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  1. #1
    Steroider is offline Associate Member
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    Exclamation help stacking Clen with my cycle

    hi all ,

    this is my 4th ( 2nd bulking ) cycle , i planned it to score gainig mass quality muscles as 1st goal and lose fat to be my 2nd goal , also planning to stack Deca to help with joint pain at 100mg/week , so for how long should i run Deca and when i must drop it to be synchronous with the other compounds and PCT ?
    i also would stack and run Clen ( first time useing ) so i did lots of researchs and read lots of threads , i find two concepts , some advice to use clen through cycleing to exalt he results of the cycle and some other dont agree and in ther opinion it possibly makes steroids less effective while others recomands to run clen with T3 , actualy my goals is to lose fat as much as i can and keep my gain ( read some threads says clen helps with keeping the gain if u run it through PCT ) pleas need serious help with that issue

    1-4 Prop 100mg / ED
    1-13 Enan 500mg / wk
    1-12 EQ 400mg / wk
    14-15 Prop100mg / ED
    7-15 Tren -Ac 75mg / ED
    1-13 Letro .5mg / ED
    13-15 Nolva 20mg / ED
    13-15 L-dex .25mg / ED

    Start PCT 3 days after last Prop injection
    Day 1 - 30 100mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva / .25mg L-dex
    HCG weeks (1-14 ) 1000iu/week

    vitamin B6-200mg ED through the cycle and PCT
    M-vitamins + zinc through the cycle and PCT
    Legalon 70 ED through the cycle and PCT ( liver supporter (
    some ( kidney supporter ) through the cycle and PCT

    Any suggestions or comments about the whole cycle r welcomed

  2. #2
    G-1000's Avatar
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    i would change this cycle. i would do somthing like this.

    1-4 prop 100mg day
    1-14 test-e 800mg week
    1-12 eq 600mg week
    1-12 tren hex 500mg week.
    1-13 200mg b-6
    1-14 1.5 l-dex

    10-11 hcg 2000iu eod

    you will see much better gains.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsxxr
    i would change this cycle. i would do somthing like this.

    1-4 prop 100mg day
    1-14 test-e 800mg week
    1-12 eq 600mg week
    1-12 tren hex 500mg week.
    1-13 200mg b-6
    1-14 1.5 l-dex

    10-11 hcg 2000iu eod

    you will see much better gains.


    I like this one way more.


    Back in action I see GSXXR.

  4. #4
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    My last cycle was:
    test-E 500mg/wk + EQ 400mg/wk

    i run that for 5 weeks and i gain 7.5 kg .. i think with this doses i can score good results i think i dont need larg doses

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steroider
    My last cycle was:
    test-E 500mg/wk + EQ 400mg/wk

    i run that for 5 weeks and i gain 7.5 kg .. i think with this doses i can score good results i think i dont need larg doses

    5 weeks. the test just started and the eq did nothing.

  6. #6
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    i planned to run this cycle for 15 weeks but i quit the cycle coz i didnt expect that much gain in that short time
    Last edited by Steroider; 12-02-2005 at 05:20 PM.

  7. #7
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    I wouldn't run 2000iu eod, here's a study posted by Nandi12 at CEM

    Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

    Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R.

    Division Endocrinologia, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biologia y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

    The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.
    __________________________

    So HCG is better at the lower doses, here's one more study showing, 5-300iu doses is better then one 1500iu dose.

    Posted by hhajdo at S’ology

    Differential effect of single high dose and divided small dose administration of human chorionic gonadotropin on Leydig cell steroidogenic desensitization.

    Smals AG, Pieters GF, Boers GH, Raemakers JM, Hermus AR, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

    This study compared the effect of a single high dose of hCG (1500 IU) with that of the same dose administered in multiple small doses (300 IU, once daily for 5 days) on Leydig cell steroidogenesis. Administration of a single high dose of hCG to seven healthy men raised the mean plasma testosterone (T) level to peak levels 2.1 +/- 0.2 (SEM) X the baseline value at 48 h. Thereafter plasma T decreased to below normal (0.7 +/- 0.1 X baseline) 7 days after the injection. The mean 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) level peaked at 24 h (2.5 +/- 0.2 X baseline) and then also fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.2 X baseline on day 7. Reflecting the early accumulation of 17-OHP over T, the 17 OHP/T ratio reached its maximum (1.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline) at 24 h at the same time when plasma estradiol [(E2) 4.4 +/- 0.6 X baseline] and the ratio E2/T (2.7 +/- 0.3 X baseline) achieved their maximal values. Administration of 1500 IU hCG in five divided doses of 300 IU daily increased the mean plasma T levels to peak value of 2.1 +/- 0.2 X baseline at 5 days and the levels remained elevated thereafter. The response of T as reflected by the area under the curve was almost twice as great as in the single dose study (2844 +/- 360 vs. 1647 +/- 214). In contrast to the single high dose experiment, mean plasma 17-OHP levels in the divided dose protocol did not peak at 24 h but only gradually increased. As the increase of T exceeded the 17-OHP increase at almost all time intervals, no accumulation of 17-OHP over T occurred as in the single dose experiment. Instead the 17-OHP/T ratio fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline on day 7. The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased. Considering both experiments together a close relation was found between the hCG-induced increases in E2 and 17-OHP (r = +0.88, P less than 0.001), as well as the ratio 17 OHP/T (r = +0.64, P less than 0.02).
    ___________________________

    After reading both studies you can see that increased estrogen, desensitizes the testes to LH and it starts as low as 1500iu one dose. We seen the same type of reaction with 2000iu 3X a week.

    JohnnyB

  8. #8
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    Why use aas if you dont want to gain weight I dont get it.

  9. #9
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    I guess I should say what would be the way to use HCG . 300-500iu every 3-5 days, from day one of the cycle. This will keep the boys alive, which will give your body one less thing to recover from.

    JohnnyB

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB
    I guess I should say what would be the way to use HCG . 300-500iu every 3-5 days, from day one of the cycle. This will keep the boys alive, which will give your body one less thing to recover from.

    JohnnyB
    thanx for that info , but what about the clen and T3 issue !i really need help with that

  11. #11
    chest6's Avatar
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    You could run T3 during cycle and clen for PCT that would be a good combo

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by chest6
    Why use aas if you dont want to gain weight I dont get it.
    i didnt expct that much of gain in that shot time , i get scared if i did 15 weeks what would happen ! even my clothes wont fit me

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB
    I wouldn't run 2000iu eod, here's a study posted by Nandi12 at CEM

    Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

    Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R.

    Division Endocrinologia, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biologia y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

    The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.
    __________________________

    So HCG is better at the lower doses, here's one more study showing, 5-300iu doses is better then one 1500iu dose.

    Posted by hhajdo at S’ology

    Differential effect of single high dose and divided small dose administration of human chorionic gonadotropin on Leydig cell steroidogenic desensitization.

    Smals AG, Pieters GF, Boers GH, Raemakers JM, Hermus AR, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

    This study compared the effect of a single high dose of hCG (1500 IU) with that of the same dose administered in multiple small doses (300 IU, once daily for 5 days) on Leydig cell steroidogenesis. Administration of a single high dose of hCG to seven healthy men raised the mean plasma testosterone (T) level to peak levels 2.1 +/- 0.2 (SEM) X the baseline value at 48 h. Thereafter plasma T decreased to below normal (0.7 +/- 0.1 X baseline) 7 days after the injection. The mean 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) level peaked at 24 h (2.5 +/- 0.2 X baseline) and then also fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.2 X baseline on day 7. Reflecting the early accumulation of 17-OHP over T, the 17 OHP/T ratio reached its maximum (1.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline) at 24 h at the same time when plasma estradiol [(E2) 4.4 +/- 0.6 X baseline] and the ratio E2/T (2.7 +/- 0.3 X baseline) achieved their maximal values. Administration of 1500 IU hCG in five divided doses of 300 IU daily increased the mean plasma T levels to peak value of 2.1 +/- 0.2 X baseline at 5 days and the levels remained elevated thereafter. The response of T as reflected by the area under the curve was almost twice as great as in the single dose study (2844 +/- 360 vs. 1647 +/- 214). In contrast to the single high dose experiment, mean plasma 17-OHP levels in the divided dose protocol did not peak at 24 h but only gradually increased. As the increase of T exceeded the 17-OHP increase at almost all time intervals, no accumulation of 17-OHP over T occurred as in the single dose experiment. Instead the 17-OHP/T ratio fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline on day 7. The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased. Considering both experiments together a close relation was found between the hCG-induced increases in E2 and 17-OHP (r = +0.88, P less than 0.001), as well as the ratio 17 OHP/T (r = +0.64, P less than 0.02).
    ___________________________

    After reading both studies you can see that increased estrogen, desensitizes the testes to LH and it starts as low as 1500iu one dose. We seen the same type of reaction with 2000iu 3X a week.

    JohnnyB
    I have seen this and read it. I have done it bolth way befor. But the only way i saw results was when i ran the 2000iu. now im not saying that the study is wrong at all. i just find when i run tren i come back much quicker.

    this was my last cycle and pct.
    1-18 test 1g week
    1-15 eq 600mg week
    1-16 tren 70mg day.

    this is how i ran my anti-e and pct
    1-18 nolv 10mg day
    4-20 b-6 200mg day
    week 16 hcg 2000iu eod for a total of 10000
    18-21 clomid 300 200 100-----
    18-21 trib 1g day

    When i did it this way i was back up and running by week 2. i was getting up in the am with a morning wood ... Also no gyno at all or puffy niples

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by chest6
    You could run T3 during cycle and clen for PCT that would be a good combo
    at what doses should i run T3 and for how long ?

  15. #15
    Steroider is offline Associate Member
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    guys pleas stay with the subject

  16. #16
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    Dosages are similiar to clen You can ramp up the T3 to 100-125mcg during cycle and the same with clen for PCT

  17. #17
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    this is how i ran my anti-e and pct
    1-18 nolv 10mg day
    4-20 b-6 200mg day
    week 16 hcg 2000iu eod for a total of 10000
    18-21 clomid 300 200 100-----
    18-21 trib 1g day

    When i did it this way i was back up and running by week 2. i was getting up in the am with a morning wood ... Also no gyno at all or puffy niples[/QUOTE]

    do u suggest that PCT to me to run after this cycle ? i mean nolva and clomid

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB
    I guess I should say what would be the way to use HCG . 300-500iu every 3-5 days, from day one of the cycle. This will keep the boys alive, which will give your body one less thing to recover from.

    JohnnyB

    yes this is true. and work well.

  19. #19
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    ok dont take this the wrong way but. The cycle you have set up way out of your league. If your last cycle was test and eq and you only ran it for 5 weeks because you were scared of the gains. Then there is no way in hell you are ready for something as complicated is this.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsxxr
    I have seen this and read it. I have done it bolth way befor. But the only way i saw results was when i ran the 2000iu. now im not saying that the study is wrong at all. i just find when i run tren i come back much quicker.

    this was my last cycle and pct.
    1-18 test 1g week
    1-15 eq 600mg week
    1-16 tren 70mg day.

    this is how i ran my anti-e and pct
    1-18 nolv 10mg day
    4-20 b-6 200mg day
    week 16 hcg 2000iu eod for a total of 10000
    18-21 clomid 300 200 100-----
    18-21 trib 1g day

    When i did it this way i was back up and running by week 2. i was getting up in the am with a morning wood ... Also no gyno at all or puffy niples
    I'm not saying doing 2000iu wouldn't work, just say it adds side effects. I've run HCG at 500iu e3d when I was on Test/tren/eq and it worked great. But bottom line we all need to find what works for us. I lean toward finding a way with the least amount of sides, I like to use the least amount of drugs as possible, so if I can avoid the sides and get the same effect, that's what I'm going to use

    JohnnyB

  21. #21
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    Well, yes but not those weeks obviously. Your PCT setup is correct in your first post

  22. #22
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    I went a little high with the HCG dosage awhile ago, picked up a little gyno. So yes, next time I'll stay around 500IU E3D or so.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steroider
    at what doses should i run T3 and for how long ?
    12.5-25mg ed during the cycle, as far as clen goes I don't use it

    JohnnyB

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB
    I'm not saying doing 2000iu wouldn't work, just say it adds side effects. I've run HCG at 500iu e3d when I was on Test/tren /eq and it worked great. But bottom line we all need to find what works for us. I lean toward finding a way with the least amount of sides, I like to use the least amount of drugs as possible, so if I can avoid the sides and get the same effect, that's what I'm going to use

    JohnnyB

    what sides do you get from teh hcg.

    the only thing i get is acne BAD

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by chest6
    Dosages are similiar to clen You can ramp up the T3 to 100-125mcg during cycle and the same with clen for PCT
    start with low doses and increase the doses to 100 or 125mcg , correct me if im wrong , should i split the doses through the day ?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsxxr
    ok dont take this the wrong way but. The cycle you have set up way out of your league. If your last cycle was test and eq and you only ran it for 5 weeks because you were scared of the gains. Then there is no way in hell you are ready for something as complicated is this.
    I agree, I don't understand using gear and being afraid of gaining muscle

    JohnnyB

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsxxr
    ok dont take this the wrong way but. The cycle you have set up way out of your league. If your last cycle was test and eq and you only ran it for 5 weeks because you were scared of the gains. Then there is no way in hell you are ready for something as complicated is this.
    it was my first long cycle but now im pretty sure im full ready for that

  28. #28
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    I have a buddy of mine that is doing a

    porp
    primo
    winny

    He as put on 7-9 pounds and is lean and ripped and hell. he lost like 6% BF in this cycle. there was no need to run t-3 or clen . this looks to me like some thing your looking for.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB
    I agree, I don't understand using gear and being afraid of gaining muscle

    JohnnyB
    actualy when i read the threads here i sow almost every body happey when he gain 7 or 10 kg in 15 weeks , but in 5 weeks ! how much im gonna gain ? that issue makes me scare , but not any more ill do my 15 weeks this time for sure

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsxxr
    I have a buddy of mine that is doing a

    porp
    primo
    winny

    He as put on 7-9 pounds and is lean and ripped and hell. he lost like 6% BF in this cycle. there was no need to run t-3 or clen. this looks to me like some thing your looking for.
    yes , these are my goals

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsxxr
    what sides do you get from teh hcg .

    the only thing i get is acne BAD
    I don't get any, I've never used over 500iu at a time

    JohnnyB

  32. #32
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    that would be a much better cycle and a lot easeier

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB
    I don't get any, I've never used over 500iu at a time

    JohnnyB

    i might try it that way 1 last time. but that means i need to stick even more. some days i feel like a pin cushen

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steroider
    actualy when i read the threads here i sow almost every body happey when he gain 7 or 10 kg in 15 weeks , but in 5 weeks ! how much im gonna gain ? that issue makes me scare , but not any more ill do my 15 weeks this time for sure
    I thought maybe you had an issue with gaining to much weight because of work or something, some are trying to hide it from their wife or GF. I'm blessed when it comes to that my wife has no problem with me juicing

    JohnnyB

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    Quote Originally Posted by gsxxr
    that would be a much better cycle and a lot easeier
    ill stack the same cycle when i get LR3 IGF-1 in hand , very soon and after finishing this cycle
    Last edited by Steroider; 12-02-2005 at 06:05 PM.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB
    I thought maybe you had an issue with gaining to much weight because of work or something, some are trying to hide it from their wife or GF. I'm blessed when it comes to that my wife has no problem with me juicing

    JohnnyB
    nothing of that i only have big scars on my arms and shoulders

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    for how long should i run Deca and when i must drop it , need help with this issue

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