02-27-2004, 06:19 PM #1
low doseage test cycle as a first.
well, ive narrowed it down, after long hard researching and studying.im gonna go with a low dose test cycle.enanthate .gonna start out with 250 mg every 5 days, then SPIKE it halfway through the 10 week cycle to about 350 mg and then come back down.taking clomid the whole way through.ive got the test but as for the clomid, i still need to get some before i start. any idea of how much this would coust me?
im kinda sick of reading how new kids on these forums like me are trying to start out with a dbol /eq/deca /winny cycle.im pretty convinced after thorough evidence(brothers and friends), that low doseage single supplement cycles are the way to go for your first.ill post b4 and after pics hopefully.
02-27-2004, 06:47 PM #2
any critiques at all?btw, i only meant to run the clomid 1 week after the last shot for 12-14 days or so.
02-27-2004, 06:51 PM #3Junior Member
- Join Date
- Jan 2004
- england manchester
why would you run the clomid all the way through would it still be effective as pcr
02-27-2004, 06:51 PM #4Swellin Guest
Well, you got it right...partially.
I personnally like the idea of a low dose test cycle. However, there is absolutely no reason to pyramid the dosage.
DO NOT take clomid the whole way through. Start it two weeks after you last test e shot.
Try something like this.....
1-10 test e 150mg E4D
12-15 clomid....300mg the first day/100mg the next ten days/50mg the next ten days.
02-27-2004, 06:53 PM #5
wow , did you just say 150 mg every 4 days?isnt that kind hitting it low.i like going low for a first cycle but isnt going that low gonna be a little ineffective?
02-27-2004, 07:00 PM #6Swellin Guest
That is every 4 days...but it is only a little less than than 300mg per week (263). If you like...bump it to 200mg....or even 250mg. But, then you are not really doing a low dose when you get around 500mg for your first.
As for effectiveness...the average adult male produces between 75-100mg test per week. Anything in excess of that is better than what you have going right now.
What are your stats, including age?
02-27-2004, 07:01 PM #7Originally Posted by itsallmental
02-27-2004, 07:10 PM #8
i just started test 250 and im also taking dbol as my first cycle.. i was planning on taking 250 once a week.. should i be doing it every 4 or 5 days compared to once per 7 days?..i just wanna get big!
02-27-2004, 07:12 PM #9Originally Posted by phatmark
02-27-2004, 08:00 PM #10
Your 1st cycle should NOT and let me stress NOT be at a lower dosage than any other cycle. Overall gains mainly come from diet and your program. But don't get me wrong, dosages are very important. However, I as well as many others would have loved to know what we know now when we first started. My dosages would have been MUCH higher to take advantage of specific steroids . Taking 500mgs of test is a very modest dose. I do think it's funny how some say beginners cycles should consist of low doses. Ok, give me a rational and valid explanation as to why this should be so. Some try to say that your receptors are the most sensitive or react the most to your first cycle.
This is BULLSHT! Your body "produces, metabolizes and utilizes hormones and receptor sites every single day of your life. Your receptors are no more reactive on your 15th cycle then they would be on your first." My first cycle was a low dose cycle, and was not nearly as productive as my current cycles. As i'm sure you know, each androgen works best at certain dosages. For instance, 600mgs has a MUCH greater effect than say 300mgs a week. Trenbolone has a much greater stimulating and strength increase at 200mgs than 100mgs and so on. The cycle I reccomended for you is a modest cycle in terms of amount of androgens used. Understand that i'm just trying to set you up with the most effective cycle with the androgens that you listed. I would never give out advice that would harm you in any way!
My cycle for you would be minimum:
Wk1 First two shots of TestE should be 500mgs shot E3D
Wk2-10 TestE at 250mgs shotE3D
Use proper PCT and Anti-E's and you won't be sorry
Good Luck and have fun
02-27-2004, 08:21 PM #11Swellin Guest
While I do advocate trying a low dose cycle (see how much it takes to get what you want without the additional sides that usually come with higher doses), I don't mean they are only for first cycles.
BrownB listed a cycle, but it is not commonly recommended that a first time user front load. Most would take a more cautionary route and find out how their body reacts to the compounds before front loading. In fact, I have NEVER before seen it recommended for a first cycle.
While I agree that at the doseage you are talking, it shouldn't be a problem...why take that risk right off the bat?
02-27-2004, 08:30 PM #12
im currently running a test e 500 mg wk cycle for my first... i think its a perfectly resonable cycle, to me 250 sounds way too low...also i see no mention of nolve, you may want to take 10 mg ED throughout thus minimizing sides further (which should not be too bad even on a dose of 500 mg)
02-27-2004, 08:36 PM #13
I am currently putting together my second cycle. My first cycle i ran enanthate 250mg week 1-10.(no anti-e's) It was too low a dosage. From one newbie to the next run 500 mg a week. (i said one newbie to the next, heed the words of the experienced more0. and definitely don't run clomid till 8-12 days after ur last shot.
02-27-2004, 08:36 PM #14
to me it's all a matter of opinion, plenty of guys on here have done low dose cycles and done really well, it's just that 500mg as a starter has basically become a rule on here.
02-27-2004, 08:38 PM #15Swellin Guest
There are some Mods on here who have done several cycles, but never go above 500mg. They have found that for their bodies...it is just not necessary.
It is all dependant on the individual's response to test (and really on the diet more than anything else).
02-27-2004, 08:41 PM #16Originally Posted by Swellin
The sides one gets from 250mg will not be much greater then what they would get off of 500mgs a week but the gains would be IMO. This of course changes as dosages go up to higher levels (side effects vs. benefits)
As far as frontloading, if its your 1st or 10th cycle it doesnt matter. I have always been an advocate of frontloading. Your blood levels will reach the dsired level you want much faster. Giving you faster results. What sides would one see on taking 1000mgs of Test for 1 week that they wouldnt see from taking 500mgs for 10 weeks? Read my post on frontloading. Ill try and bring up the article for you guys.
02-27-2004, 08:46 PM #17
Outstanding article please read...
"Frontloading is the practice of taking a larger amount of a given drug in order to elevate blood levels rapidly in order to achieve the desired effect at a more rapid pace.
So, let's say you have androgen X and you plan on using 500 mg weekly. The half-life of this drug is around seven days. Well, after a week, you have approximately 250 mg in your bloodstream. So, at the moment of the next injection, you have ~750 mg in your bloodstream. Now, which week is going to yield better results, the first week or the second and thereafter? Of course, all of you will say the second week since the amount in the bloodstream is higher.
So, the reasoning here is that the first week is essentially useless since your blood levels aren't exactly at an optimal level. So instead, you could choose to frontload with 1,500 mg during the first week. After a week, you have blood levels of ~750 mg. So now the first week wasn't such a "waste." Essentially, what it comes down to is that you're accelerating the accumulation of the material in the bloodstream so that you don't waste that first week or two being at sub-optimal levels.
The drugs where frontloading really isn't as advantageous would be those with an extremely short half-life. So, if drug X has a half-life of 12 to 24 hours and you plan on injecting 500 mg per week, you'll only have a small amount (a few mg) in the bloodstream after a week has passed. Now, this changes when you consider the fact that guys are smart enough to perform daily or every other day injections. Even so, a short half-life just doesn't provide for blood levels to stay at a consistently high level, so there isn't as much of a reason to frontload. In my opinion, if the half-life is shorter than 72 hours, it isn't worth frontloading."
Frontloading is even recommend for the use of anti-bodies! It increase you BC levels at a much faster rate giving you the desired effect in less time.
A no brainer IMO.
02-27-2004, 08:56 PM #18Swellin Guest
I never disagreed with the benefit of front loading. My quam is in the same vein as those who prefer to add only one new compound per cycle...to see how your body reacts to each compound. I see it as a safer route to skip the frontloading for the first cycle or possibly two. Once you know how you respond...it makes perfect sense to frontload (as long as you are not using something else to kickstart).
I think that our recommendations simply differ with respect to safety...while the likelihood of such a small frontload causing problems is not that great...it is still a possibility. I would prefer to make a recommendation that errs toward safety, rather than taking an additional chance.
02-27-2004, 09:16 PM #19
an avg. adult male produces on avg. what would equate to about 70mg of test a week. So even 150mg is more than double that. I did dbol and test e 150mg sun+wed, or 300mg a wk. I think if its your first time and you train correctly you'll be more than happy.
02-27-2004, 09:18 PM #20
im gonna try the frontloading BB, but theres NO WAY, i repeat NO WAY im frontloading the way you told me to. your telling me to frontload my body with around 1100 mg's of Test(500 e3d). I dont care who you are, for a first cycle front load, this is way too much.i was thinking of doing a frontload of around 400 mg and then running 300 from there on out.we'll see how it turns out.
02-27-2004, 09:19 PM #21Originally Posted by DARKSEID
It's become a rule for no good reason. If you don't grow off of 250mg your first time around its most likely because you're not training hard enough, not eating right, or not getting enough rest...or perhaps a combination of the above.
02-27-2004, 09:28 PM #22Originally Posted by Shortyrock13
now that im alot more inofrmative about whats going in and out of my body im gonna do it correctly.im HOPING, that my body will react the same way as it did the first time.
171(i had to drop around 20 lbs to get into a desired weight class for Powerlifting meets)
been lifting since age 13
diet is in tact and training is ALWAYS balls to the wall
02-27-2004, 09:33 PM #23Originally Posted by Swellin
Do you see what Im trying to get at bro? Your not going to die if you take 1000mgs of Test, as Im sure you know. But the only bad response you can get is gyno, bloat, etc correct?
Thanks for your input!
02-27-2004, 09:38 PM #24Swellin GuestOriginally Posted by itsallmental
The difference between E3D and E4D is minimal. I guess it is up to the individual. I have been using E3.5D, just to keep the same days each week....Monday @8AM...Thursday @8PM. This eliminates any confusion on which day...and doesn't leave a calender with injection dates on it either.
02-27-2004, 09:44 PM #25Swellin GuestOriginally Posted by BrownBomber
The benefit would be effectively minimizing sides as quickly as possible (without suffering through them before achieving the correct dose). While at the same time, not overdoing the anti-e's which have their own sides with which to contend. As you well know, L-dex can have a negative affect on strength...which can in turn affect your trining from a mental perspective. A nebie might not have any idea about the L-dex...and get discouraged when their strength does not explode like they have heard it would...then they stop eating like they should...stop training like they should...etc. I use that as an example...you can also consider Nolva or any other anti-e's sides for this argument as well.
02-27-2004, 09:55 PM #26Originally Posted by Shortyrock13
The answer is simple cause the gains suck, if you see any at all. Larger doses will yeild better results. Like I said earlier if you take 600mgs of an androgen instead of 300mgs of the same androgen your results will be be greater. This of course will stop as the dosages get very high.
What type of dosing do you use now? I won't believe for a sec. that its still 300mgs a week.
02-27-2004, 10:05 PM #27Originally Posted by itsallmental
What??? There is no such thing as a "1st cycle" frontload. Either do it right and reap the benefits or use it wrong and say BB don't know his sht.
LIsten, if you frontload 1000mgs for the 1st week of TestE then take 500mgs for the following weeks.
Its the same. THE SAME
As taking 500mgs a week w/o a frontload from the begining to end except your body will just take a longer time to "feel" the dose your goin for.
You heard my peice, good luck either way.
02-27-2004, 10:19 PM #28Respected Member
- Join Date
- Apr 2002
- Miller's Crossing
I'm an advocate of introducing one new compound at a time(jumpstart excluded). Frontloading on a first is fine as well and doubling the doses is the optimal way to do that. Now, I do think a person should gradually up doses from cycle to cycle as everyone has their "prime spot". The point at which you stop seeing benefit, and more sides manifest would be beyond this. I still to this day have not gone above 750mg a wk on test(even though I'll be trying 375mg E3D soon to see if in fact this is beyond my "prime spot")
More is not always better, however longer is, as long as you can overcome homeostasis. I'm kind of digressing a this point as a first cycle should not take you beyond homeostasis
My recommendation for a first:
250mg Enan E4D
200mg Cyp E3D
Either for 10-12(My suggestion would be 12)
A frontload is fine, but it is should be double the dose. Thats the optimal way to administer. If your uncomfortable with that, opt for a jumpstart(low dose dbol or prop if you can handle ED injections on the first) or just run as is. Gains will come in time
Make sure your administering the proper AI's and SERMs during, and have a planned protocol to your PCT
02-27-2004, 10:23 PM #29Originally Posted by Swellin
How much LDex or Nolva will be taking to combat the sides at a "normal" dose? THe answer is you won't know for a 1st timer. If you take 500mgs and get signs of Gyno your gonna pop 40mgs of Nolva till it goes away. If you frontload 1000mgs of TestE for the 1st week and get signs of gyno what are you gonna do? The exact same thing!
The whole thing is a guessing game from person to person (much more so in regards to anti-e's then actual AS dosages from everything I ever read)
So Ill say it one last time (to Swellin at least, that stubborn bastard ) Frontloading for a 1st cycle as well as not-frontloading will still involve a guessing game , when it comes to sides and taking drugs to counteract them, so up that dosage for the 1st week and watch your gains come on that much faster!
02-27-2004, 10:30 PM #30Swellin GuestSo Ill say it one last time (to Swellin at least, that stubborn bastard )
I follow you...I just happen to disagree...only slightly. Now that the almighty Pheedno has spoken....I guess whatever I think has now been rendered useless.
As for that danm Pheedno.... him too!
I'm now bleary eyed from sitting in front of this computer..trying to hammer something into the head of the Brown Bomber.
I'm ready to start... everybody.
Okay...I'm really just delerious. But I will be watching you two turds that ganged up on me. Hey...I'll just get my buddy LMR to send a squad car out for you two.
Last edited by Swellin; 02-27-2004 at 10:31 PM. Reason: I was typing as bad as Tuna.
02-27-2004, 10:50 PM #31Originally Posted by BrownBomber
You are right, for a more experienced user, 300mg wont do diddly for the most part. Im not saying that one can continue to keep on low test doses, but it quickly becomes overkill, and I just find it silly that alot of bro's recomend 500mg first time out when 250 will work. I gained a little over 20 lbs in 10 wks on what is considered low doses, and didn't really experience alot of sides. I kept 15 lbs. I think thats pretty good and for me, and alot of other bro's who are with me on the low dose idea will agree, the gains don't really suck.
02-28-2004, 11:24 AM #32
Your a funny man Swellin. I had to get away from the comp. as everything on the screen was started to become 3D-ish. Must be one of the sides I get from frontloading
02-28-2004, 01:26 PM #33Swellin GuestOriginally Posted by BrownBomber
02-28-2004, 05:38 PM #34Originally Posted by Shortyrock13
I'de have to disagree with this statement. Gear, in all honesty is new to me, but training, eating, and rest have been a part of my life for six years now(well, ive been a pro at getting rest for 23 years now). I train every week with a friend that's a professional trainer. I ran 250mgs enanthate week 1-10 and I only gained 7 pounds and could pump out a few more reps per set. I ate like a horse and trained like an animal. My friend took 500mg per week of the same batch(his first cycle too). and he put on 20 pounds and his bench went up considerably. Our body types are nearly identical. I say this because i wouldn't want another newbie to suffer the same disappointment as me. For now, i can only research and plan my next cycle accordingly with the information provided. This time i will definitely run more test though
Last edited by arnold1980; 02-28-2004 at 05:48 PM.
02-29-2004, 11:47 AM #35
This concept is often employeed when administering drugs such as aminoglycosides or vancomycin, by which "massive" amounts are administed at a single bolus injection and then steady maintaince doses are administered keep steady plasma levels.
it sounds like a good idea for steroids but i dont see how it could be applicable. here's why. first off...test e is an ester it's purpose is to slowly dissociate from its salt to form free testosterone , and it does this at a rate somewhere around 3 weeks. This means that the "half life" is a very difficult number to compute because it goes in two phases 1)dissociation and 2) elimination.
the point off all this mumbo jumbo is that there is a set of equations used to figure out what the loading dose and maintenance doesages are meant to be. i'll run them later, and get a definate number. but typically the standard is administer the same amount as you would administer over 5 half lives in one single dose. which would compute to a HELL of a lot more than 500 mg vs 250.....it's gonna be more along the lines of 4000 mg. a number that i would suspect is a little excessive for an injection...
i'll do the math and half-life research if anyone is interested.
02-29-2004, 05:48 PM #36
I'de be interested, if ude be willing to crunch the numbers. There are many different opinions on AR on how much is necessary to frontload. Or even if frontloading is a waste of time and $$$$.
02-29-2004, 06:00 PM #37Originally Posted by arnold1980
aight man, i have a pharmacoeconomics test to study for tonight but i'll run all the equations tomarrow. i would do it now but i have to do quite a bit of work such as figureing out where the hell im gonna get Vd and k values for test esters....but its on my list of things to do...
02-29-2004, 11:24 PM #38Originally Posted by arnold1980
I guess Im just lucky and extra sensitive to juice then. But 'only' gaining 7 lbs is still solid. I'm gonna wager that your 7 lbs were of much better quality than your buddies 20 lbs. Could be wrong on that, but I don't think I am. Oh ... and which one of you got more round face on cycle? If anything is a tip off that someone is on its the puffy face which will be present a little even with anti-e's I think.
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