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  1. #1
    Stout1's Avatar
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    Arrow Why you need to stack drugs correctly!!

    Author Animal Mass.

    While injecting test increases protein syntesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

    Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

    Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen syn while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

    Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

    You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

    Deca , Equipoise , Anavar , and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

    While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

    To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

    Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

    Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

    Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

    Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

    These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

    Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

    Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

    GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

    Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

    Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you
    Last edited by Stout1; 12-26-2004 at 05:28 PM.

  2. #2
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    This post (it's by "Animal Mass") has been refuted many times here...

  3. #3
    KGBnine is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    This post (it's by "Animal Mass") has been refuted many times here...
    Yeah it makes you wonder where the author gets his info from as I cannot see any citations.

  4. #4
    BigJames's Avatar
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    So...is that stuff true? I have heard that Test should be the base and Eq and such should be added to it...

  5. #5
    KGBnine is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJames
    So...is that stuff true? I have heard that Test should be the base and Eq and such should be added to it...
    WHo knows??I wouldn't put much thought into an article without cited evidence.

  6. #6
    needle's Avatar
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    Interesting ! I Always like new info-

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    Several members have tried to verify claims made in this article...nobody has been able to. It should be dismissed as pure B.S.

  8. #8
    blown is offline Associate Member
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    I've been told before by a vet friend that eq and deca promote tendon strength, dunno about the rest of it though.

  9. #9
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    Guys stop worrying. I see no references in this post. No scientific evidence.

  10. #10
    Ntpadude is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    This post (it's by "Animal Mass") has been refuted many times here...
    Yea making it sound like winstrol is good for tendons and bone joints, ask Buylongterm what he thinks of Winstrol's benefits for tendons and bone joints. I've read that test reduces callogen by more like 10%, not 50 to 80%, someone is just making this all up.

  11. #11
    Ntpadude is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMA
    what r the real statistics? how can we prevent injury? does EQ really help joints? fair amount of anecdotal evidence it has the opposite effect.
    I havent used EQ but know guys that say their elbows and knees started hurting real bad when on EQ, to the contrary deca is widely known for soothing bone joints, deca even all but cured my knee bursitus so I can vouch for deca.

  12. #12
    scorp's Avatar
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    In regards to the Winstrol in the Thread Starter

    Title: Stimulation of collagen synthesis by the anabolic steroid stanozolol .

    Researchers: Falanga V, Greenberg AS, Zhou L, Ochoa SM, Roberts AB, Falabella A, Yamaguchi Y; University of Miami School of Medicine, Department of Dermatology, Miami, Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Florida, USA.

    Source: J Invest Dermatol 1998 Dec;111(6):1193-7

    Summary: In this report, we measured the effect of the anabolic steroid stanozolol on cell replication and collagen synthesis in cultures of adult human dermal fibroblasts. Stanozolol (0.625-5 micrograms per ml) had no effect on fibroblast replication and cell viability but enhanced collagen synthesis in a dose-dependent manner. Stanozolol also increased (by 2-fold) the mRNA levels of alpha1 (I) and alpha1 (III) procollagen and, to a similar extent, upregulated transforming growth factor-beta1 (TGF-beta1) mRNA and peptide levels. There was no stimulation of collagen synthesis by testosterone. The stimulatory effects of stanozolol on collagen synthesis were blocked by a TGF-beta1 anti-sense oligonucleotide, by antibodies to TGF-beta, and in dermal fibroblast cultures derived from TGF-beta-1 knockout mice. We conclude that collagen synthesis is increased by the anabolic steroid stanozolol and that, for the most part, this effect is due to TGF-beta-1. These findings point to a novel mechanism of action of anabolic steroids.

    Discussion: I must first acknowledge that the commonly held belief is that anabolic steroids predispose an athlete to tendon rupture. This conclusion is drawn from animal studies showing that some steroids produce a larger, stiffer tendon in rats and that these steroid-induced tendons "fail" before the tendons from the control animals. The term fail refers to the breaking point.

    The interesting thing about the present study is that the steroid stanozolol (Winstrol ) had a different effect than testosterone . If you are a regular reader of MESO-Rx you should be well aware that not all steroids act in the same manner. And that because of subtle differences in there molecular structure they are able to elicit different responses. For example, Deca seems to act primarily through the androgen receptor (AR) where as Dianabol has effects beyond those associated with the AR.

    Because synthetic steroids have differ in their chemical properties it should not be surprising that testosterone did not have the same effect as Winstrol. Winstrol increased collagen synthesis as opposed to testosterone which did not in this study. Interpreting the results of this study are more difficult than simply describing them. Other researchers have suggested that steroids cause a rapid increase in protein synthesis within tendon fibroblasts which results in fibroids or fibrous nodules within the tendon (Michna,1988). These fibroids alter the mechanical properties of the tendon perhaps predisposing it to rupture. It is also noted that during short term use of steroids there is an alteration in the alignment of collagen fibers which may also lead to rupture. Interestingly these alterations in collagen metabolism are transient with markers of collagen turnover returning more or less to baseline after 3-4 weeks of steroid administration (Karpakka,1992). These same researchers noted that low dose anabolics effect primarily muscle collagenous tissue with tendon being effected only at higher doses (i.e. 5 times the therapeutic dose) which would more closely represent what is needed by bodybuilders to put on mass.

    The question remains, does this mean that Winstrol will actually help prevent tendon injury or will it lead to bigger yet stiffer tendons prone to injury? It is difficult to take animal research and extrapolate the results to humans. Stanozolol is used therapeutically in humans to treat a variety of connective tissue and vascular disorders and its clinical effects suggest that it can modulate connective tissue breakdown in people. Despite being labeled as "ineffective" by many bodybuilders it is very popular among athletes. As with most hormones, dosage plays a role in what effects are seen, be they positive or negative. Hopefully future studies will shed light on the therapeutic effects of different steroids on tendons in humans.

    References:

    Michna H Appearance and ultrastructure of intranuclear crystalloids in tendon fibroblasts induced by an anabolic steroid hormone in the mouse. Acta Anat (Basel) 1988;133(3):247-50

    Karpakka JA, Pesola MK, Takala TE. The effects of anabolic steroids on collagen synthesis in rat skeletal muscle and tendon. A preliminary report. Am J Sports Med 1992 May-Jun;20(3):262-6


  13. #13
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    In regards to the Deca

    Steroids May Improve Tendon Repair After Surgery
    posted by FContact on atomicalmuscle

    Steroids May Improve Tendon Repair After Surgery

    Reuters Health

    By Merritt McKinney

    Thursday, July 1, 2004


    NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Anabolic steroids are against the rules for professional athletes, but preliminary research suggests that steroids may help repair a shoulder injury that affects many professional and weekend athletes.

    In lab experiments using bioengineered tendons, researchers at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill found that tendons treated with an anabolic steroid were stronger than untreated tendons.

    "In a highly experimental model, anabolic steroids do appear to improve the quality of rotator cuff tendon tissue," lead author Dr. Spero G. Karas told Reuters Health.

    Most likely, steroids help by improving protein production in each tendon cell or by boosting the way tendon cells communicate with each other, Karas said.

    But don't expect doctors to start prescribing anabolic steroids to people who have rotator cuff surgery any time soon. Karas cautioned that much more testing needs to be done.

    "If enough testing can conclude that this treatment is effective, then of course we could attempt it in humans with difficult rotator cuff injuries," Karas said.

    The rotator cuff is made up of the muscles and tendons that hold the upper arm bone to the shoulder. When the rotator cuff is injured, surgery may be performed to repair it. Unfortunately, healing after surgery is often incomplete and many people experience repeat rotator cuff injuries.

    Anabolic steroids are known to build muscle mass and boost strength, so Karas and his colleagues set out to see whether steroids might improve rotator cuff healing.

    The research involved bioengineered tendons developed by co-author Dr. Albert J. Banes. The researchers collected tendon samples from six people who were having rotator cuff surgery. Cells from these tendons were isolated and used to grow the bioengineered tendons.

    Some of these tendons were treated with the anabolic steroid nandrolone decanoate, while others were not. Some tendons were also subjected to load testing, in which the tendons were stretched.

    Tendons that had been treated with steroids and subjected to loading were stronger, denser and more elastic than other tendons, the researchers report in the American Journal of Sports Medicine. The steroid-treated tendons also had a more natural appearance than other tendons.

    The research will not have an immediate impact on the treatment of rotator cuff injuries, but the research establishes a way to test the effect of mechanical stress and medications on tendon cells, Karas said.

    "Any drug can be tested, but we chose an anabolic agent because of its successful background in treating patients with burns and other injuries," Karas said.

    Another potential implication of the research, according to Karas, is that it "may permit us to manufacture a matrix of tissue that can be used to replace deficient human tissues."

    Karas noted, "We are only in the embryonic phases of this work. We are a long way off, but the potential is exciting."

    SOURCE: American Journal of Sports Medicine, June 2004

  14. #14
    Hed
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    Ok, so in this collagen synthesis reduction, how long does it take to stop producing, do your tendons actually shrink, and how long does it take to build up again?

  15. #15
    scorp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hedzilla
    Ok, so in this collagen synthesis reduction, (1)how long does it take to stop producing, (2)do your tendons actually shrink, and (3)how long does it take to build up again?
    Answer to Question 1: That would be indicative to the dose that you are administering and the frequency of dosing, according to the study? Did you not read that in the study? It states those variables in the study.
    Answer to Question 2: That would be dependant on your genetic make-up and how you react to the compound in question.
    Answer to Question 3: Again, that is solely dependant upon your genetic make-up. How quick can your body return to a state of homeostasis regarding collagen formation? You would know that answer in due time.

  16. #16
    *Narkissos*'s Avatar
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    Prompt reply Scorp.
    Will have to look into the studies you posted.

  17. #17
    ace ventura is offline Member
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    Is an increase in bone mass and density visible to the eye? Will the bones get bigger?

    One a little stupid question... what is "wood"? (Sorry, I'm not American/English).

  18. #18
    Latimus's Avatar
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    wood...is the result of too much test.

  19. #19
    ***xxx***'s Avatar
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    the bones won t get bigger. the density will get higher. that doesnt indicate that your bones is growing wider or anything.

  20. #20
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    If you take sus alone will your tendons be damaged then? Just about to start a 500/750 mg per week cycle.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colunda
    If you take sus alone will your tendons be damaged then? Just about to start a 500/750 mg per week cycle.
    no the damage comes from lifting really heavy weights too fast in a process.. you are at risk of injuring tendons mainly as stated before, your muscles will grow faster than your tendons. deca covers this not cures it! you move up in small increments is the safest way to do go up without risk of injury.. also form is key!! be smart and use your head! though you may feel like you can flip a car, common sense tells you not to

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    Great Post.........all Though Info Takin With A Grain Of Salt Till Sources Are Backed Up......

  23. #23
    scorp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narkissos
    Prompt reply Scorp.
    Will have to look into the studies you posted.
    You will find that there are relatively few studies out there on steroids that are actually based on human studies. In this day and age it will be even harder to get and find legit studies in which humans were used in the studies. In my 18 years of cycling agents I have personally found that EQ works best for me in regards to the healing of injuries. That is me and it may or may not apply to others. Unless you have a identical twin, chances are you may never experience the same exact situation regarding the issue at hand that others may experience. Or any situation for that matter. Here is something to consider. The EPO production that is associated with EQ may or may not play a part in the equation. Typically, if you have more red blood cells, tissue oxygenation will be that much better, thus promoting better recovery in many areas.

  24. #24
    scorp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGPAPAPUMP77
    Great Post.........all Though Info Takin With A Grain Of Salt Till Sources Are Backed Up......

    They are legit brother. I would not post bull**** for the sake of posting bull****. I believe in promoting the education of AAS, not stiphening it. You have my word on that pilgrim. Feel free to dig up what you can on the articles that I have posted. There are actually quite a few on the ones that I posted. Check them out and compare. The info is very consistent.

  25. #25
    scorp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colunda
    If you take sus alone will your tendons be damaged then? Just about to start a 500/750 mg per week cycle.
    In the article on Winstrol it did indicate that Test compounds have diminshing returns in regard to collagen formation. I would advise that you take a good bit of Ester-C, which will promote collagen formation in the body. A lack of oxygen in the body is never a good thing and Test compounds will surely induce that sort of thing when they are used in a cycle. That type of situation leads to the oxidation of tissues. A ooxidative environment if you will. That is something to think about.

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