Shoulder, dont know whats wrong!

[boxer08]

I have had a bad right shoulder for around 6 months, ive been able to train but for the last 2 months its got really bad. Latley i aint been able to do much in the gym at all it hurts whilst trainig any upper body part. I also keep getting clicks, and pops as if something is rubbing inside there aswell. Ive trained through it for the 6 months and i think im oing to have to stop soon, im goin to the doctors tommorow is there anything that i should ask im to do.Ive also started taking joint supps for it.

[boxer08]

The pain is sort of like a warm irratating felling its hard to explain.

[InsaneInTheMembrane]

sounds like an A/C joint injury or Distal Clavicle Osteolysis (also called Bench Press shoulders) BUT can't be too sure.. the symptoms you describe are generic so it could be anything... I have a mild case of osteolysis.. it's this deep dull pain that persists...I can do all upper body exercises but bench presses (can only do shallow) and dips are out of the question. Hope yours is a temporary case bro!

cheers

[boxer08]

When its touched it dont cause any pain but when i put my arm across my chest to touch my other shoulder it the pain starts and all press movements causes the most pain. Is there any certain sans i should ask the doctor for and are there any exerises that will hel. Ive also started to ice it.

[barondumonde]

Damn dude you have some serious TENDINOSIS. Clicking and popping is the tell-tale sign of tendon and ligament injury.

[barondumonde]

Don't let the doctors give you anti-inflammatories...they will ruin your shoulder. Take it easy in the gym and give it a few months for the pain to die down. You don't have to stop lifting altogether...but WORK AROUND the injury. Nothing should hurt in the gym.

[PEWN]

have you ever done shoulder presses and one arm feel backwards ..... that happened to me one time when my spotter couldnt hold the weight .... i had to break for a good 3 months before it was healed properly.....

[InsaneInTheMembrane]

When its touched it dont cause any pain but when i put my arm across my chest to touch my other shoulder it the pain starts and all press movements causes the most pain. Is there any certain sans i should ask the doctor for and are there any exerises that will hel. Ive also started to ice it.

yup, sounds like an A/C problem, especially with your range of motion description. It starts off as tendonitis and can progress into osteolysis, which is permanent. I agree with pewn and barondumonde, take it easy for a couple of months and let the inflammation go away on its own...don't take steroidal anti-inflammatories like corticosteroids because I did and it sure did screw up my shoulders permanently (the osteolysis).

Cheers

[barondumonde]

o and DON'T ICE IT!!!!! Trust me on this. YOU NEED HEAT. NOT ICE.

[boxer08]

Ive just got back from the doctors and he did give me anti-inflammatories and a cream to rub on and told me to take 4-6 weeks off and mabye do some light exercise. So i shouldnt take the anti-inlammotries. Should i go back to him and ask for scans's or anythin else. It starting to hurt real bad even when im typing on here and brushing my teeth. Thanks for the help i would of probely ended up takin them and makin things worse.

[barondumonde]

Good stuff bro--you're not making the mistake that most people make when they take the anti-inflammatories. You have to realize that the doctor probably has little or no idea how to treat a sports injury.

He's been taught the "overuse syndrome" theory, and in his mind, you're problem is just that you have a lot of inflammation. He'll give you anti-inflammatories and tell you to ICE your injury so the inflammation goes away...but the inflammation is not your real problem at all...you have injuries to your joint, and the more you anti-inflame and ICE it, the less blood and growth and healing factors will get to the area.

You Need to Exercise LIGHTLY, and get HEAT on that shoulder as much as you can. Don't take any creams, Don't ice it, and don't take any anti-inflammatories...

It's also a good idea to get a good MRI scan of the shoulder. But remember, the MRI isn't reliable, and they might advocate surgery based on something they see on the scan. I can guarantee you only one thing--if you listen to your doctor and take anti-inflammatories and keep on icing your shoulder, your shoulder will degenerate to the point that you will actually NEED surgery.

Again--exercise lightly, eat well--emphasize protein and take good vitamins and minerals, get a good night's rest, and PUT HEAT ON THAT SHOULDER EVERY DAY.

Hope you listen to this...for your own sake.

-baron

[boxer08]

So should i o back to tommorow and ask for a scan and any certain ones.

[barondumonde]

Just get an MRI of your Right Shoulder. CT and x-ray are not as good, and they have radiation. Just be prepared to shell out 150 to 300 pounds for the MRI. I think it's worth it though.

[boxer08]

Im in the uk so its free on the nhs. But its really hard to get from the doctor but ill try my hardest tommorow.

[boxer08]

My left shoulder is the same aswell but not as bad as the left.

[barondumonde]

yo boxer I can tell you already that you have connective tissue injuries--injuries to the tendons, ligaments, and other tissues in your shoulders. That's probably what they'll see on the MRI. They usually can't see much in the way of injuries to the tendons and ligaments, but they'll see the inflammation (which is only a marker, being secondary to the real problem--the degenerating joint.) Sometimes they can also see the damage to the shoulder joint capsule internally.

I think the MRI is good because it can be used for comparison to anything that happens in the future. Not necessary though--because I just told you what's wrong, and in any case--the treatment is the same. HEAT, light exercise, nutrition, rest, etc.

[boxer08]

What is it that the nsaid's do to make it worse mate. I have taken them in the past for lower back problems and i still have the problems which the physio said its to do with the joints so im guessing they made it worse.

[TallMan]

What is it that the nsaid's do to make it worse mate. I have taken them in the past for lower back problems and i still have the problems which the physio said its to do with the joints so im guessing they made it worse.

I'm also curious about that !

[boxer08]

Is there ny website or article on the internet that i could tell the doctor to look at to show him that the nsaid are not good for the injury.

[almostgone]

Providing you haven't severely damaged your shoulder joint, there's 1 exercise that I've used that may give you some relief. Get one of the cheap "kiddie" beach balls (like 10"-12" diameter or so). Stand facing a wall at about 1-1/2 arm lengths distance away from the wall. Place the ball against the wall at shoulder height and hold it there with the palm of your hand (You should be leaning forward at a slight angle). Now make small circles clockwise for 1-2 minutes and then do the same thing in a counterclockwise direction. Do this several times a day if it feels "comfortable". This will give you a SLIGHT resistance for your shoulder to work with and keep the joint mobile.
MY PT and orthopedist told me the worst thing you could do with a shoulder injury is to completely immobilize it because it will generally lead to an impingement.
Since your exact problem isn't known, I won't comment on the heat/ice treatment. I used cold packs, but my bursa was ruptured.

AG

[barondumonde]

I'm also curious about that !

check this out:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=328190

[barondumonde]

Is there ny website or article on the internet that i could tell the doctor to look at to show him that the nsaid are not good for the injury.

i wouldn't try and explain it to the doctor as that would freak him out. He is approached by drug representatives every week who try and push him the anti-inflammatories as a "treatment" for joint pain and "tendonitis." This is what he's been taught. He probably doesn't have much of an understanding of the fact that some types of inflammation are good for joints because they bring blood and growth/repair factors into the area...so when you take anti-inflammatories or ice the joint, the pain from the inflammation may die down a little, but you've just pretty much destroyed your own body's last ditch effort to heal your injury. What happens now is that you are well on your way to chronic pain and eventual joint replacement surgery.

Compound that with the fact that anti-inflammatories have widespread other side effects in the body including effects on your digestive lining, and it should be obvious that they should not be taken except for very specific and demanding circumstances...but they also happen to be a very profitable drug for drug companies, so don't expect anyone to try and change the status quo.

[boxer08]

If i do get a mri wouldnt i beable to get both shoulders and my back scaned at the same time. Dont an mri scan the whole body. Also i iant able to do any light exercise without pain, is there any exercise's you would recommend that wouldnt cause any pain. thanks for the help mate.

[barondumonde]

You're thinking of a "Full-Body MRI," or of an "Upper Body MRI." Not all MRIs are the same. The radiologists can adjust the scan for whichever study (of body parts) your doctor orders.

As for the pain--if everything causes you pain, then you have to use your best judgement. I wouldn't worry about weak pain. I'd suggest doing light dumbbell shoulder presses, lateral raises and front raises with very light weights but with high reps, and NO Bench Pressing. Make sure to take some fish oil as that will help with the healing and will reduce pain from the inflammation naturally.

[boxer08]

At the moment im taking Liquid glucostamine, chondroitin & Msm complex, liquid fish oil and mutli-vitamin, muti-mineral formula with beta carotene are these okay and is there anything else i could use to speed up the healing process. Thanks again

[barondumonde]

take extra vitamin C and make sure you have high DHEA, Testosterone, and IGF-1 levels. Get a good night's rest every night and apply LOTS OF HEAT.

There's no need to make things more complicated. Sounds like you're doing all the right things.

[boxer08]

I had my test levels checked not that long back and they are normal. Im going to go and have a chat with the doctor on monday i try and get that mri aswell. So i should just buy extra vitamin c and take it aswell as my multi-vitamin. My sleep has been really bad fot the last 6 months cause of the baby the doctor give me Gabapentin. Are these okay to take.

[barondumonde]

I really don't know much about Gabapentin. It sounds like GABA, which would help, but I don't know much about it. I don't think it has any anti-inflammatory properties, so it might not be too bad. I know it is used as a sleep aid, but if it's better sleep your after, you can also take a look at Melatonin (you don't need more than 1mg), HTP (no more than 200mg/night), and Tryptophan. If you want something herbal, take a look at valerian root (200mg to 800mg per night),

[barondumonde]

o and know not to take too much vitamin C (more than 6g/day) as it may cause a little bit of diarrhea...but it is otherwise harmless. Yes, just buy some extra and take 2g with each meal.

[boxer08]

Ive tried velrian root. The doctor give me gabapentin to help sleep if you put it in on wilkepedia it will come up. Ill keep you updated on the shoulder. Ive got physio tommorow for my back.

[boxer08]

Went to the physio and he said that it wa okay to take nsaid and to ice the shoulder. I just dont know what to do anymore.

[TallMan]

Went to the physio and he said that it wa okay to take nsaid and to ice the shoulder. I just dont know what to do anymore.

I'd listen to Barondumonde. Physiotherapie is kind of out of date and this bro seems to know where he's talking about.
NSAID's never did anyone good and why would you ice an injury unless it just happened to restrict futher damage ?

@Barondumonde,
Been heating my elbow for a few days cause it started to hurt a few weeks ago and it seems to help a little.
What about my 4 year old shoulder injury ? Nothing seems to work for that, I tried everything (fysio, RC exersizes, operated, fysio, cesar, active release seemed to work te most). What would you advise ?

[barondumonde]

I'd listen to Barondumonde. Physiotherapie is kind of out of date and this bro seems to know where he's talking about.
NSAID's never did anyone good and why would you ice an injury unless it just happened to restrict futher damage ?

@Barondumonde,
Been heating my elbow for a few days cause it started to hurt a few weeks ago and it seems to help a little.
What about my 4 year old shoulder injury ? Nothing seems to work for that, I tried everything (fysio, RC exersizes, operated, fysio, cesar, active release seemed to work te most). What would you advise ?

Sounds like you need some prolotherapy...I've had the treatment myself and it's responsible for my recovery from systemic connective tissue deficiency syndrome...it's so far repaired half my body...still in the process though.

The one warning I have about the treatment is that there are a lot of doctors claiming that they do it, and most of them have no idea what they are doing. If you can afford it, I wouldn't waste my time with anyone other than Dr. Ross Hauser in Chicago.

For more information, check out prolotherapy.org

There are other doctors who claim they do it well, but almost all of them are mediocre at best.

[barondumonde]

Went to the physio and he said that it wa okay to take nsaid and to ice the shoulder. I just dont know what to do anymore.

Dude I understand your frustration--I remember at one point when I was really ****ed up and my entire body was in severe pain, I walked into one orthoped's office and I honestly walked out to my car, sat down, and cried for a good 10 minutes before I started driving home...all those ****ing dumb physicians think they know what they're doing when in reality they're just a bunch of trained seals for large pharmaceutical company profits.

Don't Ice or use NSAIDS. The only exception to this is if you have Bursitis, in which case there is a small chance of complications arising from the inflammation itself, and in which case it might be acceptable to use ICE or NSAIDs.

Other than that, there is just a whole shitload of ignorance and bad habits that continue to be pushed by athletic coaches and ignorant doctors and physicians who don't understand the differences between muscle and joint injuries. The final word is that ICE or NSAIDs should not be used by anyone who actually wants to keep his joints. They are fine for relieving the pain of 80-year old ladies who are confined to their wheelchairs, but they shouldn't by anyone who wants to have his joints function in the future.

I want to make sure EVERYONE realizes something:

THE INFLAMMATION IS NOT THE PROBLEM. THE INFLAMMATION IS ONLY A SIDE EFFECT OF THE TENDINOSIS (OR OTHER JOINT DAMAGE) THAT IS TAKING PLACE IN YOUR JOINT.

THE ANTI-INFLAMMATORIES WILL DO LITTLE MORE THAN HALT THE ENTIRE INFLAMMATORY AND HEALING PROCESS. ALTHOUGH THEY MIGHT POSSIBLY REDUCE SOME OF THE PAIN FROM INFLAMMATION, BY STOPPING THE HEALING PROCESS, NSAIDS LEAD YOUR JOINT WELL FORWARD ALONG THE DEGENERATION PROCESS.

[TallMan]

Sounds like you need some prolotherapy...I've had the treatment myself and it's responsible for my recovery from systemic connective tissue deficiency syndrome...it's so far repaired half my body...still in the process though.

The one warning I have about the treatment is that there are a lot of doctors claiming that they do it, and most of them have no idea what they are doing. If you can afford it, I wouldn't waste my time with anyone other than Dr. Ross Hauser in Chicago.

For more information, check out prolotherapy.org

There are other doctors who claim they do it well, but almost all of them are mediocre at best.

aight thanks bro, I'm gonna read that site tonight
I hope there are any good prolotherapists in Holland, I've never heard of anything like it.

[boxer08]

Shoulder still the same. I tried to train a little yesterday but the pain came straight away then worsend again. Went back to the doc's and he's refered me to some new sort of clinic that deals with stuff like this so im waiting for a letter. The doc cant refer for mri anymore a otherpidic surgeon has to do it which the clinic refer's you to if needed. At the moment i cant really aford one, where i am they are 350 pound plus and if i get refered for one theres a 9 month waitin list. IS there any supplement that you would recommend for the joints, cat and ligimants. Thanks again

[barondumonde]

Shoulder still the same. I tried to train a little yesterday but the pain came straight away then worsend again. Went back to the doc's and he's refered me to some new sort of clinic that deals with stuff like this so im waiting for a letter. The doc cant refer for mri anymore a otherpidic surgeon has to do it which the clinic refer's you to if needed. At the moment i cant really aford one, where i am they are 350 pound plus and if i get refered for one theres a 9 month waitin list. IS there any supplement that you would recommend for the joints, cat and ligimants. Thanks again

I hate to have to tell you that there's not much else that I know of...joint injuries are difficult to get through. It takes months, even years for them to heal even a little bit.

Good luck making the right decisions with your shoulder...I know that the doctors you're about to see will likely confuse you with their recommendations and treatment plans.

[boxer08]

Just been to my physio and he's saying that theres not much else he can do. He still will not give me a mri but said that he is going to have a chat with someone and give me a call some time next week.. He also said that he will prob send me for a x-ray for my back problem.

[barondumonde]

Just been to my physio and he's saying that theres not much else he can do. He still will not give me a mri but said that he is going to have a chat with someone and give me a call some time next week.. He also said that he will prob send me for a x-ray for my back problem.

sounds like the man has finally resorted to honesty...btw, how's your shoulder doing after a few weeks of light exercise, heat, and proper nighttime sleep?

[boxer08]

It's still bad but not as bad as it was, im still getting the grinding and clicking and still aint been to the gym yet. Im startin to lose my shape now now but my weight is holding. Hopefully it shouldnt be much loner now i was thinking of going down the gym on monday to see how thins go.