Best QB?

[jimmyinkedup]

McNabb may be in the same boat Elway was in UNTIL he one the big game.....

[JAYROD]

man there is just so many great names....and there is no definitive on anyone..

what do you pick by......leadership? success in win/loss department? stats? superbowl rings? fortitude in tough times? the list goes on.....

too tough for me to call..

you are right on the money because there are so many ways to judge a qb. i think the best is a combination of all you have listed here and i really like "fortitude in tough times". i also like clutch in big games (see joe montana) he simply was the michael jordan of football in big games come crunch time. going with all this i still like elway and montana in the top spots.

as far as vick is concerned he never was an nfl qb and never will be an nfl qb. you can be struck by his flashes of physical talent all you want but that doesn't make a great nfl qb and how his name was even brought up is unbelievable. 1,000 yard rusher is impressive so go be a halfback.

[BgMc31]

you are right on the money because there are so many ways to judge a qb. i think the best is a combination of all you have listed here and i really like "fortitude in tough times". i also like clutch in big games (see joe montana) he simply was the michael jordan of football in big games come crunch time. going with all this i still like elway and montana in the top spots.

as far as vick is concerned he never was an nfl qb and never will be an nfl qb. you can be struck by his flashes of physical talent all you want but that doesn't make a great nfl qb and how his name was even brought up is unbelievable. 1,000 yard rusher is impressive so go be a halfback.

You are letting your dislike of Vick cloud your judgement about him as a NFL QB. 3000yds passing is pretty good for a QB, 1,000 yds rushing is decent for a running back, but doing both in the same season...IS UNHEARD OF!! Plus you fell to overlook his wins/loss record and the fact that he never had a go to receiver. Please list the name of heralded QBs who did as much with so little! I guarantee that is would be incredibly short. AND IM NOT SAYING THAT VICK IS ONE OF THE GREATS, but to say he isn't an NFL QB is assinine!!!

Let's see 38-28 record (60% winning pct). Close to 12,000yds passing (75 QB rating lifetime), close to 4,0000 yds rushing in only 6 seasons and only 4 as a full time starter. Not to mention playing in 6 different offensive schemes.

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ yeah well we can talk all day about what Vick MIGHT have been ...there's a legacy truly fvcked and a rare talent truly wasted due to piss poor judgment.... Id be surprised if the NFL touches him. Although lately if the NFL went out of business we'd have to build several more prisons to hold the additional inmates ...so who knows....

[BgMc31]

^^^ yeah well we can talk all day about what Vick MIGHT have been ...there's a legacy truly fvcked and a rare talent truly wasted due to piss poor judgment.... Id be surprised if the NFL touches him. Although lately if the NFL went out of business we'd have to build several more prisons to hold the additional inmates ...so who knows....

I'm not talking about what Vick MIGHT have done, look at my above posts, I've talked about what Vick HAS done. Again, I'm not saying he's a great QB, but the thought of him not being qualified as NFL QB is ridiculous.

Secondly, I can list a host of beloved NFL players who have much more severe vices than dog fighting. Vicks only problem is, like you said, piss poor judgement, but he's hardly a bane on society. Of course there will be teams who will take him. Why not, one serious f*ck up, he admitted guilt and paid his debt to society.

Like I said before, if a known drug addict and habitual DUI guy can be the NFL's most beloved poster boy (Brett Favre), why can't a guy resume his career after paying the consequences of his actions? Kinda of hypocritical don't you think?

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ hey i never said he wasn't an nfl qb ...not at all ..i feel its a shame - the time hes lost ... I also referred to what he might have been - re: his legacy is tarnished - no matter how right or wrong ...it is. I never questioned his performance. Slow down a bit and read what i posted.
your mighty confrontational lately - you taking Halo???? *L*
We'll see what happens ...a lot of pressure will be exerted in recent light of events in NFL involving players...i dont think he is a shoe in to return ....

[jimmyinkedup]

BgMc31 - the thread topic and first post here IS the best QB of all time....i think as you said we both agree vick isnt there...and IMO due to his piss poor judgment may never be.....time will tell

[BgMc31]

^^^Nah, not on halo brotha!! I wasn't actually referring to your posts. I though you were defending Jayrod's posts. So if I took what you wrote out of context, I apologize. As a former NFL player, I take it personal, I tire of the hypocritical attitudes some talk about when they idolize players like Favre and Marino and demonize players like Vick and Terrel Owens (I despise TO BTW, but everyone I talked to and know who played with Marino says he was a much bigger pima donna and asshole than TO).

Regardless of past transgressions, I guarantee someone will give Vick a shot, albeit with some severe contract stipulations (similar to Ricky Williams). Just wait and see.

[BgMc31]

Sorry about the hijacking!!! LOL!!! I'll reiterate my stance... JOHN ELWAY IS THE BEST QB EVER!!! And I hate like hell to admit that!!! LOL!!!

[jimmyinkedup]

^^ i hope so ...u made a good point his transgressions are far less severe than some who are currently playing - no doubt...i hope he doesnt get caught up in a showtime version of the NFL "cleaning up its image" or some political BS like that....
*L* oh back on topic... (sorry for the hijack / sidetrack)

[ClubberLangsUncle]

1st Kurt Warner isn't underrated, he only excels with tremendous talent around him. Look at him in St. Louis, he had Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt at reciever and Marshall Faulk in the back field. This year, he has Fitzgerald and Bolden. Look what happended when he didn't have tremendous talent around him, he sucked and ended up getting benched.

2nd Brady is a system quarterback. Again, he is also surrounded by tremendous talent, not to mention the proof is in the pudding. When Cassel took over he's done well and this man hasn't started a game since high school. That Bellichek system is perfect for a standup, drop back quarterback.

3rd Talent-wise, Dan Marino was probably the most talented. Look at the numbers! Him not winning the big one is 100% his fault. He balked at drafting a top level running back every year he was in the league. He wanted to focus to be the passing game. Totally selfish guy.

4th For all you Vick haters, look at the numbers. The man is a winner, regardless of what your feeling about the man are. He's the only QB to run for 1000 and pass for 3000 in the same season. All this and only having a decent tight end to throw to. Never a go to reciever. That's talent for sure. Not to mention the man had a different offensive coordinator just about every year he was in the league. Anybody who knows football, it takes years to learn a offensive system completely. And since you all are bashing him for dog-fighting (which I don't agree with), but I guess he's a much worse person than a drug addict with multiple DUI's (Brett Favre).

5th Finally as much as I hate to admit it, the best QB of all time is John Elway. Was a consistent winner with limited talent around him until he got a top running back and then he won two super bowls. Awesome talent all around, great arm, mobile, fearless.

Here's a question, since someone brought up Kurt Warner, what about Donovan McNabb? 6 NFC Championship games in 8yrs. One Super Bowl appearance and has never been blessed with any offensive help, except for Brian Westbrook. With a top level reciever, he took his team to the super bowl. Not to mention the man is only 32yrs old. He's a winner with big numbers.

The QBs of old are hard to talk about in this era. The game was a lot different then. Johnny U, Terry Bradshaw, Dan Fouts, Broadway Joe, even with tremendous talent, the ariel assaults that we see today weren't as prevalent.

But I have to agree with what someone above posted, when it's all said and done, Peyton Manning will be the tops. Lacks mobility, but I've never seen a quarterback with such a grasp for the game. Some call the man a football sauvant.

Ill agree with everything, but with one glaring omission, Joe Montanna. Not the most raw talent, but a winner, leader and accurate. Does not loose big games like Mcnabb. Sorry, but in big spots Mcnabb chokes, and Vick can only take a team so far, and cant stay healthy. Elway, had the best O line in the league, and with TD running wild....
If you add everything up, Super Bowl wins and Playoff preformance, 12 win seasons, not choking in big spots, ratings, stats, even regular season wins, Joe Montanna is number one, for gods sake he took the cheifs to the playoffs. And trust me, I hated the 49ers, and by the way, he did not always have Rice to throw to.

[BgMc31]

^^^I would be hard pressed to argue with that assumption brotha!!! My only argument would be the talent around him (ie Rice, Rathman, Craig, Clark, loaded defense that included Ronnie Lott) not to mention a tremendous coaching staff that included Mariucchi, Tony Dungy, etc. But he did take the Chiefs to the playoffs so that says a lot!

[BgMc31]

Ill agree with everything, but with one glaring omission, Joe Montanna. Not the most raw talent, but a winner, leader and accurate. Does not loose big games like Mcnabb. Sorry, but in big spots Mcnabb chokes, and Vick can only take a team so far, and cant stay healthy. Elway, had the best O line in the league, and with TD running wild....
If you add everything up, Super Bowl wins and Playoff preformance, 12 win seasons, not choking in big spots, ratings, stats, even regular season wins, Joe Montanna is number one, for gods sake he took the cheifs to the playoffs. And trust me, I hated the 49ers, and by the way, he did not always have Rice to throw to.

What I highlighted is simply not true. Name one hall of famer on that offensive line? You can't! It wasn't the best offensive line, they had the best scheme. At that time the zone blocking scheme was only used by the Broncos. It utilized smaller, quicker, offensive linemen that gave TD the option of which holes to run to instead having a designated hole to run to.

[ClubberLangsUncle]

Cross, Mcintyre, Quillan, Fahnhorst, all tackles, guards and centers, all milti-prowbowlers in the Montanna era. Not hall of fame, but still dame good. Not to mention the great blockin by there tight ends.

[ClubberLangsUncle]

Cross, Mcintyre, Quillan, Fahnhorst, all tackles, guards and centers, all milti-prowbowlers in the Montanna era. Not hall of fame, but still dame good. Not to mention the great blockin by there tight ends.

opps, i thought you said san fran.

[peace_frog]

[QUOTE=BgMc31;4390986]1st Kurt Warner isn't underrated, he only excels with tremendous talent around him. Look at him in St. Louis, he had Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt at reciever and Marshall Faulk in the back field. This year, he has Fitzgerald and Bolden. Look what happended when he didn't have tremendous talent around him, he sucked and ended up getting benched.

2nd Brady is a system quarterback. Again, he is also surrounded by tremendous talent, not to mention the proof is in the pudding. When Cassel took over he's done well and this man hasn't started a game since high school. That Bellichek system is perfect for a standup, drop back quarterback. [QUOTE]



Kurt Warner IS underrated. Your statement almost proves that point. Saying he only wins with extreme tallent around him? You can say that about many QB. But lets just stick with AZ. They have had Boldin and Fitz for 5 and 6 years respectively. How good have they been so far? They have never really had a running game, including this year, and their D has been mediocre at best. Two good WR does not a SB team make. They were even without Boldin for a while lets not forget. It takes a whole team to win, and you cant just say a guy is only good because of the surrounding tallent. That is rarely the case with a QB. If a QB is good, and he has tallent to throw to, chances are he will be a darn good QB. Take a crappy QB and give him tallent and tell me what kind of team you have. Warner has had a near 90 passing rating or better in every year he has started(avg 94% career). Nearly a 65 completion percentage or better in every year he started(avg. over 65% career) And has thrown for almost 30k yards. This all comes from a QB that couldnt scramble to save his life. He only played a full season(16 games) 3 times in his career and still put up those numbers. He threw for almost 3500 yards last year. But we dont really remember that do we? This will be his 3rd Superbowl as well, and he has one SB win under his belt.


You know what makes a GREAT QB? Being on winning teams, putting up consistant numbers, and doing it over a significant period of time. Most any Great QB that has been mentioned already fits that bill. And when I say winning, I dont mean having a SB under your belt, but that certainly helps a lot. Dan Marino fits that bill. No SB, but is still known as a Great. You can be a Great over less time if you win several SBs, but it still takes some sort of longevity.

So I guess my point is, Warner IS underrated, but he isnt one of the Greatest all time. If he wins this superbowl, and with his previous numbers and SB win plus a couple of MVPs and Probowls , he should atleast be recognised as one of our gens. awesome QBs. He just helped take the lowly cardinals to their first Superbowl EVER. Warner to me has been impressive , a likable guy, and a GREAT story to go along with a very good career. I think people forget all he has accomplished and that makes him underrated in my book. If you look, his numbers are surpisingly close to Jim Kellys numbers, and thats nothing to sneeze at.

I dont know who the Greatest Ever was, Id throw a vote for Elway and Montana for sure.

[peace_frog]

Also, it seems to me you are to willing to just throw everyone into some 'catagory'. Catagory 1. The QB had all sorts or tallent so thus is the only reason he is good; Catagory 2. The QB is very good becasue he never had any tallent.

Let me take Tom Brady for an example. He is Catagory 1. Can you name me all the tallent that surrounded him durring the first SB win or even second? RB Antowain Smith, WRs Troy Brown, and David Patten, TE Jermain Wiggins. If your not a Pats fan, you wouldnt even remember who they had that year...thats how unremarkable their team was. This whole "system QB' argument is junk and always will be. How the hell could you know if any of the great QBs would have done as well in other systems. What if Montana and Elway had gone to another system when they were at the hight of their career? Would we say "oh , put them in any other system and they would suck". I dont think you would hear that. Why do you then put Brady in that catagory? He has shown nothing but excellence since becoming the starting QB in N.E. If you want to say the Patriots had tremendous tallent, then why dont you argue that the whole team were system guys? Ty Law , Lawyer Malloy, Terry Glenn, Deion Branch, David Givens. Daniel Graham.....where are all these 'tallented' guys now? Where did they go when they left the Pats for big money? They've never really had great running outside of a couple years with Dillon. And when they finally did give Brady some weapons(Wes Welker, Randy Moss), they had an undefeated season. A system is alway addapting. So really, whats in a system. A system is finding guys that can execute the kind of 'system' that is set up for winning. Payton Manning has been surrounded by endless tallent forever. Is he just a system guy? Elway always had recievers and Rb and D...was he only good becasue of all that tallent, or was his tallent only as good as he was? Its a rediculous argument.

[ClubberLangsUncle]

Also, it seems to me you are to willing to just throw everyone into some 'catagory'. Catagory 1. The QB had all sorts or tallent so thus is the only reason he is good; Catagory 2. The QB is very good becasue he never had any tallent.

Let me take Tom Brady for an example. He is Catagory 1. Can you name me all the tallent that surrounded him durring the first SB win or even second? RB Antowain Smith, WRs Troy Brown, and David Patten, TE Jermain Wiggins. If your not a Pats fan, you wouldnt even remember who they had that year...thats how unremarkable their team was. This whole "system QB' argument is junk and always will be. How the hell could you know if any of the great QBs would have done as well in other systems. What if Montana and Elway had gone to another system when they were at the hight of their career? Would we say "oh , put them in any other system and they would suck". I dont think you would hear that. Why do you then put Brady in that catagory? He has shown nothing but excellence since becoming the starting QB in N.E. If you want to say the Patriots had tremendous tallent, then why dont you argue that the whole team were system guys? Ty Law , Lawyer Malloy, Terry Glenn, Deion Branch, David Givens. Daniel Graham.....where are all these 'tallented' guys now? Where did they go when they left the Pats for big money? They've never really had great running outside of a couple years with Dillon. And when they finally did give Brady some weapons(Wes Welker, Randy Moss), they had an undefeated season. A system is alway addapting. So really, whats in a system. A system is finding guys that can execute the kind of 'system' that is set up for winning. Payton Manning has been surrounded by endless tallent forever. Is he just a system guy? Elway always had recievers and Rb and D...was he only good becasue of all that tallent, or was his tallent only as good as he was? Its a rediculous argument.

Dont forget Brady had the benefit of knowing the coverage before the snap, that cheatin went along way to pad his passing stats, you can have average talent and still put up numbers with that.

[BgMc31]

[QUOTE=peace_frog;4394541][QUOTE=BgMc31;4390986]1st Kurt Warner isn't underrated, he only excels with tremendous talent around him. Look at him in St. Louis, he had Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt at reciever and Marshall Faulk in the back field. This year, he has Fitzgerald and Bolden. Look what happended when he didn't have tremendous talent around him, he sucked and ended up getting benched.

2nd Brady is a system quarterback. Again, he is also surrounded by tremendous talent, not to mention the proof is in the pudding. When Cassel took over he's done well and this man hasn't started a game since high school. That Bellichek system is perfect for a standup, drop back quarterback.

Kurt Warner IS underrated. Your statement almost proves that point. Saying he only wins with extreme tallent around him? You can say that about many QB. But lets just stick with AZ. They have had Boldin and Fitz for 5 and 6 years respectively. How good have they been so far? They have never really had a running game, including this year, and their D has been mediocre at best. Two good WR does not a SB team make. They were even without Boldin for a while lets not forget. It takes a whole team to win, and you cant just say a guy is only good because of the surrounding tallent. That is rarely the case with a QB. If a QB is good, and he has tallent to throw to, chances are he will be a darn good QB. Take a crappy QB and give him tallent and tell me what kind of team you have. Warner has had a near 90 passing rating or better in every year he has started(avg 94% career). Nearly a 65 completion percentage or better in every year he started(avg. over 65% career) And has thrown for almost 30k yards. This all comes from a QB that couldnt scramble to save his life. He only played a full season(16 games) 3 times in his career and still put up those numbers. He threw for almost 3500 yards last year. But we dont really remember that do we? This will be his 3rd Superbowl as well, and he has one SB win under his belt.


You know what makes a GREAT QB? Being on winning teams, putting up consistant numbers, and doing it over a significant period of time. Most any Great QB that has been mentioned already fits that bill. And when I say winning, I dont mean having a SB under your belt, but that certainly helps a lot. Dan Marino fits that bill. No SB, but is still known as a Great. You can be a Great over less time if you win several SBs, but it still takes some sort of longevity.

So I guess my point is, Warner IS underrated, but he isnt one of the Greatest all time. If he wins this superbowl, and with his previous numbers and SB win plus a couple of MVPs and Probowls , he should atleast be recognised as one of our gens. awesome QBs. He just helped take the lowly cardinals to their first Superbowl EVER. Warner to me has been impressive , a likable guy, and a GREAT story to go along with a very good career. I think people forget all he has accomplished and that makes him underrated in my book. If you look, his numbers are surpisingly close to Jim Kellys numbers, and thats nothing to sneeze at.

I dont know who the Greatest Ever was, Id throw a vote for Elway and Montana for sure.

I have to disagree with your entire accessment, but that is the benefit of these forums. I can go on forever about Warner and his misgivings as well as having intimate "knowledge" of Bellicheks system. But you make good points.

[Brown Ninja]

Marc Bulger

[freakinhuge]

I'll take a healthy Tom Brady over anyone.

[Brown Ninja]

Well hopefully we get to see him that way next year.

[JAYROD]

You are letting your dislike of Vick cloud your judgement about him as a NFL QB. 3000yds passing is pretty good for a QB, 1,000 yds rushing is decent for a running back, but doing both in the same season...IS UNHEARD OF!! Plus you fell to overlook his wins/loss record and the fact that he never had a go to receiver. Please list the name of heralded QBs who did as much with so little! I guarantee that is would be incredibly short. AND IM NOT SAYING THAT VICK IS ONE OF THE GREATS, but to say he isn't an NFL QB is assinine!!!

Let's see 38-28 record (60% winning pct). Close to 12,000yds passing (75 QB rating lifetime), close to 4,0000 yds rushing in only 6 seasons and only 4 as a full time starter. Not to mention playing in 6 different offensive schemes.

i'm not sure why you think i dislike michael vick because i don't. i don't "like" or "dislike" marino, farve, mcnabb, elway, t.o. or any current or past nfl player. i just don't think michael vick should be disscussed when talking about the "greatest ever qb's" and frankly it's very absurd. i've been watching nfl and college football since the mid 1980"s and ALOT of football at that and imo michael vick is nowhere near a great nfl qb and i don't think he ever will (which you have said yourself). i'm not an idiot and i do see his talent but i also seen ryan leafs unbelievable talent but he obviously won't be on any "greatest of all time" lists either. maybe you like vick and this has clouded your judgement or maybe you really think he's a good nfl qb which I think is assinine!!!

[jimmyinkedup]

vick will be a randall cunningham - good quality quarterback - but never considered an all time great IMO....
Also i know there has been debate re Curt Warner ....i 'll say this - he had good receivers ...but so did almost ALL great QBs - even Elway had SOME talent there - and he's (elway) prob done the most with least ever overall. To say Marino had no talent - simply not true - Clayton and Duper...um I know for sure 1 is in HOF and the other had some seasons that warrant consideration ...and they were a tandem receiving team. However to say Warner is average ...mmm i think that's an understatement - He sure as hell read the eagles defense (a top d in the nfl) better than just about anyone and early enough in the count to make it VERY ineffective....

[BgMc31]

i'm not sure why you think i dislike michael vick because i don't. i don't "like" or "dislike" marino, farve, mcnabb, elway, t.o. or any current or past nfl player. i just don't think michael vick should be disscussed when talking about the "greatest ever qb's" and frankly it's very absurd. i've been watching nfl and college football since the mid 1980"s and ALOT of football at that and imo michael vick is nowhere near a great nfl qb and i don't think he ever will (which you have said yourself). i'm not an idiot and i do see his talent but i also seen ryan leafs unbelievable talent but he obviously won't be on any "greatest of all time" lists either. maybe you like vick and this has clouded your judgement or maybe you really think he's a good nfl qb which I think is assinine!!!

Did you read anything I wrote dude, or just the part where you think I called you an idiot? I did neither, nor did I ever call Vick one of the greatest ever. I was replying to your accessment of him, which I thought was off base. You may have been watching football since the mid 80's but while you were watching it, I was playing it well up until 2002 (at every level), so let's not get into a pissing match over who has more knowledge of the game.

[BgMc31]

vick will be a randall cunningham - good quality quarterback - but never considered an all time great IMO....
Also i know there has been debate re Curt Warner ....i 'll say this - he had good receivers ...but so did almost ALL great QBs - even Elway had SOME talent there - and he's (elway) prob done the most with least ever overall. To say Marino had no talent - simply not true - Clayton and Duper...um I know for sure 1 is in HOF and the other had some seasons that warrant consideration ...and they were a tandem receiving team. However to say Warner is average ...mmm i think that's an understatement - He sure as hell read the eagles defense (a top d in the nfl) better than just about anyone and early enough in the count to make it VERY ineffective....

Very good comparison between Vick and Cunningham. You were wrong about Marino's talent though, neither Clayton, nor Duper are in the Hall of Fame. I never said Warner was average, I merely stated that without the talent around him, he doesn't excel. Elway had a tremendous career for years without any major talent around him. Shannon Sharpe developed at the end of Elways career and TD gave him the over the top help to finally win a Super Bowl.

[JAYROD]

Did you read anything I wrote dude, or just the part where you think I called you an idiot? I did neither, nor did I ever call Vick one of the greatest ever. I was replying to your accessment of him, which I thought was off base. You may have been watching football since the mid 80's but while you were watching it, I was playing it well up until 2002 (at every level), so let's not get into a pissing match over who has more knowledge of the game.

you must not have read anything i wrote. where did i say you called me an idiot? i didn't. where did i say that YOU called vick one of the greatest? i didn't. you think what you think and i think what i think. there are some that agree with you and some that agree with me. i played a little football myself and if not for a serious knee injury i might have played at every level also. i went to school and played with a handful of guys that were on nfl rosters, work with a former corner who was a pro bowler and live next door to an x nfl player and i assure you not all them are more knowledgable about the game of football than i am just because they played in the nfl. i don't get into a pissing contest with any of these guys when we argue about sports and they never once thought because they were fortunate enough to make that their opinions were more valid than mine. we dissagree, fine. i'm not getting pissy. i don't know you and you don't me.

[jimmyinkedup]

Very good comparison between Vick and Cunningham. You were wrong about Marino's talent though, neither Clayton, nor Duper are in the Hall of Fame. I never said Warner was average, I merely stated that without the talent around him, he doesn't excel. Elway had a tremendous career for years without any major talent around him. Shannon Sharpe developed at the end of Elways career and TD gave him the over the top help to finally win a Super Bowl.

great point re elway and sharpe - i was gonna post sharpe ....and i honestly couldnt think of another name to list for elway after i made the post...i think he's my # 1 qb pick...
early in this thread i said elway or montana - but your point re: talent has me siding with elway...

[ClubberLangsUncle]

I'll take a healthy Tom Brady over anyone.

Brady on any other team on in any other system would suck balls, just like he did in college. But his cheatin sure helped his stats.

[BgMc31]

you must not have read anything i wrote. where did i say you called me an idiot? i didn't. where did i say that YOU called vick one of the greatest? i didn't. you think what you think and i think what i think. there are some that agree with you and some that agree with me. i played a little football myself and if not for a serious knee injury i might have played at every level also. i went to school and played with a handful of guys that were on nfl rosters, work with a former corner who was a pro bowler and live next door to an x nfl player and i assure you not all them are more knowledgable about the game of football than i am just because they played in the nfl. i don't get into a pissing contest with any of these guys when we argue about sports and they never once thought because they were fortunate enough to make that their opinions were more valid than mine. we dissagree, fine. i'm not getting pissy. i don't know you and you don't me.

I'm not sure where you read I said Mick Vick was one of the greatest, but if you read post #43 I clearly said he wasn't. But I'm gonna leave it at that. This is assinine. I deal with coulda-been cats all the time who think they know the game better than the athletes that have played it or coached it at a high level (arm chair quarterbacks). And don't give me that knee injury excuse...never mind, I don't want to rant anymore, you've got your opinions and I have mind.

Now back to the original question...whoever said Bulger, I think that further proves my point about Kirk Warner, because Bulger had similar (no superbowls though because he has less talent) success in that system.

So I'll stick with John Elway as my #1 simply because he did so much with so little. But when it's all said and done, Peyton will destroy all records plus have at least 2 more SuperBowls under his belt.

What does everyone think about Jim Kelly (Buffaloe Bills). Can't deny he was good (4 Superbowl experiences). And he didn't have a whole lot to work with either. Although he did have Thurman Thomas and a great D.

[BgMc31]

Brady on any other team on in any other system would suck balls, just like he did in college. But his cheatin sure helped his stats.

It's kinda tough to say any quarterback at that level would suck, Clubber. And as far as his 'cheatin' is concerned...the Pats just got caught. Trust me when I tell you, everyone does it. It's kinda like steroids in football , it's a subject you know everyone knows about, but never talks about.

[jimmyinkedup]

yeah ...kelly was def a great one ....seems almost a shame that a qb that good and who doesnt seem like an a$$hole at all didnt get the superbowl ring.... (i know personality shouldnt factor in performance - but to me it does to an extent)
oh btw who was kellys go to receiver ? Andre Reid ???

[JAYROD]

I'm not sure where you read I said Mick Vick was one of the greatest, but if you read post #43 I clearly said he wasn't. But I'm gonna leave it at that. This is assinine. I deal with coulda-been cats all the time who think they know the game better than the athletes that have played it or coached it at a high level (arm chair quarterbacks). And don't give me that knee injury excuse...never mind, I don't want to rant anymore, you've got your opinions and I have mind.

Now back to the original question...whoever said Bulger, I think that further proves my point about Kirk Warner, because Bulger had similar (no superbowls though because he has less talent) success in that system.

So I'll stick with John Elway as my #1 simply because he did so much with so little. But when it's all said and done, Peyton will destroy all records plus have at least 2 more SuperBowls under his belt.

What does everyone think about Jim Kelly (Buffaloe Bills). Can't deny he was good (4 Superbowl experiences). And he didn't have a whole lot to work with either. Although he did have Thurman Thomas and a great D.

good point about opinions and yes it is assinine because you don't know me to call me a "coulda-been athlete". you can toot your i played in the nfl horn all you wany but i ain't impressed. for all i know you could be a fat ass with cokebottle glasses with a 4 inch vert. i seen no point in you making it personal because i don't agree with your opinion so we will end this bs now.

[BgMc31]

good point about opinions and yes it is assinine because you don't know me to call me a "coulda-been athlete". you can toot your i played in the nfl horn all you wany but i ain't impressed. for all i know you could be a fat ass with cokebottle glasses with a 4 inch vert. i seen no point in you making it personal because i don't agree with your opinion so we will end this bs now.

I have nothin to hide especially not behind some BS excuse (I had a major knee injury). There are AR members that know me and you can always go over to Marunde-Muscle.com and check me out. Clown!

[Brown Ninja]

I made the point about Bulger and I was kidding. Bulger is terrible. Warner is way better and will prove it by winning his 2nd Super Bowl tomorrow!

[BgMc31]

^^^My bad! Bulger did have a couple good years didn't he before the injuries?

[JAYROD]

I have nothin to hide especially not behind some BS excuse (I had a major knee injury). There are AR members that know me and you can always go over to Marunde-Muscle.com and check me out. Clown!

i don't give a f*ck who you are guy. you're all over michael vick's jock in a BEST QB'S OF ALL TIME thread an you're acting like a jerk to me bacause i dissagree. who's hiding? lol. you can see me. well crafted ass clown!

[Brown Ninja]

Who gives a shit. If we were all in the same room I would have everyone of you and probably beat the shit out of all you......not really because I don't care! Lets talk football not puff up. Someone please convince me why Peyton manning is not the best qb to ever play.

[Brown Ninja]

Why is Joe Montana thought to be better than Terry Bradshaw?

[Brown Ninja]

Is it just me or is Big Ben like a modern day Aikman?