Adding nandrolone to TRT

[Youthful55guy]

Good to see you YG%%!
Let me know your thoughts on nandrolone after some time please!

Saw this on estrogen the other day. You'll find it interesting:

https://jayccampbell.com/blog/estrog...ers-are-dying/

Hi Kel,

Been busy at work, so not a lot of time to post.

Regarding E2, the normal guy on TRT should not fear E2, even if it becomes slightly out of range. E2 is made from T, so when T goes up so will the rate of conversion to E2. It's a simple mass-action enzymatic conversion. The more T you feed the aromatase enzyme, the more E2 you will get. The simple solution for guys on TRT is to move to lower and more frequent dosing of T so that your peak and nadir levels of T always stay within or close to the "normal" range. E2 will follow.

The problem is when guys just don't get this and approach TRT with a 'more is better' approach, or use old school protocols of once weekly or (God forbid) once ever 2 week protocols. With these old school protocols still prescribed and promoted by dinosaur doc, comes huge spikes in T at the beginning of the injection cycle in order to keep nadir levels within range at the end of the injection cycle. Therein comes the huge spike in E2 at the beginning of the cycle which takes some time for the body to clear, and then you do it all over again but this time building on the uncleared levels of E2 from the prior injection cycles. It's a hormonal roller coaster ride to hell!

Guys are paranoid of E2 because of bro talk in the locker room. Bodybuilders sometimes have problems with gynecomastia and they blame it on E2. Which has some basis in reality, but the real truth is that they are often stacking many anabolic hormones on top of each other and at the base of these stacks are way higher doses of T than we use in TRT. The huge doses in T (e.g., 300-500 mg/week), cause spikes in E2, which of and by itself is not horribly bad, but many of the other synthetic anabolic agents they stack with the T (e.g., nandrolone) also have affinity to the progesterone (P4) receptors in the body. High E2 + P4 is a recipe for gynecomastia. This is what happens in the 3rd trimester of pregnancy when the placenta takes over hormone production in women. It pumps out huge amounts of both of these hormones in order to prepare the breast tissue for lactation, so there is rapid development of the mammary glands. Throw in high levels of prolactin (or in the case of pregnancy placental lactogen which has prolactin-like activity) and you begin to lactate. Many of the synthetic anabolics also have a propensity to bump up prolactin levels. I've seen videos on the internet of bodybuilders lactating. It's not pretty!

Coming back to nandrolone, it's new to me Kel. I've only been experimenting with it for about 2+ weeks to see if I can get some relief from my elbow injury from 2 years ago. It seems to be working well. The moderate anabolic boost is an added perk too, but not my primary motivation (I've got more than enough muscle mass from 20+ years of weight lifting). I've been experimenting with various doses of T over the past year too in order to optimize my Free T without having to use synthetic anabolics (e.g., stanozolole or Oxandrolone (Anavar)) to suppress my high SHBG. I've selltled on 125 to 140 mg/week E3D protocol as my optimal protocol. This keeps my E2 from going way out of range and bring my Free T within the Target range.

Can't remember if I've posted the graph of my T range-finding experiment in this forum. Here is is:

[kelkel]

Hi Kel,

Been busy at work, so not a lot of time to post.

Regarding E2, the normal guy on TRT should not fear E2, even if it becomes slightly out of range. E2 is made from T, so when T goes up so will the rate of conversion to E2. It's a simple mass-action enzymatic conversion. The more T you feed the aromatase enzyme, the more E2 you will get. The simple solution for guys on TRT is to move to lower and more frequent dosing of T so that your peak and nadir levels of T always stay within or close to the "normal" range. E2 will follow.

Dropping their dose is always the last thing guys think of or want to do. Way to obvious right!

The problem is when guys just don't get this and approach TRT with a 'more is better' approach, or use old school protocols of once weekly or (God forbid) once ever 2 week protocols. With these old school protocols still prescribed and promoted by dinosaur doc, comes huge spikes in T at the beginning of the injection cycle in order to keep nadir levels within range at the end of the injection cycle. Therein comes the huge spike in E2 at the beginning of the cycle which takes some time for the body to clear, and then you do it all over again but this time building on the uncleared levels of E2 from the prior injection cycles. It's a hormonal roller coaster ride to hell!

I still see a ton of doctors writing protocols for every 2 week injections. Ridiculous to base an injection protocol on the terminal life of a drug.

Guys are paranoid of E2 because of bro talk in the locker room. Bodybuilders sometimes have problems with gynecomastia and they blame it on E2. Which has some basis in reality, but the real truth is that they are often stacking many anabolic hormones on top of each other and at the base of these stacks are way higher doses of T than we use in TRT. The huge doses in T (e.g., 300-500 mg/week), cause spikes in E2, which of and by itself is not horribly bad, but many of the other synthetic anabolic agents they stack with the T (e.g., nandrolone) also have affinity to the progesterone (P4) receptors in the body. High E2 + P4 is a recipe for gynecomastia. This is what happens in the 3rd trimester of pregnancy when the placenta takes over hormone production in women. It pumps out huge amounts of both of these hormones in order to prepare the breast tissue for lactation, so there is rapid development of the mammary glands. Throw in high levels of prolactin (or in the case of pregnancy placental lactogen which has prolactin-like activity) and you begin to lactate. Many of the synthetic anabolics also have a propensity to bump up prolactin levels. I've seen videos on the internet of bodybuilders lactating. It's not pretty!

Yeah, I've seen it all in the BB'ing world. Remember though, 500 mgs T is the suggested beginner dose anymore. A gram of T is nothing these days. Or even 2 grams of combined AAS...

Coming back to nandrolone, it's new to me Kel. I've only been experimenting with it for about 2+ weeks to see if I can get some relief from my elbow injury from 2 years ago. It seems to be working well. The moderate anabolic boost is an added perk too, but not my primary motivation (I've got more than enough muscle mass from 20+ years of weight lifting). I've been experimenting with various doses of T over the past year too in order to optimize my Free T without having to use synthetic anabolics (e.g., stanozolole or Oxandrolone (Anavar)) to suppress my high SHBG. I've selltled on 125 to 140 mg/week E3D protocol as my optimal protocol. This keeps my E2 from going way out of range and bring my Free T within the Target range.

Very curious to see how you make out. Particularly how much your shbg drops and FT increases.

Can't remember if I've posted the graph of my T range-finding experiment in this forum. Here is is:

above...and as always, great to see you here.

[JdFlex]

I still see a ton of doctors writing protocols for every 2 week injections. Ridiculous to base an injection protocol on the terminal life of a drug.

My Dr. said he has to write the RX as one inject every 2 weeks as that is the current standard medical industry protocol. But he tells me to take 1/2 dose every week.

[BuzzardMarinePumper]

Hi Kel,

Been busy at work, so not a lot of time to post.

Regarding E2, the normal guy on TRT should not fear E2, even if it becomes slightly out of range. E2 is made from T, so when T goes up so will the rate of conversion to E2. It's a simple mass-action enzymatic conversion. The more T you feed the aromatase enzyme, the more E2 you will get. The simple solution for guys on TRT is to move to lower and more frequent dosing of T so that your peak and nadir levels of T always stay within or close to the "normal" range. E2 will follow.

The problem is when guys just don't get this and approach TRT with a 'more is better' approach, or use old school protocols of once weekly or (God forbid) once ever 2 week protocols. With these old school protocols still prescribed and promoted by dinosaur doc, comes huge spikes in T at the beginning of the injection cycle in order to keep nadir levels within range at the end of the injection cycle. Therein comes the huge spike in E2 at the beginning of the cycle which takes some time for the body to clear, and then you do it all over again but this time building on the uncleared levels of E2 from the prior injection cycles. It's a hormonal roller coaster ride to hell!

Guys are paranoid of E2 because of bro talk in the locker room. Bodybuilders sometimes have problems with gynecomastia and they blame it on E2. Which has some basis in reality, but the real truth is that they are often stacking many anabolic hormones on top of each other and at the base of these stacks are way higher doses of T than we use in TRT. The huge doses in T (e.g., 300-500 mg/week), cause spikes in E2, which of and by itself is not horribly bad, but many of the other synthetic anabolic agents they stack with the T (e.g., nandrolone) also have affinity to the progesterone (P4) receptors in the body. High E2 + P4 is a recipe for gynecomastia. This is what happens in the 3rd trimester of pregnancy when the placenta takes over hormone production in women. It pumps out huge amounts of both of these hormones in order to prepare the breast tissue for lactation, so there is rapid development of the mammary glands. Throw in high levels of prolactin (or in the case of pregnancy placental lactogen which has prolactin-like activity) and you begin to lactate. Many of the synthetic anabolics also have a propensity to bump up prolactin levels. I've seen videos on the internet of bodybuilders lactating. It's not pretty!

Coming back to nandrolone, it's new to me Kel. I've only been experimenting with it for about 2+ weeks to see if I can get some relief from my elbow injury from 2 years ago. It seems to be working well. The moderate anabolic boost is an added perk too, but not my primary motivation (I've got more than enough muscle mass from 20+ years of weight lifting). I've been experimenting with various doses of T over the past year too in order to optimize my Free T without having to use synthetic anabolics (e.g., stanozolole or Oxandrolone (Anavar)) to suppress my high SHBG. I've selltled on 125 to 140 mg/week E3D protocol as my optimal protocol. This keeps my E2 from going way out of range and bring my Free T within the Target range.

Can't remember if I've posted the graph of my T range-finding experiment in this forum. Here is is:

After reading all this enlightening info , I have a question . I have LOW SHBG and from what I have read lower SHGB makes the receptors more willing to receive hormones ........ Mine is low and out of range big time ........ Is there a common reason for this ?

I can post BW from Late Jan is it will help but I will not be able to get more BW until the end of July ...... So that is the most recent I have and that was right before my left knee replacement . That by the way still hurts like a MF'er 3 moths post op .......

[Youthful55guy]

After reading all this enlightening info , I have a question . I have LOW SHBG and from what I have read lower SHGB makes the receptors more willing to receive hormones ........ Mine is low and out of range big time ........ Is there a common reason for this ?
.

First off, I have to say up front that I have no experience with low SHBG and I've not done a lot of research into the literature. This is because I have the opposite problem of producing way too much SHBG and most of my research and experimentation has been with finding ways to deal with it being high.

I would not phrase it quite like you did, SHBG has nothing (that I know of) to do with receptor activity. What it does do is bind sex hormones and it has a particularly high affinity for androgens (like T and DHT). So this means with high SHBG, less of the androgens are available to bind to the receptors to stimulate the receptors to do their thing. Also, SHBG bound T will not pass through the blood-brain barrier, so while you may have sufficient Total T in the blood, your brain is starved of the hormone because SHBG won't let it through.

With low SHBG, more of the androgens (T, DHT, or whatever synthetic androgens you are taking) is available to bind and stimulate receptors. However, while higher free T/androgens is good, it also means that it will be metabolized by the liver and excreted much faster. That is why guys with low SHBG end up taking higher does of androgens to get the same effect, because they don't have sufficient SHBG to protect the androgens from liver metabolism. In this respect SHBG serves as a buffer for the androgens.

Bottom line is that both high and low SHBG is not a good thing but for different reasons. The bad news is that low SHBG is more difficult to treat. With high SHBG, you simply have to increase the dose so that you saturate the protein and enough of it spills over to the free form of the androgen to make you feel normal again (or build muscle if that's your goal). Also, as Kel mentioned, certain higher androgens in general suppress SHBG production and certain synthetic androgens will greatly suppress it, even at very low doses (e.g., Winstrol and Anavar). I do not know if nandrolone has this same effect.

With low SHBG, there's not a lot you can do (that I know of) to beef up production of the protein. I've read of some guys having success with more frequent daily injections rather than weekly or even twice weekly injections. This will help to keep some active T in your body at all times and avoid the roller coaster of big injections and rapid metabolism by the liver.

[BuzzardMarinePumper]

First off, I have to say up front that I have no experience with low SHBG and I've not done a lot of research into the literature. This is because I have the opposite problem of producing way too much SHBG and most of my research and experimentation has been with finding ways to deal with it being high.

I would not phrase it quite like you did, SHBG has nothing (that I know of) to do with receptor activity. What it does do is bind sex hormones and it has a particularly high affinity for androgens (like T and DHT). So this means with high SHBG, less of the androgens are available to bind to the receptors to stimulate the receptors to do their thing. Also, SHBG bound T will not pass through the blood-brain barrier, so while you may have sufficient Total T in the blood, your brain is starved of the hormone because SHBG won't let it through.

With low SHBG, more of the androgens (T, DHT, or whatever synthetic androgens you are taking) is available to bind and stimulate receptors. However, while higher free T/androgens is good, it also means that it will be metabolized by the liver and excreted much faster. That is why guys with low SHBG end up taking higher does of androgens to get the same effect, because they don't have sufficient SHBG to protect the androgens from liver metabolism. In this respect SHBG serves as a buffer for the androgens.

Bottom line is that both high and low SHBG is not a good thing but for different reasons. The bad news is that low SHBG is more difficult to treat. With high SHBG, you simply have to increase the dose so that you saturate the protein and enough of it spills over to the free form of the androgen to make you feel normal again (or build muscle if that's your goal). Also, as Kel mentioned, certain higher androgens in general suppress SHBG production and certain synthetic androgens will greatly suppress it, even at very low doses (e.g., Winstrol and Anavar). I do not know if nandrolone has this same effect.

With low SHBG, there's not a lot you can do (that I know of) to beef up production of the protein. I've read of some guys having success with more frequent daily injections rather than weekly or even twice weekly injections. This will help to keep some active T in your body at all times and avoid the roller coaster of big injections and rapid metabolism by the liver.

Thank you !

Yes I am sure I stated it incorrectly about receptors but in my old brain what stood out from past reads was lower SHGB is good because in some manner you get more bang for your buck with lower SHGB ........ Thank you for correcting me .

Could I possibly persuade you to try to dumb it down a little . I have had sever low SHGB to the point that it effects my Hematocrit (I think I mispelled this) numbers also = risk of heart failure and higher mortality rate ..... That is why I am so curious ...... My Dr is clueless ! So please anyone try to dumb it down and assist me in trying to understand . I have googled and low SHGB seems to be a somewhat unusual problem to treat - not that common ?

THank You Again !

[Youthful55guy]

Thank you !
Could I possibly persuade you to try to dumb it down a little . I have had sever low SHGB to the point that it effects my Hematocrit (I think I mispelled this) numbers also = risk of heart failure and higher mortality rate ..... That is why I am so curious ...... My Dr is clueless ! So please anyone try to dumb it down and assist me in trying to understand . I have googled and low SHGB seems to be a somewhat unusual problem to treat - not that common ?

I'll try. It is a somewhat complicated subject.

Guys who have low SHBG burn through T much faster than guys with normal or high SHBG. For a couple days after the injection, their Free T skyrockets and that drives Red blood cell (RBC) production. Hemoglobin and hematocrit are 2 ways to measure RBC production. Both T and DHT (to a grater extent) will push up your RBC production, so the more free T that is available, the more RBCs you produce.

The problem is that you burn through T so quickly, that with standard doses (e.g., 100mg in once weekly injections), you do not have a sufficient amount of T left in you system at the end of the week, so you feel like crap. To compensate (if you stick with once weekly injections), you inject larger and lager amounts of T so that you have something left at the end of the week to feel somewhat normal. However, this pushes your post-injection spike in blood T levels higher and high, and this drives RBC production faster and faster. Sometimes to dangerous levels.

Again, I have the opposite problem with SHBG, so I can only go off of what I've heard other guys discuss in various forums. The consensus among these guys is that when you have low SHBG, you are better off with more frequent injections of T rather than increasing the dose. So, for example, instead of bumping the weekly dose up to 200mg, you might consider injecting 20mg per day which equates to 140mg/week. This will help keep your Free T levels in the normal range throughout the week without driving huge spikes in Free T as you would with a larger 200mg once weekly dose. This will slow down RBC product to a more normal rate.

[Gallowmere]

I'll try. It is a somewhat complicated subject.

Guys who have low SHBG burn through T much faster than guys with normal or high SHBG. For a couple days after the injection, their Free T skyrockets and that drives Red blood cell (RBC) production. Hemoglobin and hematocrit are 2 ways to measure RBC production. Both T and DHT (to a grater extent) will push up your RBC production, so the more free T that is available, the more RBCs you produce.

The problem is that you burn through T so quickly, that with standard doses (e.g., 100mg in once weekly injections), you do not have a sufficient amount of T left in you system at the end of the week, so you feel like crap. To compensate (if you stick with once weekly injections), you inject larger and lager amounts of T so that you have something left at the end of the week to feel somewhat normal. However, this pushes your post-injection spike in blood T levels higher and high, and this drives RBC production faster and faster. Sometimes to dangerous levels.

Again, I have the opposite problem with SHBG, so I can only go off of what I've heard other guys discuss in various forums. The consensus among these guys is that when you have low SHBG, you are better off with more frequent injections of T rather than increasing the dose. So, for example, instead of bumping the weekly dose up to 200mg, you might consider injecting 20mg per day which equates to 140mg/week. This will help keep your Free T levels in the normal range throughout the week without driving huge spikes in Free T as you would with a larger 200mg once weekly dose. This will slow down RBC product to a more normal rate.

As someone with chronically low shbg, I’ve definitely found this to be the case. My results (and issues with side effects) are drastically improved with increased dose frequency.
Even with long ester cycles (Enanthate and Decanoate), I’m better off with 4x/week pins. With short esters (acetate and prop), daily is pretty much mandatory, and I’m sure that 2x/day would work even better, if I could be fucked to do it so often.

[kelkel]

As someone with chronically low shbg, I’ve definitely found this to be the case. My results (and issues with side effects) are drastically improved with increased dose frequency.
Even with long ester cycles (Enanthate and Decanoate), I’m better off with 4x/week pins. With short esters (acetate and prop), daily is pretty much mandatory, and I’m sure that 2x/day would work even better, if I could be fucked to do it so often.

Give me an idea what your "low" actually is is you don't mind.
What side effects did you have Gallo?

[Ephemeral]

I'll try. It is a somewhat complicated subject.

Guys who have low SHBG burn through T much faster than guys with normal or high SHBG. For a couple days after the injection, their Free T skyrockets and that drives Red blood cell (RBC) production. Hemoglobin and hematocrit are 2 ways to measure RBC production. Both T and DHT (to a grater extent) will push up your RBC production, so the more free T that is available, the more RBCs you produce.

The problem is that you burn through T so quickly, that with standard doses (e.g., 100mg in once weekly injections), you do not have a sufficient amount of T left in you system at the end of the week, so you feel like crap. To compensate (if you stick with once weekly injections), you inject larger and lager amounts of T so that you have something left at the end of the week to feel somewhat normal. However, this pushes your post-injection spike in blood T levels higher and high, and this drives RBC production faster and faster. Sometimes to dangerous levels.

Again, I have the opposite problem with SHBG, so I can only go off of what I've heard other guys discuss in various forums. The consensus among these guys is that when you have low SHBG, you are better off with more frequent injections of T rather than increasing the dose. So, for example, instead of bumping the weekly dose up to 200mg, you might consider injecting 20mg per day which equates to 140mg/week. This will help keep your Free T levels in the normal range throughout the week without driving huge spikes in Free T as you would with a larger 200mg once weekly dose. This will slow down RBC product to a more normal rate.

From another forum:

"It's a misconception to think that low SHBG causes testosterone to be used up more quickly when on TRT. The rate of use is essentially controlled by the rate of absorption. One way to think of it is that the testosterone injections control the level of free testosterone, and the combination of free testosterone and SHBG determines where total testosterone ends up.

If conventional wisdom is correct—about more frequent injections being better for low-SHBG guys—then the likely reduction of peak estradiol may well be one of the reasons why. The idea is somewhat supported in theory by the decrease in the ratio of free testosterone to free estradiol as SHBG goes lower.

To clarify further, as I have in other posts, if you take a guy on TRT and lower his SHBG without changing other independent variables, then free testosterone must be basically unchanged, so total testosterone adjusts to match. This means that lower SHBG results in proportionally lower total testosterone. So from an absolute perspective, the variance in peaks and troughs is reduced, but as a proportion of average levels the variance is unchanged."

[Youthful55guy]

From another forum:

"It's a misconception to think that low SHBG causes testosterone to be used up more quickly when on TRT. The rate of use is essentially controlled by the rate of absorption. One way to think of it is that the testosterone injections control the level of free testosterone, and the combination of free testosterone and SHBG determines where total testosterone ends up.

If conventional wisdom is correct—about more frequent injections being better for low-SHBG guys—then the likely reduction of peak estradiol may well be one of the reasons why. The idea is somewhat supported in theory by the decrease in the ratio of free testosterone to free estradiol as SHBG goes lower.

To clarify further, as I have in other posts, if you take a guy on TRT and lower his SHBG without changing other independent variables, then free testosterone must be basically unchanged, so total testosterone adjusts to match. This means that lower SHBG results in proportionally lower total testosterone. So from an absolute perspective, the variance in peaks and troughs is reduced, but as a proportion of average levels the variance is unchanged."

What can I say? The individual that post it obviously has an opinion different then mine but has not data to back up the statements that are being made. Nor do I for that matter. I know of little (no) research for guys with low SHBG. I can only go off of the experience I've read from posts of guys dealing with the problem. Who's advice do you follow given that that there's no real data? I would say, develop your own data along with labs, and post them so that we can all benefit from the experience. That's what this forum is all about....exchange of information.

[kelkel]

From another forum:

"This means that lower SHBG results in proportionally lower total testosterone.

I've never seen this correlation and I've reviewed tons of bloodwork. It definitly does not relate to my BW.

Interesting though.

[kelkel]

I do not know if nandrolone has this same effect.

It does and quickly. Matter of days is all it takes.