I have talked to philosophers, and they hold that historians generally agree'd he existed......Originally Posted by Tock
also, Romans in general except that pilate crucified him
"Rancid Protein Powder Mastermind Technician"
I have talked to philosophers, and they hold that historians generally agree'd he existed......
also, Romans in general except that pilate crucified him
Associate Member
YES, historians are in near universal agreement that Jesus Christ existed, or rather, Yeshua / Jesus of Nazareth, as they refer to him
Anabolic Member
I know a couple guys going to the SMU (Southern Methodist University) school of theology, and they tell me all the professors there are atheists. A couple of 'em are "bite-your-head-off" lesbian atheists, too.
And, if you talk to Jewish, Hindu, Buddist, etc. theologians, they'll have different opinions. If you want to go by numbers, well, since most of the planet's population is not Christian, it's a safe bet to assume that most of the planet's theologians will not assume that Jesus existed.
Nevertheless, most people once thought the world was flat. And most people once thought that George W. Bush was a good US President. Goes to show ya that most people can be wrong.
"Rancid Protein Powder Mastermind Technician"
edit in last post........ about saints
if they were nutzo's, they wouldnt be the only group in history to have died for their beliefs, even if their beliefs were bogus...ie purple koolaide.....
but i think a martyr is a little bit of a tougher thing than a silent suicidal death....and I think the situations is different enough, to hold the saints up higher
Associate Member
Dying for a belief does not make it valid. Nor is it the slightest bit of proof therof, or else Mohammed Atta and his 18 fellow hijackers proved Islam correct by slamming into buildings at 500 mph.
But then Jim Jones and David Koresh are right too, and what about the atheist Rosenbergs...Timothy McVeigh.and Buddhist monks who light themselves on fire....a friend of mine who ate mushrooms... and peyote and commited suicide two days later because the world wasn't "REAL"...lots of people die for their beliefs and that is not evidence of their correctness...
As for God being the simplest explanation, it actually is tied with the "scientific" explanations (ie the Big Bang, M-theory [very strange stuff about membranes touching each other and creating new universes, and theres an infinite number])
I AGREE with you that the KEY difference between humans and OTHER ANIMALS is our ability to reason. REASON is the best evidence that we are made in the image of God. Reason is the only way we can understand his creation. I AGREE that the universal desire amongst sentient beings can be taken - in some ethereal way- as evidence of a Creator. Its when you start arguing that God is ALL-POWERFUL and ALL-LOVING and ALL-KNOWING that you run into problems, because that requires a perfect world (see the Riddle of Epicurus)
"Rancid Protein Powder Mastermind Technician"
ya, if my second post got their in time, you would have seen that I said, "if saints were insane, it wouldnt be the first time in history wacko's died for some bogus belief ie purple koolaide" and I still hold that I think the saints may have been rational and sane
as far as perfect world, and all powerful etc..........I used to see problems with that also....I work with a muslum guy.......and we talk about religion from time to time, and I actually really really like some of his opinions about a perfect world vs human suffering and imperfection....
one of his ideas is that, suffering is all part of the plan.....God has more emotions than we have........suffering and world imperfection is not something we can understand as a human, as to why it is present.....but it does serve a purpose.......if your own father discaplined you or showed you how to do something, you would not question it, you are not smart enough to question it......
I like that idea, but as I was typing that, this hit me...........if certain people are chosen to suffer in this world, to perhaps define good and bad, than I guess not all men are created equal are they?
so over the next day or 2, I will be thinking about his idea, and mine that I got while typing this
and as far as creation, you are still stuck with where did that orginal matter come from? why i still think God is the very simplest explanation
Last edited by IronReload04; 12-02-2007 at 09:51 PM.
Associate Member
Haha, theres the difference between me and your friend. I always questioned my father, I defied him and I occasionally pissed him off. I ALWAYS asked why until he had to just say BECAUSE. I ALWAYS looked for a better way until i either found one, or decided it was no longer worth searching for it.
This is another "Its a mystery" rationalization. Who says God has emotions? Who can prove he deosn't. In Sec. Rumsfeld's words "these questions are not knowable!" All higher animals have emotions. What you've never seen elephants mourn their dead? pay respect to Elephant skulls they pass by? Seen two foxes in love? Emotions are subroutines that are designed to override rational thought in order to increase your chances of passing on your genes (not necessarily survival). In the right situations, thats exactly what they do. Fear, love, even hatred and prejudice all have their place in aiding this task. Read "the selfish gene" by Richard Dawkins and you'll understand this very well. All of the Logical problems associated with religious dogma go away when you accept the truth as revealed by mans observations. Except the one that you quite astutely point out, which is the following :
The answer to that question is the same (in other words, EQUAL TO) the question, WHERE DID GOD COME FROM..?? He always was OR It always was.And as far as creation, you are still stuck with where did that orginal matter come from? why i still think God is the very simplest explanation
They are the SAME FUKCING ANSWER.
Clearly they are not. God could be an emotionless being. We just dont know.I like that idea, but as I was typing that, this hit me...........if certain people are chosen to suffer in this world, to perhaps define good and bad, than I guess not all men are created equal are they?
Supplement Guru
I belive Yahweh in greek translates to Jehovah as noted above
Associate Member
Jehovah, or rather IEHOVAH, is how the Latin speaking romans transliterated and pronounced "Yahweh". Its a transliteration, not a translation. Like taking the arabic name spelled "Meem-Waw-Haa-Meem-Alif-Daal" and writing it Muhammad, or Mohammed, etc
Anabolic Member
ile copy and paste my post from the last religion thread...
organized religion is ridiculous to me...i think alot of it goes against the very idea faith and freedom i think any god would want us to have. proof jesus exsisted? youre relying on a source...proof that he didnt, your countering that source with another one..the truth is no one has any idea of where we came from or what we are here for backed with real tangible explenation..but i think its alot easier to justify exsistance/your reason for being alive by sticking to someone elses story. being a catholic(or whatever)..confessing your sins and layin on heavens clowds when you die makes the world a lot more simple then being alone and having your own theories, your own faith, and your own ideas IMO... religion never felt right to me..i went to a catholic school but refused to be confirmed when i was 13.. who is anyone to tell me whats gospel and explain every piece of of he world and space that exsists around it? what makes the bible any more important or divine than what everyone believed before, or after its time? hell you can look a mere 300 years ago and find people being executed for witchcraft!! ****in witchcraft?!!?! and im suppose to believe people thousands of years ago had their story straight?!?!?!?!? and live by thier suggestion?? come on..
but thats not to say im an athiest with no faith...i have an unshakable belief in god, and divine creation..i just dont think anyone should be told how, or why to believe in something that profound.
Associate Member
Wow. If only there were more people like us. I personally always had the same problems (being raised Catholic) but choose to continue to worship God under the auspices of the Catholic Church despite my differences with them in matters of Theology, etc. I could most accurately be described as a Deist who attends Catholic Mass, just as Thomas Jefferson (who wrote his own bible (minus the divinity of Jesus and the other supernatural events) is most accurately described as a Deist who attended Episcopal church.
Associate Member
Why do you think we are in a much better position today?
Associate Member
Because we arent APPALINGLY IGNORANT. we have an indescribably better ability to discern the rules by which the universe operates. These people were being as rational as they could be. They didnt even know what blood actually did, or what a germ was, or the laws of motion, THEY DIDNT KNOW SHIT, so they had to make stuff up as best they could. They were Sexist, Racist, Bigotted, homophobic, and on and on. READ LEVITICUS AND DEUTERONOMY. Lance Armstrong wouldnt be allowed in the temple because he had a testicle removed. GOD "TOLD" THEM THIS WAS WRONG. (any man who hath had his privy member cut off, or his stones crushed, shall not enter the house of the lord. DEUT 23:1)**BULLSH1T!!!***, OH AND GOD held the sun in the sky (the sun isnt suspended by anything BTW, it orbits the super massive blackhole at the center of the galaxy about every 225 million years) so that the israelites could complete the slaughter of their "enemies" (they arent specific). So they also Accuse God of Genocide. Its obvious to a freethinking individual who will not surrender his DIRECT relationship with God for anyone else's ancient superstition rooted in the inablity of past generations to even BEGIN to understand the universe, and their foolish, misplaced loyalty to those explanations. These beliefs exist now only becuase they were passed down from one generation to the next. No one would come to these conclusions on their own, with a modern library of knowledge in their brain.
Associate Member
Are you angry at God? LOL.
Associate Member
Nope. I am angry at the Assholes who commit murder in His name and the Fools that follow them. Oh and the ones who molest children and the FOOLS that protect them. LOL is the only response you have because DEUTERONOMY and LEVITICUS are in fact irreconcilable with YOUR belief in a Loving God, not just mine. :-)
You're not bad at asking questions, but so far appear utterly incapable of rational intellectual argument. I suppose thats why you need SOMEONE ELSE's beliefs and explanations to cling to in the first place, so it comes as no surprise.
Last edited by TexSavant; 12-02-2007 at 10:20 PM.
Associate Member
Hey buddy you don't have to go all crazy just because you have problems with something. You don't know anything for a fact so everyone can have their own opinion. You are trying to make the Catholic religion look ridiculous and false because you have no faith in anything. Just because you are uncomfortable and unstable with your own life doesn't mean you should try to prove that a certain religion shouldn't exist.
Associate Member
the movie below is what i think really of the majorty. it's 2 hours long and google video. but it's ****ing interesting. have a look and you really won't be able to stop watching it.
the whole goto sleep and don't remember what happens is what death is like thing. is pretty cool and i have lots of ideas like that as well. but their is so much more to it i believe. so much unexplainable shit.
Last edited by Diamonite; 12-03-2007 at 12:53 AM.
Associate Member
pretty deep discussion here. seriously if you ever get the chance. watch that video i posted above. probably change your life.
Senior Member
+1 on the video
Junior Member
"Religion is based I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. Fear is the basis of the whole thing--fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand." -Bertrand Russell
Associate Member
TexSavant, you are awsome man. I need to learn how to put thoughts into words like you do.
Veritas, Aequitas ~
well this thread certainly picked up some steam
Anabolic Member
Hopefully, none of it "around the collar" . . .
Veritas, Aequitas ~
throw religion in the mix and around the collar is hard to avoid
Associate Member
Holy crap, that movie has just changed my life....I'm losing it!!
Snook~ AR Lounge Monitor
Look what you did mr newbreed
Veritas, Aequitas ~
hehe
Associate Member
watch my movies!
Veritas, Aequitas ~
i watched zeitgeist several months ago, i even started a thread on it.
Snook~ AR Lounge Monitor
3 Threads that get the most responses
Religion Gay Sex
Associate Member
nice dude.
Banned
can anybody list an insightful passage from the bible (i.e) a passage or a small exert
Productive Member
I can't
Veritas, Aequitas ~
definetly. They all kind of go together haha
Anabolic Member
I think too many Christian's forget the sermon on the mount, especially the not judging others one.
Banned
good post bro
Anabolic Member
I suppose the best part is where everyone is having sex. So, I nominate this part with the begats:
================================================== ========
1 Chronicles, chapter 1
"1": Adam, Sheth, Enosh,
"2": Kenan, Mahalaleel, Jered,
"3": Henoch, Methuselah, Lamech,
"4": Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
"5": The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
"6": And the sons of Gomer; Ashchenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
"7": And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
"8": The sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, Put, and Canaan.
"9": And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabta, and Raamah, and Sabtecha. And the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan.
"10": And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be mighty upon the earth.
"11": And Mizraim begat Ludim, and Anamim, and Lehabim, and Naphtuhim,
"12": And Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (of whom came the Philistines,) and Caphthorim.
"13": And Canaan begat Zidon his firstborn, and Heth,
"14": The Jebusite also, and the Amorite, and the Girgashite,
"15": And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite,
"16": And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite.
"17": The sons of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram, and Uz, and Hul, and Gether, and Meshech.
"18": And Arphaxad begat Shelah, and Shelah begat Eber.
"19": And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; because in his days the earth was divided: and his brother's name was Joktan.
"20": And Joktan begat Almodad, and Sheleph, and Hazarmaveth, and Jerah,
"21": Hadoram also, and Uzal, and Diklah,
"22": And Ebal, and Abimael, and Sheba,
"23": And Ophir, and Havilah, and Jobab. All these were the sons of Joktan.
"24": Shem, Arphaxad, Shelah,
"25": Eber, Peleg, Reu,
"26": Serug, Nahor, Terah,
"27": Abram; the same is Abraham.
"28": The sons of Abraham; Isaac, and Ishmael.
"29": These are their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebaioth; then Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
"30": Mishma and Dumah, Massa, Hadad, and Tema,
"31": Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. These are the sons of Ishmael.
"32": Now the sons of Keturah, Abraham's concubine: she bare Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. And the sons of Jokshan; Sheba, and Dedan.
"33": And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Henoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these are the sons of Keturah.
"34": And Abraham begat Isaac. The sons of Isaac; Esau and Israel.
"35": The sons of Esau; Eliphaz, Reuel, and Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah.
"36": The sons of Eliphaz; Teman, and Omar, Zephi, and Gatam, Kenaz, and Timna, and Amalek.
"37": The sons of Reuel; Nahath, Zerah, Shammah, and Mizzah.
"38": And the sons of Seir; Lotan, and Shobal, and Zibeon, and Anah, and Dishon, and Ezer, and Dishan.
"39": And the sons of Lothan; Hori, and Homam: and Timna was Lotan's sister.
"40": The sons of Shobal; Alian, and Manahath, and Ebal, Shephi, and Onam. And the sons of Zibeon; Aiah, and Anah.
"41": The sons of Anah; Dishon. And the sons of Dishon; Amram, and Eshban, and Ithran, and Cheran.
"42": The sons of Ezer; Bilhan, and Zavan, and Jakan. The sons of Dishan; Uz, and Aran.
Associate Member
I once read a article on all different types of religion and the more I read it the dumber it all started to sound. I mean there are soooooo many different gods that man has worshipped throughout time and none of them are based on facts, only faith and very crazy stories. If the bible didnt exist and you met someone who started telling you half the stuff in the bible and belived it and said if you dont believe it too when you die you will burn forever,Man you would probley get as far away from that person as possible and call the mental ward and warn your kids to stay away from the freak. but if you are a kid who has parents that are involved in a religion, no matter what it is or where you live, or what time period you will probley believe that particular religion because thats what you have been fed to believe. yet shown not even a shred of evidence to support it. I think that if the bible said the earth was flat and we hadnt evolved to know now that its not then christians would just believe it and force that belief on you as well. I mean it would be easier to believe that than believe that a cosmic jewish zombie that was born from a virgin, that somehow was his own father, can save your soul from from eternal burning and make you live forever if you telepathicley accept him as your master and symbollicly eat his flesh and drink his blood so he can save you from the evil force that is present in humanity because a woman who was created from a RIB was convinced by a talking snake to eat a piece of fruit from a magical tree. wow that makes perfect sense. how the hell can you belive that? thats basically the foundation of christanity not to mention all the other CRAZY stories in the bible. how many versions of the bible are there anyway? why not believe in THOR or ZUES or any other god that people were convinced was the one and only real god until another influance caused people to believe something different. hey I have an idea lets get a group of people to believe something and believe it so passionately that we have to have a war with another group that believes something else. I also like it when scientsts start talking about facts and real evidence religious people can only talk about faith in something they cant show to be anything more than a very elaborate story. man I could go on forever but I wont waste my time I have better things to do. just my honest opinion.
Last edited by dank1970; 12-09-2007 at 09:39 AM.
Member
i personally do not believe in organized religon. too many to know which is right. i believe in god. period. jahova's witness' used to freak me out, or just the ones that come to your door and knock. they would set there and talk on and on and on, and keep coming back.... its like, "get the point" .... i dont want to affend anyone, in my openion, believe what you want, its not going to hurt me if you dont believe what i dont.....
Associate Member
I as well dont want to offend anyone who believes. I try to look at everything with an open mind, I just cant make any sense of religion and just cant believe in something based on pure faith just because someone else chooses to. I find it odd that people are so convinced without ANY proof at all to support it. If I ever get convicted of a crime and have to have a jury decide my fate I hope its not made up of religious people and the prosacuter is a priest. no evidence needed. I would be screwed
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote