String Theory<====

[flexgolf]

Originally posted by symatech
It was Stephen Hawking who first predicted the existance of black holes. Some time in the early 70's an idea was proposed (by Beckenstein i believe) that the event horizon of a black hole (point of no return) could be described in terms of entropy.

Entropy - The second law of thermodynamics states that in any given system, the total amount of entropy will increase. Entropy is basically a measure of messiness. For instance, if I drop an amp to the ground it will shatter spilling the juice inside. The entropy of my amp has increased since it is now broken and once was whole. It is very unlikely that if I drop pieces of glass to the floor they will form an amp. get the idea? good!

Now, since we now are aquainted with superpartners or like hercules said antiparticles, we can further examine Beckensteins bold proposal. Heisenberg's uncertainty principly says that it is impossible to tell the exact location of a particle if you know certain things about it. This has been the bane of quantum mechanics since its birth. Basically it dictates that we will never know everything about quantum mechanics because we cannot predict fully everything we must know about the force charges, mass, spin, location etc. of particles.

Keeping this in mind i'll get back to black holes. Because of the uncertainty principle, there are particles and antiparticles all over the universe. in my backyard, in your amp of sust......even on the outskirts of a black holes event horizon. Now, up until now black holes have been described -and done so very well- with classical general relativity. Their mass, spin, and size is all know, and since black holes are pure general relativity there was never any need to utilize quantum mechanics in describing them. (i promise ill get to the point soon )

At least up until Beckensteins proposal. He said -basically anyways- "what happens if I have a messy desk on the outskirts of a black hole. Then the black hole sucks it in. My desk with its large amount of entropy is now replaced with empty space. So much for thermodynamics? not unless the black hole actually had entropy, and the entropy of the black hole increased"! From this point hawking took over and through ungodly calculations which I will never understand he formed a partial merger between general relativity and quantum mechanics. It was choppy and is full of 'bugs' but for his purpose it would do. Hawking was able to conclude that the area of a black hole would actually increase as it sucked in matter thereby increasing its entropy. In relation, the area of a black hole is related directly to its entropy!

Ok now to bring everything together

Imagine your particles and antiparticles are chillin around the black holes event horizon. before they can annihilate one another, the energy from the black hole sucks in one but the other escapes. The black hole has now increased in size (and entropy) but has 'emitted' a photon! "black holes glow" - stephen hawking.

from an observer a distance away (assuming we could see these particles) it would appear to us that only the 1 is emitted. Since we see nothing after it goes into the hole all we would see is its partner comming out.

now how does all this relate to string theroy? well sorry to leave you all hangin (as im sure you are....lol) but im too tired to post another page on this. so im going to roll a joint, smoke it, drink a beer or two then pass out for the night!

peace
symatech

ps. ill provide closure for this choppy post at a later time

well.....sorry to let ya know but black holes were predicted mathematically welll before the time of stephen hawking. ill find the theorist's name for you shortly.

im kinda dissapointed....no one (i think no one) has made mention of the noodling effect of matter as it approaches the event horizon. im gonna write up a lil summary of this noodling which is basically the best description of the string theory.

[flexgolf]

does anyone have a diagram of the quantum mechanical view of the black hole??

obviosuly this is the picture without the singularity, and an extra shperical shell within the event horizon. i used to have a resource on this topic but i lost my book!!!

[withoutd0ubt]

you can't say the universe is accelerating without saying what it is accelerating from or to

[flexgolf]

Originally posted by withoutd0ubt
you can't say the universe is accelerating without saying what it is accelerating from or to

thats true. im sure some wheelchair genius will think of way of explaining it making a dozen assumptions.

[symatech]

sorry flex i forgot about this thread. I was only just getting into black holes recently which is why the noodling effect was left out. Clearly its an obvious consequence of the tremendous gravitational force. The idea being that -if you went in feet first- your feet would be closer to the singularity so the gravitational pull on them would be greater than your head which would stretch you to the point of a noodle. ill try and get back later to this...i havent been on the board in a long time...

[symatech]

Originally posted by flexgolf
does anyone have a diagram of the quantum mechanical view of the black hole??

Thats the whole point of this thread. There IS NO quantum mechanical diagram of a black hole. String theory has struggled to unite quantum mechanics with general relativity but is not yet perfected. It is true that Hawking formulated a rough working estimate for some of his work on black holes but as of now there is not a diagram like that. maybe one day

[symatech]

Yay back to string theory. Im going to have to dedicate this BUMP to palme. Who reminded me in the wee hours of this..well now its friday morning about this thread. I forget where I left off and im too busy loadin another bowl before work again to scroll back up and read. after I get back in from out of town I'll post some more! yay

[flexgolf]

Thats the whole point of this thread. There IS NO quantum mechanical diagram of a black hole. String theory has struggled to unite quantum mechanics with general relativity but is not yet perfected. It is true that Hawking formulated a rough working estimate for some of his work on black holes but as of now there is not a diagram like that. maybe one day

do u know where i can find a general diagram. where it displays the various layers and points on the black hole. i know it exists, its not QM, but it is a layered diagram

[punk_bbuilder]

Im a Pre-med major so im not even going to start with the whole religion versus science bullshit. I honostly clicked on this post because i thought the string theory had something to do with a chicks tampon string stickin out

[Mentalism]

To everyone who wants to devote their lives and time to understanding the universe:

"Real wisdom is understanding that we know nothing."

[symatech]

To everyone who wants to devote their lives and time to understanding the universe:

"Real wisdom is understanding that we know nothing."

are you saying its a waste of time? I think we all realize how little we actually know, but I don't think that should discourage us from persuing it. I know more about physcis than Newton (in a sense, dont take that too literally) ever did but that doesnt mean that he wasted his life for nothing.

peace

[bermich]

Dohnuts are soft and warm. Mmmmm.
Im not even gonna begin to read this thread. But since I am here.....

[Mentalism]

A waste of time? That's for each man to decide for himself.

To what end or greater purpose are you trying to decypher the universe?

You want to know the big secret of the universe, here it is:

Only two things really exist, they are...

1) Energy
2) Probability

Absolutely nothing exists besides energy and probability (or chaos).

So are we all 'connected' like the therory states? Of course we are, we are all made out of the same stuff.

Good times

[flexgolf]

A waste of time? That's for each man to decide for himself.

To what end or greater purpose are you trying to decypher the universe?

You want to know the big secret of the universe, here it is:

Only two things really exist, they are...

1) Energy
2) Probability

Absolutely nothing exists besides energy and probability (or chaos).

So are we all 'connected' like the therory states? Of course we are, we are all made out of the same stuff.

Good times

the same stuff...yes i agree, it all boils down to the theory we are essentially made of energy. probability i disagree with. probability only exists to us because we are unable to distinctly describe scientific phenomena. the actual universe contains no probability.

[tryingtogetbig]

Holy shit...I just tried to read through a bunch of these posts. At first I was impressed...now I think I am a little scared. I don't think I am mentally worthy of posting on AR anymore. lol

peace,

ttgb

[Mentalism]

Nope. The universe has no "laws" it just is. Science is trying to pin down the system of chaos or probability - but why? We base our therories on probability.

THERORY says everything that goes up must come down. However, it is not true that every time for eternity that everything that goes up will come down. So this is in fact not a law, or 'set in stone' therory, it's just a therory to describe the probability of an event, not the actual outcome. This is true with every therory that exists - think about it.

[lilbull]

I can't believe anyone would even think about creating a black hole, but in all honesty I wouldn't be suprised if they tried to. The scientist who set off the first atomic bomb didn't know whether they would be able to stop the reaction once it started. They dropped a bomb and hoped that it wouldn't kill everyone. That's a scary thought. I don't think we would get so lucky with a black hole.

"Some scientists have been working on ways to condense certain things -i will study on this more to clarify as i have a world of questions myself- into sizes so miniscule I have trouble even believing its possible. Not baseballs or ordinary life sized matter, but definately things with some mass. They have found that theoretically, it would be possible for them to make such a dense object as to CREAT A SMALL BLACK HOLE INSIDE A VACUUM IN A LAB!!!!! Oh my lord. now you understand the questions above eh!?!"- symatech

[symatech]

A waste of time? That's for each man to decide for himself.

To what end or greater purpose are you trying to decypher the universe?

You want to know the big secret of the universe, here it is:

Only two things really exist, they are...

1) Energy
2) Probability

Absolutely nothing exists besides energy and probability (or chaos).

So are we all 'connected' like the therory states? Of course we are, we are all made out of the same stuff.

Good times

ok i see what your sayin now. I am not trying to figure out some 'secret' or universal key that will unlock the mystery of the universe. In fact in one of my first posts (maybe the 1st) I said that I don't think that would ever be possible. I study it because it fascinates me and I like it. Just furthering my knowledge for the sake of a lesson.

[Strut99GT]

Nope. The universe has no "laws" it just is. Science is trying to pin down the system of chaos or probability - but why? We base our therories on probability.

PROBABILITY says everything that goes up must come down.

Don't you mean causality? i.e. cause and effect? That makes a lot more sense than "probability." Probability doesn't assert anything, it's just a way to describe the chances that something will or will not happen.

[symatech]

I have been reading about a very interesting -albeit farfetched imo...- idea which has to do with multiple universes inside our own. Although difficult to picture at first, bear with me a sec and lets see where this goes.

The universe is expanding, this is true. Furthermore, it's expanding so rapidly that we would never be able to travel as fast as its expansion rate. Therefore it is safe to say that OUR universe -that being yours, mine, our neighbors etc.- is finite. In my life There is only so much ground I could cover. Thus meaning my world is limited. Imagine if at my birth I set out in a rocket ship and just traveled my whole life in a relatively 'straight' line away from earth. Imagine the earth as the center and the line of travel I created as a radius. Using that radius calcluate all possible trajectories I would have had leaving earth and you get a sphere with earth at the center resembling my very own universe!!

Now, what is outside that universe is unknown to me. The physical laws maybe different, perhaps there is another copy of me doing the same thing in the next universe over. There is some mathmatics behind this which seems to show it probable but I hold no real inclination to the proposal. Regardless I found it quite interesting. I'll see if I can dig up the article and post some of it because the above explanatin is VERY brief and full of holes.

peace

[Umberto]

Sup Symatech
Cant believe this thread is still expanding
I remeber discussing and posting on it months ago
Absolutely fascinating

the same stuff...yes i agree, it all boils down to the theory we are essentially made of energy. probability i disagree with. probability only exists to us because we are unable to distinctly describe scientific phenomena. the actual universe contains no probability.

Can scientific phenomena describe the free will of man to make choices in a physical and mental way.
Can scietific phenomena describe mental thought and self described sensory perception.

[MMC78]

Symantec:
Probablity exists in the very fabric of the universe because of quantum processes. Heisenberg: (Dq Dp) > hbar. We can't precisely predict the position and momemtum of a particle at an instant. For example, we can say with certain probability P that this particicle will do X, and with probability 1-P the particle will do Y. This is NOT a human limitation, rather it has to do with the properties of light. This relates to the many worlds theory alluded to in your post.

The Many Worlds theory states that any time the particle has a "choice" of doing one thing vs another, the universe splits; one for each possible outcome. The splitting continues at every event like this and forms a tree structure. We only exist in one universe at a time. I think that the main appeal of this theory is that it neatly explains quantum state collapse -- basically at the instant you observe a particle that could be in many different states, it collapses into a single state.

[lilbull]

I just love this thread!