09-09-2004, 10:06 AM #1
Not enough spectacles around here.....
No flames intended here, but.....
Why is it that every thread I open has 'test' recommendations when the original poster is'nt asking about test....? Example:
Person A: Can you critique my Deca /or EQ cycle.
Person B: You HAVE to use test buddy.
Person A: I'm not asking about test.
Person C: I agree with person B.
If a person is asking a QUESTION that has nothing to do with test - answer it! Don't hi-jack the thread and recommend test **** IT!
Just my 0.02cents,
09-09-2004, 10:08 AM #2
This is because all cycle should have test in them. This is why we answer the question that way.
09-09-2004, 10:08 AM #3
Typically they are newbs asking cycle questions. If you don't like it don't read the threads. They need direction.
09-09-2004, 10:13 AM #4
09-09-2004, 10:19 AM #5
I agree with you completely and have been stating this openly on the board for a long time, however, I have stopped bothering a while back because my replies get lost in a sea of 'test is best', 'no cycle is complete without test', 'test should be the base for every cycle'.
Originally Posted by Rusty_Needles
09-09-2004, 10:20 AM #6
If his goals are to be shut down and have all sorts of problems (low sex drive, mood swings..........) associated with it then yeah test isn't needed.
Otherwise test is needed...........
If my goals were to cut while dieting the only drug I would run without test is Anavar .............
09-09-2004, 10:22 AM #7Originally Posted by 1victor
09-09-2004, 10:23 AM #8
Pls give me one reason why test should not be included in every cycle and I'll never ever parrot "test is best" again in another post. Deal?
09-09-2004, 10:26 AM #9Originally Posted by TheMudMan
09-09-2004, 10:29 AM #10Originally Posted by usualsuspect
09-09-2004, 10:33 AM #11
Dogs is that child comment directed towards me?
09-09-2004, 10:36 AM #12
What about an athlete who needs to increase strength and endurance and whose bodyweight is limited by desire to remain in a given weight class so this person cannot afford to gain more than a certain amount of weight. Also, the have no use for weight gain that is water retention and wish to minimize the risk of gyno as much as possible. Saying that something should be done in every case is a dangerous game. Should test be included in every woman's cycle as well? Under your definition it appears this way. (although I know you don't think it should, I'm just using it to illustrate a point)
Originally Posted by usualsuspect
Originally Posted by TheMudMan
09-09-2004, 10:37 AM #13
I read this on another board.....
Reconsidering Test only
While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.
Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.
Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.
Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.
You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.
Deca , Equipoise , Anavar , and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.
While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.
To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.
Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood
Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.
Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.
Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.
These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:
Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days
Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.
GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.
Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.
Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS, the decision is up to you.
In a nut shelling im sayin that test only could have a negative affect on joint and tendon health...
09-09-2004, 10:42 AM #14
I think what we have here is failure to communicate. Most of these guys are new to AS . It makes sense to start with test since it is the closest thing to "natty" IMO. From there you switch around and educate yourself on what works best for you.
Chica I agree that what works for you may suck for me that's why test may not be the best but it's good for ground zero for a newb.
09-09-2004, 10:44 AM #15Originally Posted by Rusty_Needles
09-09-2004, 10:52 AM #16
I agree with you that single (base) compound cycles are the way to start so the person gets a feel for the game and test is a good way to start for most. My problem is more the way that the 'test is best' gets pushed on the net (it's not unique to AR) just becasue I think too many people say it when they haven't tried any AS, haven't tried without test, etc. For me, test was what I stareted with and I have decided that it is not something I prefer to use at all for the time being.
Originally Posted by 1victor
09-09-2004, 10:56 AM #17
Agreed it is one of THE MOST PARROTED phrases out there.
09-09-2004, 11:20 AM #18
Because most people don't actually know what they're talking about. If you cruise other boards, you see many people having run cycles of other compounds constructively and effectively. Here, it's frowned upon if you aren't stacking with test. Some, like I, can't run test at all without aromatization problems, and some people can't grasp that here. The bottom line is there are many other anabolic steroids that won't shut you down hard while packing on mass, and they can be run, as chico said, without test.
09-09-2004, 11:59 AM #19
Hi, I'm Joe N00b
I have cystic acne, male pattern baldness, a little bit of gyno, and a prostate the size of a grapefruit. I was thinking of running a mild anabolic like primobolan or anavar for 8 weeks.
WAT? UR AN IDIOT U NEED TEST WIT THAT!!! NO TEST NO CYCLE!
It's getting old. I'd like to see people's ideas/experiences for newbie cycles not involving test.
09-09-2004, 10:02 PM #20Associate Member
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09-09-2004, 10:44 PM #21
I dont really parrot that way of thinking..
I have been on this board and many others like it for a long time ..Unfortunatly I found the internet sites about 2 newbie wassted cycles later . Although I did make great gains on them I was afflicted with sides , shutdowns and losses of gains afterwards.
When I started reading cycles posted by people who had more knowledge of these drugs Irealized I wasnt doing things right.. I think that the Vets of these cycles are basing there recommedations on trail and error basis. I have tried deca only and dbol only cycles and believe me, When I added test and pct to my cyles (and proper diet )
the results and gains were uncompararble to the pre info cyles..
so no test cycle
been there done that
wont do it again
09-09-2004, 11:00 PM #22
So its wrong to try to straighten someone out when some buddy of his is trying to sell him a bottle of Deca ?? Alot of the times when these guys are asking about how to cycle their single bottle of Deca. If all you are taking is one steroid why would you have to ask someone else how to take it???
Anyone that knows how this stuff works knows that you dont have to use testosterone in your cycle. But you do have to take androgens!!! So its wrong to tell a newbie that Testosterone is a well balanced drug for a base of a cycle. But its OK to advocate the use of heavy androgens during the entire duration of a newbies cycle???
I agree that everyone has different goals. And the results I get from a Deca only, Equipoise /winstrol ,Primobolan only, Anavar only, Primobolan/Anavar cant acheive my goals. If the point isnt to increase athletic performance or appearance, than whats the point??
Heres a little logic why testosterone is a good base drug.
This is taken from an article called the sane cycle by BiG Cat at superior muscle archive.
In defense of testosterone
Apart from being the most effective steroid, it’s also the sanest choice with regards to health. It makes sense that by administering the exogenous variant of our prime androgen, we will not allow anything in the body that would normally occur to fall into disuse, nor allow anything that would normally not happen to occur. Because a lot of studies and conclusions are based on findings with testosterone, we can only safely make these assumptions about testosterone. That is why we not only use it, it will be the base for our cycle. And it should be for any health-conscious cycle.
Testosterone is the most effective steroid commercially available today. This observed in the real world, since even with the necessary bulk, testosterone increases lean body mass more than any other steroid we have access to. More than the stronger androgens, and more than the stronger estrogens. That is because testosterone has a very diverse mode of action. Testosterone is the most present androgen in the body. Its also the most important endogenous androgen in muscle tissue. But everywhere else in the body, that role is put aside for Dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Now DHT is a reduced version of testosterone with a saturated A-ring (steroids are lipophillic, 19-carbon, 4-ring structures made from cholesterol). These other tissues are rich in an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductase. When testosterone binds to this enzyme, its 4,5-double bond is broken and two hydrogen atoms (hence dihydro) attached to the spaces that are freed on the A-ring. DHT is a much more potent androgen, roughly three times the affinity of testosterone for the androgen receptor.
Many people regard DHT as the enemy, because among these androgen-specific tissues are the scalp (aggravating a genetic tendency to hair loss) and the skin (causing outbreaks of acne). But in fact DHT is more than that to us. Since it is the prime androgen in nerve tissue, it will be imperative to have ample DHT levels for optimal neuromuscular response. This is why many people taking the 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor finasteride (Proscar) find that their strength does not increase, or even decreases. Secondly we tend to forget that DHT is a potent anti-aromatase. The aromatase enzyme is the enzyme that converts testosterone to the estrogen estradiol (E2). As we will discuss next, E2 certainly has its benefits as well, but too high a concentration will result in excess adipose storage and more water retention (bloat). Certainly we don’t need this if it can be avoided. Since this is a long term plan, we are in no way planning to walk around like the “stay puffed marshmallow man”. By blocking the 5-alpha reductase we have a shift towards aromatization of testosterone, because there is more testosterone available (not converted to DHT) and there are more aromatase enzymes (not taken up by DHT). This could in turn lead to problems with feminization and gynocomastia (breast growth in men). So as you can see, DHT is quite important in this equation.
A more important issue is perhaps the prostate. Prostate cancer is a disease of modern society. And steroid use has been known to cause or aggravate Benign prostate hypertrophy, a growth stage of the prostate gland in middle-aged men. Because the prostate is androgen specific, DHT is often named as the culprit. But the latest research determines that estrogen is in fact the causative factor, although a level of androgenic action is required. Androgens have actually been proferred as a therapeutic means to treat BPH.
As we mentioned already, testosterone is a substrate for the aromatase enzyme and converts to E2. A female hormone. Here too demonisation has made E2 the enemy. And yet again we are overlooking several factors. First of all, bloat, fat gain and gyno occur only at very high concentrations of E2, something we should be able to avoid if we are sane with our doses. And if not, we have numerous anti-aromatase drugs at our disposal, of which I favour Mesterolone (Proviron ) as it is a DHT analogue, will increase free testosterone and does not block E2 entirely in low doses, so we still reap the benefits. So what are the benefits of E2 ? Well, estrogen enhances gluconeogenesis (use of glucose for tissue repair and energy storage) (2) , increases the release of human Growth Hormone (3) and can increase androgen receptor upregulation (E2 makes testosterone more effective as an androgen) (4).
Lastly we consider actions not mediated by either the androgen or the estrogen receptor. This could in large part explain why testosterone is still the greatest steroid available, despite there being more potent androgens and more estrogen mediated drugs. A combination of trenbolone , a much stronger androgen, and oxymetholone (which has direct estrogenic action, without requiring aromatisation) only yields roughly the same amount of mass as equipotent or even lesser doses of testosterone. Why ? Well this brings us back to the point I raised about using a base that is equal to the endogenous alternative. Because certain processes may not be activated by these bastard hormones. One study (5) showed that testosterone had more effect in ductal branching in prostate tissue than did DHT, which would indicate a non-AR mechanism, since DHT is more potent at the AR, especially in the prostate. Could it be the estrogen factor ? No, because the DHT prohormone 3-alpha (5-alpha-androstan-3a,17b-diol) had the same effect as testosterone, and 3-alpha does not aromatize. So there is another mechanism in play here, which certainly supports the thesis that there is more to testosterone than merely agonism of estrogen and androgen receptors. Another study demonstrated that testosterone may upgrade beta-adrenoreceptors in vivo, through a non-AR mediated mechanism (again testosterone outperformed DHT in this area), and since administration of estrogen receptor antagonists showed no significant changes, we can also state it was not ER-mediated. The relevance of this in regards to muscular hypertrophy may be a lot greater. This did in large part determine the diet I planned with this cycle and the use of beta-adrenergic agents. So testosterone has proven beneficial in three separate fashions, and easily allows a defense of its selection.
But safety played a factor in my decision as well. Many theories about the evils of steroids were debunked these past few years, and most of the studies that disproved this long-standing anti-steroid propaganda, used testosterone as a substrate. So the only safe conclusion as far as these studies go is that TESTOSTERONE, and not steroids in general, is safe and beneficial. That is not to say the others are not as safe, but there is no proof that gives us any certainty that they are. One of the main reasons against the use of steroids has been cardiovascular risk. Several studies have looked at this closely, and not only did they determine that testosterone did not pose a heart risk (6) , they also concluded that low testosterone levels induce cardio-vascular risk (7), whereas supraphysiological administration seemed to decrease the risk (8) (decreases in total cholesterol, HDL and LDL, LDL/HDL ratio and apoplipoprotein B, a marker for cardiovascular risk). In conclusion it is safe to state that testosterone is actually good for your ticker, and as normal levels of testosterone decrease with age, a good case is to be made for Hormonal Replacement therapy in the interest of cardiovascular health. Lastly testosterone was also shown to increase mental health (9), as it increased cognitive performances in older men. So testosterone cannot only promote more lean mass than any other steroid, it can also make you live longer by decreasing heart risk, and get better quality out of your remaining years by enhancing cognitive performance and fighting dementia.
Hence my case for using testosterone as a base of our safe cycle.
09-09-2004, 11:28 PM #23
I will not use test I can achieve my goals 100% without it. Test is garbage IMO.
If you can achieve your goals without a heavy androgen or without a compound that doesn't aromatize to any degree then dont' use test. I like my hairline, no gyno, no excess body hair, no bloat, no acne, no massive HTPA shutdown, etc...
I like EQ as a base. And I don't have any problems with my dick when I don't use test. And I don't care to be a walking hard-on either My sex drive is more than adequate.
To simply say "test should be the base of every cycle" is irresponsible. You need to look at the individual goals of the user before making a recommendation. The user may not feel the sides are worth the gains for their situation.
Having said that I do believe that it works well for some users and I respect their desire to use it.
09-09-2004, 11:45 PM #24
If I got Gyno,hair loss, prostate problems I wouldnt even bother using steroids at all. Too many risks if you are that kind of person.
I just had a guy Pm me asking what would be a good cycle for a pitcher. I cant tell him I have no idea how to cycle for that. Im not gonna act like I do!! If anyone on here knows the ways about that one let me know and ill send you his way.
My goal is to get as big as I can and stay that way. What ever it takes, I dont even understand the guy that says he wants to just cut up for his first cycle when he weighs about 170lbs. That dont matter though, I dont look down on them. I just dont understand their goals. But at the same time they think im crazy as well.
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