levels doing this (being deca really doesn't convert to estrogen much) and their dick doesn't work. its not the Deca , its the AI over dose.
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In bold. You're on TRT, self medicating or not you should be monitoring waaaay more than just E2 and lipids.
CBC, CMP, total and freeT, SHBG, I would throw in the Vitamin D periodically, IGF-1 and DHT as well.
Basically use the list in the finding a Dr. sticky.
I don't want to clutter up the TRT forum with information that is more related towards cycling, but if you are really worried about prolactin issues, pull a baseline PRL after being off of Deca for several months
That's probably overkill, but if it will ease your mind, it is money well spent.
There are 3 loves in my life: my wife, my English mastiffs, and my weightlifting....Man, my wife gets really pissed when I get the 3 confused...
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ok. i have to take that into my notes and save up for that test. that's a whole lot. sounds expensive. also sounds like i should look for a doctor... i'm in the military though and it's very hard for me to talk to my primary care manager (PCM.) AND my commanding officer can look at my medical records any time he wants, BUT he's got to have a good reason AKA smooth talk the justification. there's also the fact that he's a Col, and has a team under him... what i'm saying is that i don't have medical insurance outside the military unless my Col gives the A-ok and i'm not going to test those waters because that would be his reason...
i'm basically screwed and would need help after i take my blood test. I'm learning, BUT the gap between knowledge to action has just widened to a point that's concerning. especially navigating the professional medical care scene. the caution bar has risen and now i'm considering my options. obviously get bloods done. Annnd figure out a way to get care from my PCM without getting gear usage put into my medical records... in fact i don't even think it's an option... would not be a good doc if he let that slide and what in gods name am i thinking if i think he's going to overlook PEDs. i have sorta kinda brought it up without explicitly saying i'm using steroids, but all i really did was ask him if the things he and i spoke about were between him and I. he said yes it's between him and i, but my CO has access to my records if he has a good reason... he also may have hedged that bet by telling me its only in my records if it's in my record. meaning that one only sees what's on paper, but ultimately i can't confirm that my PCM is trustworthy. if he was he would have just said "i wont tell, or some crap like that. surely he's a smart man and if he was on the level with me and got the hint, he'd straight up explain he and i are cool like that, but probably NOT. seems like a nice guy and i think he might be wise to the fact that i'm using gear, but it remains a secret with me and he won't know until i tell him. he's not going to ask me and that fact worries me a bit.
that test is going to be expensive...
i have no idea how much a doc is going to cost without coverage. probably put me into the poor house. out of the question i think.
Last edited by Too-$mall; 12-28-2018 at 09:25 PM.
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Refer to the sticky, I referenced. Drop the DHT for now, but do it when you are on a stable protocol.
CBC, CMP, total and free T, sensitive E2, and SHBG at least for starters, Vitamin D if you can.
If you are CONUS, the place you order labs from will email you, you sign in and get your lab requisition, you go off base, have blood drawn at one of their collection sites, they email you to sign in when results are in. No one else is in the loop. You pay when you order your tests.
Most places have discount codes online and also will let you build your own panel. Some give a discount code if you purchase 3 or more tests.
You may be able to get out for ~ $200, maybe less if you order less.
There are 3 loves in my life: my wife, my English mastiffs, and my weightlifting....Man, my wife gets really pissed when I get the 3 confused...
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oh yea sure. i'm familiar with having bloods done. i usually go with Discounted labs.
speaking of protocol, in another post, i'm probably going to list the supps i take to compliment my diet and the gear [trt] i'm on.
Last edited by Too-$mall; 12-28-2018 at 11:04 PM.
Member
sheesh pricey.
Senior Member
Yup. And it just gets worse with time
Member
wish i had good insurance. cant i buy medical insurance privately? like car insurance. how much does that cost?
Senior Member
Lemme tell ya about dat.
We are in the states. My wife has to buy her own private cuz I make too much money and she is not allowed to be on mine.
2018 cost her roughly $700/month. 2019 will cost her over $800/month. Had to do it. Knee replacement. Still cost us almost $20k on top
Productive Member
That sucks. Did you miss open enrollment? What kind of insurance doesn't let you add your wife? Bunch of scam artists
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That's why I always recommend people throw some $$ in a HSA if it is available to them. Since the labs are ordered by a Dr., it meets the criteria for HSA funds.
Labs can be pricey, but using pretax $$ to pay for them gives you a little mileage out of your money.
There are 3 loves in my life: my wife, my English mastiffs, and my weightlifting....Man, my wife gets really pissed when I get the 3 confused...
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Senior Member
It's a long story but the short version is my retiree medical is insanely cheap! Was told I could add spouse at the time. Also super cheap. After I retired, they explained the fine print: I can add her "if she has no other insurance option" . this state offers medical. Expensive. There's the loophole!
Couple more years she can do Medicare. Or she can divorce me. Then she would qualify for cheap, poor folk medical.
Senior Member
Thanks! It sounds like a reasonable explanation.
The root of my interest is 2-fold.
1) I'm interested in adding low dose nandrolone (Deca) for the purposes described in this thread, mostly joint health. But before I make any changes to my very stable TRT protocol, I want to research the subject thoroughly.
2) I'm currently experimenting with low dose (1 mg/day) finasteride for 4 to 6 weeks on and 4 weeks off to see if I can lower my overall DHT levels. My DHT levels have always been higher than the upper end of the normal range, even though I try to keep both my Total and Free T within range. I'd like to use finasteride continuously, but you have to be off it for 4 weeks in order to donate blood, hence the 4 week off period. I want to lower my DHT due to early symptoms of BHP and also because I've recently come across a medical study that corroborates what my hormone doc told me that it's DHT and not T that drives erythropoiesis. So, the study showed that men on TRT that used Finasteride had lower hemoglobin than guys that did not use Finasteride. Therefore, if you can get DHT in range, you may not have to donate blood to keep it under control. I'm currently in my first 6 week trial of low dose finasteride and plan on doing several dose-finding experiments with follow up labs to get the dose correct. My end goal is to eliminate the need for blood donations, reduce BHP, and keep what's left of my hair. This may take me a while to nail down the right dose.
Senior Member
I'll try to bring it down a notch.
The higher you go on T, the greater the conversion to E2. At normal TRT doses 100-120 mg/wk in at least 2 divided doses, E2 should not be a problem. However, when you higher (e.g., 200 mg/wk), E2 side-effects become more of a problem unless you control E2 with an AI.
When you add certain AAS to the mix (e.g., Deca and Tren), they can make the gynecomastia (bit tits) side-effect of high E2 more problematic and set you up for a lifetime of higher then normal E2 sensitivity. Therefore, when stacking these other synthetic AAS hormones on top of higher than traditional TRT doses of T without adequate E2 control, you are playing with fire.
Bottom line, if that if you choose to go down this stacking road, be absolutely sure you keep a tight rein on your E2 levels and monitor them frequently.
Hope that helps.
Senior Member
Very good explanation! I just would add that Deca has a relatively long half life, so it suppresses the HPTA for several weeks/months after discontinuation. If you maintain a TRT base, then that side-effect is of no consequence, but if you end all hormone supplementation, there may be a prolonged period where your endocrine system is screwed up.you shouldn't get Deca dick what-so-ever with a test base and that low a dose of Deca.. unless your super super prolactin sensitive.
I can run 1500mg of deca a week and my wife considers "deca dick" the ability to maintain an erection for hours on end and bang multiple times per day (so take that for what its worth
Deca dick in its original context, ie, the inability to get hard, originated back in the 60s and 70s when guys would run heavy dosages of deca only for weeks on end and eventually Decas conversation to DHN took over DHT. and dht is required for an erection.
between that and prolactin super sensitivity is what causes deca dick.
the other issue that causes deca dick is these fools that run deca for one of there first cycles and they are taught by forums that they have to take an AI with every cycle they do. they then crush there estrogen levels doing this (being deca really doesn't convert to estrogen much) and their dick doesn't work. its not the Deca , its the AI over dose.
Knowledgeable Member
Anectdotal but I started Finasteride 1mg 3.5 months ago and my Hemoglobin is lower on my current labs.
Senior Member
Thanks! From what I've read, your results are probably more than a coincidence. I'm beginning to believe the DHT/erythrocytosis connection. Here's a 2015 study of 179 men on TRT with and without Finasteride that available OPEN ACCESS at PubMed. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25596360
While the study is not as clean as I'd like it to be (they mixed forms and doses of TRT), it does show that men on TRT and Finasteride have a lower change in hematocrit levels.
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I wonder what their point was in monitoring LH/FSH levels.
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Senior Member
It was a retrospective study and I think the LH and FSH data was extracted from the records simply to confirm that the TRT was effective. Here's the only discussion of gonadotropins outside of the abstract:
A negative correlation was observed between ΔHct and follow-up LH (ρ=−0.212, p=0.005) and FSH (ρ=-0.254, p=0.001), as would be expected with an intact hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis.
I reread the Discussion and it was particularly insightful. This is not the first study implicate DHT in erythrocytosis. They cite 7 other studies also implicating DHT.
Understanding the role of DHT in erythrocytosis is of particular interest to me. Like a lot of guys, I "feel" a lot better with more and more T. I suspect this is due to faster recovery in from exercise. However, I know from experience that levels higher than about 120 mg/week (split E3D) is not sustainable because my hemoglobin level start exceeding the upper range of normal after a couple months, even with the maximum allowable frequency of blood donations. There's also the long-term negative effect of blood donations on ferritin levels and thyroid function to consider. If I could keep hemoglobin in check by preventing the rise in DHT by using finasteride, it may alleviate the need for blood donation and possibly allow me to increase my TRT dose to a higher sustainable dose without the need for blood donation. Of course, it mean I would not qualify for blood donation either, as finasteride is highly teratogenic to developing male fetuses and on the forbidden list for blood donation (requires a 4 week withdrawal period).
Lots of things to consider. Right now I'm in the middle of a 6-week 'enhanced' TRT trial (35 mg T-cyp/day) + finasteride (1 mg/day) + anastrozole (~0.07 mg/day). I plan to follow up with labs in at the conclusion of the 6-week trial to see where I'm at then go back to my normal TRT protocol for 4 weeks. Donate blood, and then repeat the experiment but adjust the finasteride and anastrozole doses based on the lab results. I plan on repeating this experimental cycle until I either reach a point where my DHT is in check or I've reached a maximum dose of 5 mg finasteride per day. At that point, I will probably need to adjust the T-dose down, but time will tell.
Knowledgeable Member
God damn you and youthful are so beneficial to this lifestyle . You both need to write books and I mean that.
So if you are using 100-200mg of deca a week straight year round , you need to run something else to combat the sides ?
Or will there be no issues because of the low dose of deca ?
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Yes, I've read several studies in the past on it. There are other studies showing frequent blood donations among older guys (us) can lead to anemia so caution needs to be exercised. I'll be quite interested in seeing your lab results. I've pulled dht labs multiple times on various doses of T from TRT levels to 400 mgs. Finasteride's ability to block dht even at higher doses of T is impressive. I haven't gone past 400 mgs of T in quite a while but when I do I'll pull labs again to evaluate.
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lol, thanks that's more my style. this thread is a bit intimidating because i feel like some of it is high level. what i call blood science. a game I'm shamefully poor at. baby steps. tiny baby steps.
Member
What he said ^
Member
why can't you guys supplement daily with a low dose of iron? I supplement with 10mg daily because my iron intake is very low without it. never meet my daily requirement.
Last edited by Too-$mall; 01-07-2019 at 12:31 AM.
Senior Member
I usually do for the first 3-4 weeks after my donation and then stop until the next donation. When I take iron supplements continuously (even cutting the pill in half), my iron labs come back high.
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I can do 65 mgs elemental iron for a couple weeks. Beyond that it kills my stomach...
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