String Theory<====

[tolinka]

yea i like this thread....bump it up

[Terinox]

Well all that stuff gets me thinking of (i believe it was) Leibniz, who stated that ALL things are actually comprosed of "monads"

We can't see these little things, and they are according to him controlled by God to a certain degree. But it is because of these "monads" that everything is the way it is. It's like a perception, and there are different kinds of monads, etc.. etc... Very weird confusing philosophical crap.

[symatech]

well guys/girls i havent posted on this thread in a while and i apologize. Ill try to throw something decent together later on but for now, heres some more special relativity which i love

It was special relativity which first sparked my interest in Physics. i remember back in high school when I learned that two different observers can claim to see different forces acting on the same object, and they were both right! This is what is largely responsible for my 'thinking outside the box' philosophy.. (though i probably had some help from lsd... ) ahh, i digress...sorry

Imagine that you have a wire running an electrical current. The changing current, in turn produces a magnetic field around the wire. Now imagine you have two electrons (they will be our observers) one on either side of the wire; 1 in motion, the other stationary (with respect to the wire). The electron in motion will be repelled from the wire by the magnetic force, while the stationary electron will be repelled by the electric force. What tickled my brain was that the electric force and the magnetic force were found to be different aspects of the same force!

As you all may know, the 4 forces which govern the physical laws of our observable universe are the STRONG FORCE, WEAK FORCE, GRAVITY, and ELECTROMAGNETIC FORCE. The weak, strong, and electromagnetic forces are all described beautifully in the quantum world. Gravity, the sole exception, remains un-tammed...for now. It will be a momentus day in physics if gravity is understood on its quantum level. Hopefully this will lead to a unification of the 4 forces as 1 (much as the magnetic and electric forces were united). This could be done through DUALITY. The same duality which united the 5 string theories under M-Theory.

i know this is kind of a choppy post but im stoned and wanted to add something before i got off to bed.

peace
symatech

[tolinka]

no wonder i couldnt figure out what the fuck you were talking about, I need to be stoned to understand you man

[symatech]

Originally posted by tolinka
I need to be stoned to understand you man

i thought you knew that already

haha
peace

[tolinka]

You have to put a warning on the top of the post..."Dont waist your time reading it, unless you are as baked as i am"...

[symatech]

Originally posted by tolinka


You have to put a warning on the top of the post..."Dont waist your time reading it, unless you are as baked as i am"...

if only i was a mod

[tolinka]

Damn those mods and their superiority

[maximized]

HAHAHAHAHA!! This is awsome. I am picturing all these giant 240lbs, 10%bf lifters sitting around a bunsen burner in a science lab (making juice of course) and having conversations about string theory, quantum physics, and the occasional "you see that bangin girl in 2nd period?"..haha. I have a good book though seriously if you want to read about it. best ive found. its called something like "the ...... Universe". Ill post what it is after i get home.

max

[tolinka]

Originally posted by maximized
HAHAHAHAHA!! This is awsome. I am picturing all these giant 240lbs, 10%bf lifters sitting around a bunsen burner in a science lab (making juice of course) and having conversations about string theory, quantum physics, and the occasional "you see that bangin girl in 2nd period?"..haha. I have a good book though seriously if you want to read about it. best ive found. its called something like "the ...... Universe". Ill post what it is after i get home.

max

Well i aint no bodybulder at 240lbs and8% bf...

But this is hilarious man

[symatech]

Its called the elegant universe, by Brian Grene. Its one of the best books ive ever read. Along with The electric Kool-Aid Acid Test.

[maximized]

Yep thats it, the elegant universe. very good. and im not 240 at 8% either. im just dreamin.

The electric kool-aid acid test...haha, ill have to check into that.

[symatech]

seriously its one of the most badass books ive ever read. all about Ken Kesey and his crew which were (for the most part anyways) responsible for the big Acid wave which struck in the 60s.

anyway, i digress from physics. i gotta go to class in like 10seconds but ill post some good shit later.

deuce

[tolinka]

damn, i got to get one of this books...Does any one like Timothy Leary stuff?

[Big Rush]

I can't believe that Nathan hasn't replied to this thread...he's all about some trippy shit

[symatech]

Originally posted by Big Rush
I can't believe that Nathan hasn't replied to this thread...he's all about some trippy shit

I shoulda put some shit about goat porn in the title, then he'd be right over.

peace

ps.sorry for the dis nathan, i know you dont know me but i couldnt resist. no hard feelins?

[samoth]

Originally posted by symatech
I am told by a professor however, that a larger accelerator is being built (in switzerland maybe??) that is supposed to be able to come close. When its slated to be completed somewhere in the near future, it will be a great (or disasterous) day for string theorists all over the world!

Can you exaggerate here please? I don't think I've heard about this one...

[symatech]

Originally posted by samoth


Can you exaggerate here please? I don't think I've heard about this one...

sure thing bro.

It is called the 'Large Hadron Collider' it is being constructed in Geneva, Switzerland. The idea is that it will be powerfull enough to detect superpartner particles. I cant remember if i mentioned them earlier, but they are what is resposible for supersymmetry. Supersymmetry is one of the foundations of string theory. It is what eliminates much of the quantum undulations which occur at sub plank length scales all over the universe. These undulations are pretty much impossible to describe mathematically which is why supersymmetry works so well. Supersymmetry works mathematically but has not yet been experimentally proven. this is where the accelerator comes into play. The completion date is set sometime on or around 2010.

[samoth]

Ok, I've heard of the LHC, but what is is specifically detecting? I am not familiar with "superpartner particles". Are you saying there is a somewhat working theory of quantum gravity? I was not aware we could predict what happens at the Planck length? What are the implications for cosmology and the early seconds of the universe then?
I'm assuming the LHC is being built at/near CERN?

[samoth]

By the way, there is a similar discussion about SS and TOE at www.physicsforums.com under the modern physics board, for anyone interested. Good board with quite a few people, check it out if you're into this stuff.

[symatech]

Originally posted by samoth
Ok, I've heard of the LHC, but what is is specifically detecting? I am not familiar with "superpartner particles". Are you saying there is a somewhat working theory of quantum gravity? I was not aware we could predict what happens at the Planck length? What are the implications for cosmology and the early seconds of the universe then?
I'm assuming the LHC is being built at/near CERN?

Well, part of string theory (well actually M theory) is the hypothesized theory for quantum gravity. Much of the theory has been proven but not the entire thing. Therefore it is not yet correct to say that we have a working theorem for gravity on a quantum scale. As an obvious result we are still uncertain of predictions made at the planck length.

Utilizing string theory, physicists have constructed ideals of what may have happened in the plank time (10^-43s) after the bang. Part of what they have seen thus far is that the electromagnetic, strong and weak forces, at a certain temperature after the bang all appeared as 1 force. After the universe cooled off substantially a process known as symmetry breaking occured. THe three forces were seen to separate and form their own 'branch.' Theorists are hoping that with string theory, they can proove that at or before the plank time all 4 forces would actually appear as 1. Then at or around the planck time gravity split from the other forces, and then finally they all split into the 4 separate forces we witness today.

I would also have to assume that the LHC is being built at/near CERN. This would only seem logical but I am not 100% sure so dont quote me on that

peace
symatech

[BIG-G]

YO, U KNOW THE RULES; PUFF PUFF GIVE! Sit back smoke a phatty, and eat some munchies and stop tryin to think, cause ur scramblin my marbles from me tryin to read all this crap.

[roch]

Originally posted by Terinox
Well all that stuff gets me thinking of (i believe it was) Leibniz, who stated that ALL things are actually comprosed of "monads"

We can't see these little things, and they are according to him controlled by God to a certain degree. But it is because of these "monads" that everything is the way it is. It's like a perception, and there are different kinds of monads, etc.. etc... Very weird confusing philosophical crap.

I saw this movie! but they weren't called "monads" they were called midiclorians, and this little green dude named yodel or something like that had the most....

sorry terinox, couldn't resist. wouldn't mind getting the mind expanding jeebee to understand it all either. way over the old head here.

[symatech]

Alrighty, I realize there has been a hiatus in this thread; due to a recent IM from Hercules88 I have decided to pick it up again.

Superpartners:

One of the most elegant applications of String Theory is it's use of superpartner particles. These are responsible for the 'smoothing' of quantum undulations which are too complex to ever be described mathematically. As such they have troubled physicists for years when trying to understand the Universe on a quantum level.

Now, the idea behind superpartner particles is rather simple. They have the same characteristics of particles we witness today, but have opposite spin and charge and are much more massive. When the superpartners meet in the quantum world they completely annihilate each other. When this is utilized in the theoretical calculations they are found to completely ignore or smooth out these undulatinons which have plagued physicists for years.

The problem:

The know particles are the following:

Particle --------------- Mass (multiples of proton mass)
-------------------------------------------------------------

Electron ---------------- .00054
electron-neutrino ------- < 10^-8
Up-quark --------------- .0047
Down quark ------------ .0074

-------------------------------------------------------------

Muon --------------------- .11
Muon-neutrino ------------- < .0003
Charm Quark --------------- 1.6
Strange Quark -------------- .16

-------------------------------------------------------------

Tau ---------------------- 1.9
Tau-neutrino -------------- < .033
Top quark ---------------- 189
Bottom Quark ------------ 5.2



Now where am i going with this? Ill tell you!

It was first discovered that none of the particles listed above could ever be superpartners to the other. Now, as you can see there are some very massive particles. If the theory of their antiparticles is true, then why havent we detected them? Well the theory is that some of these parners may be up to 1000X heavier than a proton, and unfortunately our state of the art accelerators cannot probe so deeply as of yet.

This is why the LHC being built in Geneva is so anticipated. Once its built it will be able -hopefully- to detect these partners and if it does it will be groundbreaking evidence in favor of String Theory!!!

peace
symatech

[monstercojones]

great discussion.... there has to be a mystic (spiritual) force behind the creation of the universe. a leap of faith is the only possible conclusion one can reach using logic and reason, even for scientists that claim to be atheists. just think back as far as you can think, according to most scientists, the universe started from a ball of extremely dense matter that apparantly came from no where. there had to be SOMETHING that came from NOTHING at one point, and that something in my mind is a sort of God-type being that requires that leap of faith to believe in. I dont subscribe to any organized religions because they seem more like social control and economic institutions to me, but I do firmly believe that there is some higher power from which everything must have come.


does anyone follow that? if so, what do you think?

[symatech]

Originally posted by monstercojones
great discussion.... there has to be a mystic (spiritual) force behind the creation of the universe. a leap of faith is the only possible conclusion one can reach using logic and reason, even for scientists that claim to be atheists. just think back as far as you can think, according to most scientists, the universe started from a ball of extremely dense matter that apparantly came from no where. there had to be SOMETHING that came from NOTHING at one point, and that something in my mind is a sort of God-type being that requires that leap of faith to believe in. I dont subscribe to any organized religions because they seem more like social control and economic institutions to me, but I do firmly believe that there is some higher power from which everything must have come.


does anyone follow that? if so, what do you think?

bro your singin my song. This is exactly what i believe. Some people argue that the Big Bang was the beginning. Well, like you said and as has been a fundamental theorem of physics 'metter cannot be created or destroyed' so where did it come from? some believe that the big bang is actually the other side of a 'big crunch' in another universe. The idea is that the universe expands only so far until it collapses under its owen gravitational attraction. The result is the exact opposite of the big bang.

Ok, well I have no problem with that notion. However, where did the matter in the previous universe come from? You can trace this back all the way to the beginning and something/someone/or some force had to create it. I do not believe in God in the typical religious sense. I do believe there is something greater than all of us and that is responsible for the beginning. I dont really go to church anymore because I felt that the way religion was being presented was too -for lack of a better word- hokey. Now i dont mean to offend anybody and I dont really want this to be a religious discussion so ill stop there. It is my opinion and nothing more

peace

ps. good to see the thread goin again

[tolinka]

When I was alot younger, I remember walking on the streets and looking at the sky. Coming from an aethiest family, I didnt believe in god, so I was just looking at the sky and thought where all this came from. What really gave me a rush and still does sometime, when I imagine that there was no earth and starts around it, if there was no universe, there would still has to be something evern, even if we take the stars and the planets, we still going to have that dark blue color, but its going to be empty, but the color is still there, i thought how could "nohing" be there, is it even possble. Even now I still think about it.

I never believed in god, no matter how I wanted to, but I always had a strong spiritual side(I can tell Symatech nad cojones do to), so I always believed in something mutual, something that we: people, animals, flowers, water, wind...ect share. Everything has its balance, one cause the other to do something, they keep it all balanced, one couldnt do without the other.

[956Vette]

great thread, my head has been spinning ever since i read Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time! I wish i was smart!

[symatech]

Well I would say that it is a theoretical possiblility that the big crunch comes from another universe. It is equally possible, however, that it is just an oscillation of our own universe. As for myself I find the big rip approach much more appealing. All of these 'deaths' are meerly speculation though. Doppler shift tells us that the universe is still expanding; therefore none of us will be alive to find out but thats part of the fun!

[symatech]

Ok, lets suppose that you are a scientist who has uncovered a remarkable ability to do the unthinkable. Let's say for instance that you have mastered a working formula for cold fusion that we can readily put to use with our current technology. do you let the secret out? do you sell it and become the richest person in history? what limits would you place on yourself and your work? Do you think that if it is scientifically possible it should be -or rather has a right- to be done?

Why do I ask these questions? Think about your answers before you read below.



Alrighty guys, if your brain isnt scrambled yet it will be soon. A black hole could result from an object with a gargantuan mass, and a relatively small area. According to Einsteins theory of general relativity (a sequel to special relativity which incorporated gravity/acceleration...more to come later ) shows clearly that any object can become a black hole, if it is condensed enough. So lets say you have a baseball. If you could condense this baseball beyond the limits of molecular bonding into such a samll area (with the same mass) the baseball would create a singularity in space and time. (btw a singularity is a point in space where the curvature of the spatial fabric becomes infinie...in essence a black hole). Obviously your baseball would be obliterated before reaching such a small size; I just wanted to plant the notion in your heads.

Some scientists have been working on ways to condense certain things -i will study on this more to clarify as i have a world of questions myself- into sizes so miniscule I have trouble even believing its possible. Not baseballs or ordinary life sized matter, but definately things with some mass. They have found that theoretically, it would be possible for them to make such a dense object as to CREAT A SMALL BLACK HOLE INSIDE A VACUUM IN A LAB!!!!! Oh my lord. now you understand the questions above eh!?!

Undoubtedly this would answer nearly all of our theories and questions pertaining to black holes....or would it. You see in theory they believe that the black hole would be so small that they could only sustain it for brief moments of time....in theory. Plenty of theories have been disproven in MY lifetime let alone acclaimed scientists. Another theory; and one that MUST be honored, is that the would not have to sustain it. This ever so small black hole could begin eating up all the matter in the vaccuum (as our labratory vaccuums arent complete vaccuums) and actually grow in size. Then its possible this black hole would consume the lab, the city, the state....the earth, the plantets, and who knows how large it could get.

Basically, scientists are very close (well, years away but within my lifetime) to actually having the ability to do this. Do you think they should?

If I may quote Jurassic Park "John, your scientists were so caught up in whether or not they could, they didnt stop to think if they should."

it would be the end of mankind. or it would be a monumental day in physics. who is to decide matters of this magnitude.

Well Im going to stop now, when I post again Ill talk some about general relativity and how black holes can actually loose mass. thats right...'black holes aint so black' - stephen hawking

peace
symatech

[symatech]

Originally posted by tolinka
damn, i got to get one of this books...Does any one like Timothy Leary stuff?

yeah Leary is alright. He just saw WAAAAY too much in LSD that was never there. Leary took it farther than anybody SHOULD have. Like Hunter S. Thompson said 'He crashed around america selling conscienciousness expansion without giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for those people who took him seriously. All those pathetically eager acid freaks who actually thought they could buy peace and understanding...for 3 bucks a hit."

he goes on to say (if my memory serves me...which sometimes it does not ) "but their loss and failure is ours too. what leary took down with him was the central illusion of a lifestyle he helped create. And what resulted was a generation of permanent cripples,,,failed seekers.'


peace

ps. i got nothing against leary, ive read about him. He definately had some wild fuckin ideas. i mean like week long acid trips...insanity...

[tolinka]

Originally posted by symatech


yeah Leary is alright. He just saw WAAAAY too much in LSD that was never there. Leary took it farther than anybody SHOULD have. Like Hunter S. Thompson said 'He crashed around america selling conscienciousness expansion without giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for those people who took him seriously. All those pathetically eager acid freaks who actually thought they could buy peace and understanding...for 3 bucks a hit."

he goes on to say (if my memory serves me...which sometimes it does not ) "but their loss and failure is ours too. what leary took down with him was the central illusion of a lifestyle he helped create. And what resulted was a generation of permanent cripples,,,failed seekers.'


peace

ps. i got nothing against leary, ive read about him. He definately had some wild fuckin ideas. i mean like week long acid trips...insanity...

Damn bro, posted it like two months ago, thanks it only shows how much attention you pay to me...anyways, I never said that I aboslutely agree with leary or he has anything to do with this thread, but some of his stuff is just really strange that could make you look at something from a diffrent perspective.

Well about your "Black Hole", I have not much to say, since I'm an idion and I dont have any knowledge whatsoever about physics, all I can do I just bring up some ideas from my own twisted point of view.

[monstercojones]

herecules is right. god is dead, because god never existed. tthere was a god like being at some point, but not like we bview him. we cann ot even comprehend.

[BIG-G]

symatech, you are one smart son of a bitch. This thread is awesome and even though i lack the wording to add my .02 cents in, it definately got my attention and by far an exelent thread when read out in full!! Most of the stuff makes sense to me stoned or sober but i think there are some things in life that r just ment to be left alone and not understood by science or any theory. Al Pacino said that LOVE can be described as the feeling of eating large quanities of chocolate (given a choc lover). BUT true love to one man or woman leaves him/her speechless and that is where we simply stop and enjoy the time given to us here on earth !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BIG-G

[symatech]

It was Stephen Hawking who first predicted the existance of black holes. Some time in the early 70's an idea was proposed (by Beckenstein i believe) that the event horizon of a black hole (point of no return) could be described in terms of entropy.

Entropy - The second law of thermodynamics states that in any given system, the total amount of entropy will increase. Entropy is basically a measure of messiness. For instance, if I drop an amp to the ground it will shatter spilling the juice inside. The entropy of my amp has increased since it is now broken and once was whole. It is very unlikely that if I drop pieces of glass to the floor they will form an amp. get the idea? good!

Now, since we now are aquainted with superpartners or like hercules said antiparticles, we can further examine Beckensteins bold proposal. Heisenberg's uncertainty principly says that it is impossible to tell the exact location of a particle if you know certain things about it. This has been the bane of quantum mechanics since its birth. Basically it dictates that we will never know everything about quantum mechanics because we cannot predict fully everything we must know about the force charges, mass, spin, location etc. of particles.

Keeping this in mind i'll get back to black holes. Because of the uncertainty principle, there are particles and antiparticles all over the universe. in my backyard, in your amp of sust......even on the outskirts of a black holes event horizon. Now, up until now black holes have been described -and done so very well- with classical general relativity. Their mass, spin, and size is all know, and since black holes are pure general relativity there was never any need to utilize quantum mechanics in describing them. (i promise ill get to the point soon )

At least up until Beckensteins proposal. He said -basically anyways- "what happens if I have a messy desk on the outskirts of a black hole. Then the black hole sucks it in. My desk with its large amount of entropy is now replaced with empty space. So much for thermodynamics? not unless the black hole actually had entropy, and the entropy of the black hole increased"! From this point hawking took over and through ungodly calculations which I will never understand he formed a partial merger between general relativity and quantum mechanics. It was choppy and is full of 'bugs' but for his purpose it would do. Hawking was able to conclude that the area of a black hole would actually increase as it sucked in matter thereby increasing its entropy. In relation, the area of a black hole is related directly to its entropy!

Ok now to bring everything together

Imagine your particles and antiparticles are chillin around the black holes event horizon. before they can annihilate one another, the energy from the black hole sucks in one but the other escapes. The black hole has now increased in size (and entropy) but has 'emitted' a photon! "black holes glow" - stephen hawking.

from an observer a distance away (assuming we could see these particles) it would appear to us that only the 1 is emitted. Since we see nothing after it goes into the hole all we would see is its partner comming out.

now how does all this relate to string theroy? well sorry to leave you all hangin (as im sure you are....lol) but im too tired to post another page on this. so im going to roll a joint, smoke it, drink a beer or two then pass out for the night!

peace
symatech

ps. ill provide closure for this choppy post at a later time

[monstercojones]

i need closure!

[symatech]

haha ill bet your on the seat of your chair right now, sweating, twitching, contemplating!! MUAHAHAHHA anywho im out now....woulda left sooner but got caught up reading one of nathans threads about robots and lasers or some shit like that

[tolinka]

I will have to read this later, becasue I still; cant figure out Systems and Inequalities.,..fuck

[Kärnfysikern]

Damn I love physics it is SO fascinating!!! Im loking forward to my 4 years on university studying physics. But I guess the first 2 years or so will suck donkeys ass

To throw in 2 more fascinating theorys in this. What do you think about the fact that the universe is ACCELERATING not decelerating?
http://www.regenerating-universe.org/main.html
And what do you think about dark energy and dark matter
http://www.physics.hku.hk/~tboyce/sf...wormhole.html?

[Kärnfysikern]

Originally posted by symatech
Undoubtedly this would answer nearly all of our theories and questions pertaining to black holes....or would it. You see in theory they believe that the black hole would be so small that they could only sustain it for brief moments of time....in theory. Plenty of theories have been disproven in MY lifetime let alone acclaimed scientists. Another theory; and one that MUST be honored, is that the would not have to sustain it. This ever so small black hole could begin eating up all the matter in the vaccuum (as our labratory vaccuums arent complete vaccuums) and actually grow in size. Then its possible this black hole would consume the lab, the city, the state....the earth, the plantets, and who knows how large it could get.

Basically, scientists are very close (well, years away but within my lifetime) to actually having the ability to do this. Do you think they should?

God damn that is some scary shit. But I dont think any researcher ever would be allowed to do such a thing. Atleast I would hope they wait until they can do it FAR FAR from earth. The posibilitys in having a pet black hole is almost tempting enough to allow for its creation, in the future when we can do it outside of our solar system. But in a lab on earth HELL NO!!!
But I can understand that its very tempting for the physicists to start working on such a project...