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  1. #1
    BASK8KACE is offline Anabolic Member
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    May 2002

    Estrogen and anti-e's: The European point of view

    Here's an article from the European point of view regarding the necessity to block as much estrogen as possible during a cycle:

    Estrogen and anti-e:
    It is an obsolete belief that estrogen is necessary in any cycle. Indeed, ANY amount of estrogen is BAD in any cycle! There is not one study which supports the notion. But the idea lived on in yet another obsolete notion; that water weight is good weight, in a cycle. That, water introduced into the muscle, causes increased lifts, and by lifting heavier, greater growth is obtained. The experts would purposely advise minimal amounts of anti-estrogen drugs, only to minimize the chance of gyno, but to insure lots of this, supposedly, desirable water weight. On the AE boards, I have witnessed these experts advising NO anti-e's, but only to have some Nolvadex at hand, to deal with gyno, should it appear. Not only do you end up with fake strength and fake muscle size, but, at the same time, the estrogen buildup causes high blood pressure, electrolyte imbalance, and a host of health issues. There is water buildup in the lower back to the extent that posts frequently document BBers in pain, cramps, and difficulty, attempting deads. The champions of this approach say "Oh just take some ibuprofen, and you will be just fine". Try asking your liver what it thinks about that approach. Following the cycle, the water disappears, along with the strength and size it fooled the user into believing was real muscle. This often causes depression, and chases the user into a course of creatine, to re-introduce that fake size and strength. The muscle character appears smooth, and the density is poor. When the BBer diets down, all this is lost, and the truth is seen. It's no wonder that certain other experts advise that BBers never come off AAS, so this scenario may never be exposed for what it is: a rollercoaster of reality versus water weight. I agree with them. It is not healthy to run back and forth between lost size and fullness caused by water weight. But it also is not a good thing to stay on AAS, all the time, either. This is a totally brain dead approach to AAS use. And the BBer who engages in it never attains the quality, defined physique he deserves. It's just a lot of smooth water weight and high body fat.

    And body fat. Everyone should know that the presence of excess estrogen causes fat deposition. The greater and the longer the exposure to elevated levels of estrogen, the greater the body fat accumulation. Endos, listen up; stay away from any situation which creates elevated estrogen levels. Everyone, listen up; it is OBSOLETE cycle technology to enable anything but minimal levels of estrogen, at any time. Estrogen is evil, and it is NOT your friend. Using anti-e's cannot reduce estrogen to levels below which the male body cannot function properly. It requires very little estrogen to function, and no anti-e removes it all.

    What to do? Begin, with an entirely different approach. Say that ANY water weight is BAD weight. That estrogen must be banished, to the fullest rational extent. And that the muscle you grow and see is, in fact, muscle, and not water. That the muscle produced will be dense and well defined. A quality physique. How, then does one obtain that increased strength, which the water provided, to enhance growth during the cycle? As stated, we first kill off the estrogen and bloat. Second, we emphasize the introduction of powerful androgens into the cycle structure. I am speaking, once again, of tren and anavar . Together, these components make you VERY strong. And with NO bloat or estrogen required. The concentrated androgenicity encourages intense, aggressive workouts, while also encouraging fat burning. It is very commonplace to observe body recompositions during such cycles. In other words, you get big and lose body fat, simultaneously. The androgenicity also produces significantly increased muscle density and definition. At cycle end, what you end up with, is the real deal. Solid muscle, growth, and increased definition. No need to rush to the nearest container of creatine to stem your losses. And that strength is yours, to keep. And no test.....

    Now, go back to that blood concentration calculator, and compare the blood concentrations of the typical 75 mg EOD of tren, to what you were subjecting yourself to, with that long halflife ester cycle. No stress caused by estrogen pileup, either. Now, you tell me which alternative is better.

    What do we use to suppress estrogen? Well, we formerly used Arimidex . Arimidex is now an antique for us. We use Femara. We prefer one 2.5 mg tab ED. Our clients are kept dry as a bone. We will begin to study Aromasin , in mid-September. Aromasin utilizes a different approach to Estrogen control, which promises to be even more powerful than Femara. But research indicates that IGF-1 production is not suppressed by Femara, but may, in fact, be enhanced by it. We do not see that with Aromasin. Time and experimentation will tell.

    Most importantly, we keep our people on anti-e, post cycle, during the HTPA recovery process, and later. This both speeds recovery of the HTPA, as well as minimizing fat buildup, while hormone levels fluctuate wildly.

  2. #2
    usualsuspect's Avatar
    usualsuspect is offline Anabolic Member
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    Jul 2002
    I agree, it only makes sense to use an anti-e to prevent water retention or even worst gyno, from occuring. Instead of waiting after the fact when it's almost too late.

    Kinda like waiting to buy car insurance after you get into a car accident. Better to be safe than sorry in my book.


  3. #3
    trimunex's Avatar
    trimunex is offline Senior Member
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    Jul 2002
    Thanks for the post Bask8kace .. a couple of months ago I read in MD that Femara would be the anti-e of the future. It looks like it could be on its way, I have yet to hear any bad comments about it.


  4. #4
    LORDBLiTZ Guest
    Good post.

  5. #5
    dutchboy's Avatar
    dutchboy is offline Associate Member
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    Jul 2003
    I agree. That makes perfect sense to me. I have always used armidex because I didn't want ANY extra estrogen and did not feel it hurt my gains at all. It is good to read what I have been thinking for a long time....if all a-dex does is stop conversion you will never go below your normal level anyway and I have never bought the fact that estrogen is "good", or that joints dry out while on anti-aromatoses', because it doesn't destroy whats already there just keeps the levels from rising. I may be totally off base on this, but that is my .02

  6. #6
    Lift Chief's Avatar
    Lift Chief is offline Member
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    Apr 2002
    Approaching Nirvana.
    Keeping estrogen levels too low will rape your lipid profiles. 2.5mg of Femara ED is just overkill, plain and simple. You'd never need to use that much.

  7. #7
    Jimbo5150 is offline New Member
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    Feb 2004
    good posts!! How much aromasin should you take per week with a test and fina cycle?

  8. #8
    spywizard's Avatar
    spywizard is offline AR-Elite Hall of Famer~
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    Dec 2003
    In the Gym, if i could


    Great post.. i did read it somewhere else... and have been running the e's throughout ..............
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  9. #9
    zx7racing's Avatar
    zx7racing is offline Senior Member
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    Apr 2003
    good read..

  10. #10
    debulkred is offline Junior Member
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    Jan 2004
    I do not say this enough but from all the research I have come up with. We need to get rid of estrogen as much as we need as long as the estrogen levels are safe enough. With that In mind, for every cycle their should be at least a couple of anti-estrogen inhibitors. Nolva doesn't do all the work, specially if you are in a cycle that is high on androgens. It is my believe that Nolva should be taken along with Arimidex (at safe amounts) to prevent you from getting side effects that are related to high estrogen levels. When estrogen rises so do testosterone levels lower and many people do not care to know this or don't bother to do their research.

    For example, the ratio from testosterone to Estrogen would be around 50:1 among younger males and it decreases to 8:1 as we reach our middle ages. It is important to ensure that your testosterone levels are high and your estrogen levels are kept near the bodies natural usual levels when you don't use anabolic steroids . If you aren't using anti estrogens you are likely robbing yourself from any gains. Higher levels of estrogen in men induce the risk of having high blood pressure which leads to heart attacks, heart enlargement and even death.

    There are a couple of firm believers that estrogen is important for your growth, as stated above. In the ways mentioned they are however, indirectly. A dose of arimidex at 0.25 and nolva at 10-20mg is enough to keep the body in check and if dosages are needed to be highered due a noticable side effect then the A.S user should not hesistate to.

    I find this analogy to be like a soccer game, Nolva is the Goalie and Arimidex is the defenders.

    - Debulred

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