What's the best test to request for checking Estrogen levels?

**forrest_and_trees** · 06-16-2010, 03:17 PM

From what I've seen there are a number of estrogens to be tested for. Is there some sort of comprehensive test that works best for men or do you just check E1, E2, E3, etc?

**forrest_and_trees** · 06-17-2010, 04:07 PM

OK, so after talking to my doctor's assistant, I've been informed there are 3 separate tests available for checking Estrogen levels. E3, Estradiol, and Estradiol Ultra Sensitive. All three are pretty expensive, [over $100 each] and I'm thinking it's not necessary to take them all. I'm paying cash out of pocket for this so the question remains, which one should I get? At this point they're saying it's up to me which one I get so I need to decide.

As always, any and all input is greatly appreciated!

**tubs** · 06-17-2010, 07:24 PM

I always get my estradiol checked - i think my guy knows his stuff

**PPC** · 06-17-2010, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by forrest_and_trees

From what I've seen there are a number of estrogens to be tested for. Is there some sort of comprehensive test that works best for men or do you just check E1, E2, E3, etc?

Estradiol or E2 is the one that counts. Some do an ultra sensitive test but the one from Quest cannot be relied on and there is much debate on the subject. Dr Crisler has recently washed his hands of quest.

Labcorp has a regular E2 test which is what most of the online labs use but it also has an ultrasensitive one.

These two tests give very different answers. Usually the ultrasensitive comes back a lot lower than the regular test. The guys in my life that are on trt just use the regular test and it has been a good guage so far. I believe it is important to stick with the same test and not change around as that can mess with your head.

You can do a urinary test where they check the breakdown of all your estrogens. The idea with that is to see if your estrogen is breaking down into too much estrone (E1). That is not an optimal situation. For exampe too much oral dhea can cause this effect in men. Estrone is the estrogen blamed for most cancers.

**PPC** · 06-17-2010, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by forrest_and_trees

OK, so after talking to my doctor's assistant, I've been informed there are 3 separate tests available for checking Estrogen levels. E3, Estradiol, and Estradiol Ultra Sensitive. All three are pretty expensive, [over $100 each] and I'm thinking it's not necessary to take them all. I'm paying cash out of pocket for this so the question remains, which one should I get? At this point they're saying it's up to me which one I get so I need to decide.

As always, any and all input is greatly appreciated!

BTW privatemdlabs and LEF have the test for way cheaper than $100. They are around $30-$40.

**rmacgurn** · 06-19-2010, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by PPC

Estradiol or E2 is the one that counts. Some do an ultra sensitive test but the one from Quest cannot be relied on and there is much debate on the subject. Dr Crisler has recently washed his hands of quest.

Labcorp has a regular E2 test which is what most of the online labs use but it also has an ultrasensitive one.

These two tests give very different answers. Usually the ultrasensitive comes back a lot lower than the regular test. The guys in my life that are on trt just use the regular test and it has been a good guage so far. I believe it is important to stick with the same test and not change around as that can mess with your head.

You can do a urinary test where they check the breakdown of all your estrogens. The idea with that is to see if your estrogen is breaking down into too much estrone (E1). That is not an optimal situation. For exampe too much oral dhea can cause this effect in men. Estrone is the estrogen blamed for most cancers.

I believe it is actually E2, estradial that is commonly linked to cancers...at least in women who tend to be the ones receiving HRT with estrogen...E1 is weak estrogen, and E3 (most found in preg women) seems to have anti cancer effects.. IN short just monitor E2

**PPC** · 06-19-2010, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by rmacgurn

I believe it is actually E2, estradial that is commonly linked to cancers...at least in women who tend to be the ones receiving HRT with estrogen...E1 is weak estrogen, and E3 (most found in preg women) seems to have anti cancer effects.. IN short just monitor E2

Respectfully, (since you are a pioneer in antiaging and growth hormone ,) I must disagree a little.

Estradiol (E2) is a powerful estrogen (the one that causes a pubescent girl to grow hips and breasts,) but it is not as cancer forming as E1.

Premarin and the synthetic estrogens which were used for HRT for a long time caused E1 levels to become much higher than normal thus the significant rise in cancer for women who used them.

Menopausal women lose thier E2 after their ovaries stop working and just produce E1 from their fat cells. The years after menopause is when breast cancer rates rise and estrone is predominant. There is new evidence that applying a transdermal mixture of E2 and E3 to a postmenopasual's skin stops the body from making excess estrone and lowers breast cancer risks.

Young women in their twenties have very high amounts of E2 and cancer is rare in that time frame. This concept is similar to the myth that testosterone causes prostate cancer.

You are correct that E3 is even safer and has anticancer effects. That is why the best estrogen creams usually cosist of a ratio of 1:4 estradiol to estriol. Estriol needs to be atleast three times higher.

But you're right, E2 is the one that counts for men relative to testosterone.

**rmacgurn** · 06-20-2010, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by PPC

Respectfully, (since you are a pioneer in antiaging and growth hormone ,) I must disagree a little.

Estradiol (E2) is a powerful estrogen (the one that causes a pubescent girl to grow hips and breasts,) but it is not as cancer forming as E1.

Premarin and the synthetic estrogens which were used for HRT for a long time caused E1 levels to become much higher than normal thus the significant rise in cancer for women who used them.

Menopausal women lose thier E2 after their ovaries stop working and just produce E1 from their fat cells. The years after menopause is when breast cancer rates rise and estrone is predominant. There is new evidence that applying a transdermal mixture of E2 and E3 to a postmenopasual's skin stops the body from making excess estrone and lowers breast cancer risks.

Young women in their twenties have very high amounts of E2 and cancer is rare in that time frame. This concept is similar to the myth that testosterone causes prostate cancer.

You are correct that E3 is even safer and has anticancer effects. That is why the best estrogen creams usually cosist of a ratio of 1:4 estradiol to estriol. Estriol needs to be at least three times higher.

But you're right, E2 is the one that counts for men relative to testosterone.

Thank you for the nice comment.

And I will not claim to be an expert in Estrogen, but i have read several books and all seem to say E2 is the culprit and the current thought in the more advanced clinics it to balance estrogen with progesterone not add more estrogen (for women before menopause) as there are many estrogen dominate ladies out there. I agree post menopause E2 drops (as does test) but I believe all estrogen production drops dramatically as well as progesterone. And remember E2 is 12x more potent than E1. I did find some work liking endometrial cancers to E1.

Logically we can also look at the meds developed to fight cancer in women and they are aromatase inhibitors, which block the conversion of test to E2 as E1 is made by conversion of androstenedione. I am not sure what effect a letrozole or anastrozol have on conversion of androstenedione.

here are a few quotes from papers on the web.

"For women, cancer of the breast and/or in the uterus most often occurs with a progesterone (P) to estradiol (E2) ratio of less than 200 to 1. According to Dr David Zava of ZRT, who has amassed a database of tens of thousands of saliva samples and questionnaires, these cancers occur very rarely in women with a healthy P/E2 ratio."

"Molecular biologist, Dr. Ben Formby of Copenhagen, Denmark and Dr. T.S. Wiley at the University of California in Santa Barbara have researched two genes, BCL2 and P53, and their effect on female-specific cancers and prostate cancer.

Cells of breast, endometrium, ovary and prostate, were grown in the laboratory. Estrogen (estradiol) was added to the cells. This hormone turned on the BCL2 gene, causing the cells to grow rapidly and not die. Then, progesterone was added to the cell cultures. Cell reproduction stopped and the cells died on time (apoptosis).

This methodology was applied to all the above types of cancer. The BCL2 gene, therefore, stimulates the growth of these cells and the risk of cancer. On the other hand, the P53 gene promotes apoptosis or programmed cell death and thereby, reduces the risk of cancer. Estradiol upregulates or stimulates the production of the BCL2 gene, while progesterone upregulates or stimulates the production of the P53 gene."

"Keep in mind that a cancer cell differs from a normal cell in only two ways: (1) it multiplies faster and (2) it hasn’t differentiated and become developed into the full mature cell that it is suppose to.

Controlled tests indicated estradiol raised the cell proliferation rate over 200%, progesterone with estradiol brought it back to normal. The ones with progesterone only, lowered the proliferation rate by 400%. The authors concluded that they had shown that estrogen is truly a stimulant of breast cancer and progesterone is a protector of breast cancer.

Therefore natural progesterone decreases the risk for several types of cancer, while unopposed estradiol causes these same types of cancer."

Now I realize new work is being done everyday so if you have some links to that show E1 is the major problem I would like to see it. I am here to learn also. I believe for women, the best choice is progestreone not added E2/E3 alone. You could also conclude that if E1 levels where 12x higher then E2 the risk would be about the same for cancer from either, but i think will not happen. Anyway i think we are off topic here.

Cheers

**forrest_and_trees** · 06-20-2010, 09:57 PM

OK, so just to be certain, what I 'm hearing is the E2 test is what I need and E2 = the Estadiol test I mentioned above?

Secondly, and I realize this is a little of topic, however, rmacgurn do you have some reference-able urls for those articles? My mother is 74 and has some concerns about taking estrogen because of the risk of cancer, however I'm worried about her not due to osteoporosis and Alzheimer's. I'd like to print them out for her so she can read them and give them to her doctor to insure she's on the correct treatment. Thanks a ton!

**PPC** · 06-21-2010, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by rmacgurn

Thank you for the nice comment.

And I will not claim to be an expert in Estrogen, but i have read several books and all seem to say E2 is the culprit and the current thought in the more advanced clinics it to balance estrogen with progesterone not add more estrogen (for women before menopause) as there are many estrogen dominate ladies out there. I agree post menopause E2 drops (as does test) but I believe all estrogen production drops dramatically as well as progesterone. And remember E2 is 12x more potent than E1. I did find some work liking endometrial cancers to E1.

Logically we can also look at the meds developed to fight cancer in women and they are aromatase inhibitors, which block the conversion of test to E2 as E1 is made by conversion of androstenedione. I am not sure what effect a letrozole or anastrozol have on conversion of androstenedione.

here are a few quotes from papers on the web.

"For women, cancer of the breast and/or in the uterus most often occurs with a progesterone (P) to estradiol (E2) ratio of less than 200 to 1. According to Dr David Zava of ZRT, who has amassed a database of tens of thousands of saliva samples and questionnaires, these cancers occur very rarely in women with a healthy P/E2 ratio."

"Molecular biologist, Dr. Ben Formby of Copenhagen, Denmark and Dr. T.S. Wiley at the University of California in Santa Barbara have researched two genes, BCL2 and P53, and their effect on female-specific cancers and prostate cancer.

Cells of breast, endometrium, ovary and prostate, were grown in the laboratory. Estrogen (estradiol) was added to the cells. This hormone turned on the BCL2 gene, causing the cells to grow rapidly and not die. Then, progesterone was added to the cell cultures. Cell reproduction stopped and the cells died on time (apoptosis).

This methodology was applied to all the above types of cancer. The BCL2 gene, therefore, stimulates the growth of these cells and the risk of cancer. On the other hand, the P53 gene promotes apoptosis or programmed cell death and thereby, reduces the risk of cancer. Estradiol upregulates or stimulates the production of the BCL2 gene, while progesterone upregulates or stimulates the production of the P53 gene."

"Keep in mind that a cancer cell differs from a normal cell in only two ways: (1) it multiplies faster and (2) it hasn’t differentiated and become developed into the full mature cell that it is suppose to.

Controlled tests indicated estradiol raised the cell proliferation rate over 200%, progesterone with estradiol brought it back to normal. The ones with progesterone only, lowered the proliferation rate by 400%. The authors concluded that they had shown that estrogen is truly a stimulant of breast cancer and progesterone is a protector of breast cancer.

Therefore natural progesterone decreases the risk for several types of cancer, while unopposed estradiol causes these same types of cancer."

Now I realize new work is being done everyday so if you have some links to that show E1 is the major problem I would like to see it. I am here to learn also. I believe for women, the best choice is progestreone not added E2/E3 alone. You could also conclude that if E1 levels where 12x higher then E2 the risk would be about the same for cancer from either, but i think will not happen. Anyway i think we are off topic here.

Cheers

I absolutely agree that progesterone is the first line of defense against breast cancer. There is no doubt it needs to always accompany estrogen and any doctor that prescribes estrogen without progesterone is crazy in my opinion. But I'm a premenopausal women (who still has a uterus and I do supplement estrogen, progesterone and T).

I now have different ideas about 'estrogen dominance' as I chased solutions to that for several years.

I'm going to pm you some info and studies because I fear I'll be too long winded here and yes we have strayed a little off topic.

Thanks for the info you provided. Good stuff.

**rmacgurn** · 06-21-2010, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by forrest_and_trees

OK, so just to be certain, what I 'm hearing is the E2 test is what I need and E2 = the Estadiol test I mentioned above?

Secondly, and I realize this is a little of topic, however, rmacgurn do you have some reference-able urls for those articles? My mother is 74 and has some concerns about taking estrogen because of the risk of cancer, however I'm worried about her not due to osteoporosis and Alzheimer's. I'd like to print them out for her so she can read them and give them to her doctor to insure she's on the correct treatment. Thanks a ton!

Yes i will pm you with some links and maybe better for her is to pick up a book or two as it seems that many docs today are just are two busy to stay on top of the latest work, and many are against natural hormone replacement. just give me a day as i am slammed here with work of my own. IF you can't wait just do like i do and google it "cancers and estrogen" and "Hormone replacement therapy for women". it is a lot of reading but that is how i learned that and books...

**forrest_and_trees** · 06-22-2010, 09:24 AM

Excellent! I appreciate it. The articles would be helpful for now as I'm still trying to get her on board with the whole idea. I think a book might be a bit much at this point but I'm open to any and all info that you're willing to share.

Cheers!

**rmacgurn** · 06-22-2010, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by forrest_and_trees

Excellent! I appreciate it. The articles would be helpful for now as I'm still trying to get her on board with the whole idea. I think a book might be a bit much at this point but I'm open to any and all info that you're willing to share.

Cheers!

I want to give you good stuff but for now here are some quick ones. to really understand this field to make informed decisions it is best to grab a book and read, what else does she have to do at 70+. you also do not say what symptoms she has, you only say you are not worried about bone density and Alzheimers. so what are your concerns?

there is two ways to approach this conventional AMA/US govern thought heavily funded by drug companies that make non-human identical hormones and the alternate approach, that of the wellness natural hormone replacement therapy.

so first read the AMA stuff....like
http://www.uptodate.com/patients/con...P5t5_OQdHhEOKm or http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/hor...herapy/wo00046
or this for coronary and cardiovascular risk
http://www.annals.org/content/137/4/273.full

these all talk about hrt but most of these refer to synthetic hormones which we have know for years are bad...

then try these:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...3/ai_18549056/
or http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...rapy-women.htm
and this for heart issues:
http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/co...full/42/7/1238
lastly this is a source i often use and i have relied on them for years...
this is a list of articles on HRt natural and non..
http://search.lef.org/cgi-src-bin/Ms...hrt&hiword=hrt

I have also asked PPC to post up some references for you adn even some books as a women with a lot of experience i am sure she will contribute a lot of great info.... i am just swapped at work so for now i cannot help our much more but use google and read...

let us know your concerns about your mom also. cheers

**PPC** · 06-23-2010, 07:22 AM

Forrest, my mother who is turning 70 has been using BHRT for about a year now. She uses a bi-est cream, T cream and progesterone cream daily. Her energy is better, she's stronger, she actually has a libido (your Mom may have to be prepared for that if she uses T) and poeple constantly tell my Mother how great she is looking.

She was constantly afflicted with reoccuring colds and viruses. Now, I guess her immune system has strengthened with hormone use because she has not had a bad episode for the last eight months.

She started hormone therapy after breaking her shoulder and realizing she had bone loss.

A fantastic book on the subject that outlines well the safety of using bio identical hormones vs chemicalized hormones is 'The Natural Superwoman' by Dr Uzzi Reiss.

Reiss has been prescribing natural hormones to women for over two decades. He talks about how the WHI study in 2002 that scared women off hormones was simply a study of women on synthetic hormones. Somehow bio identical hormones have been grouped into the same boat by a media frenzy and it is a travesty that many Women are too scared to use them now.

Chemicalized hormones like provera and permarin are highly dangerous but bio identical hormones if used in a sensible manner ie; transdermal creams over oral preparations can promote better health in post menopausal women. Dr Reiss has another book called 'Natural Hormone Balance,' which is equally as good.

Another good book is Dr Johnathan Wright's latest one called, 'Stay Young and Sexy with Bio identical Hormones." He spends several chapters discussing the breast cancer issue and the best way to use hormones to avoid the disease.

Suzanne Somers has some good books too. 'Breakthrough' is her best in my opinion but 'The Sexy years' has a lot of good information also though some is a little outdated.

Hope some of this helps.

**forrest_and_trees** · 06-23-2010, 02:33 PM

Thanks so much to the both of you. I'll have to go through all this when I get a chance. As for my mother, while I agree a book would do her better, she is still a bit apprehensive about the whole idea. However, she as seen what HRT has done for me and I've told her what I've learned, so she's a bit more receptive. At this point I don't think I could get her to commit to the book which is why I like the idea of the articles. Get her warmed up to the idea and then provide more when she's on board. As far as free time, she is surprisingly active and always on the go which I'm happy for. I know they say one of the keys to staying young is staying active, so that much is good however, more an more I see her "over do it" and get run down. She doesn't bounce back quite as easily as she used to.

As for the Osteo and Alzheimer's, my grand mother [her mother] suffered with both but fortunately not to a great extent. My grandmother lost height and was hunched over all the time, I'm beginning to see the same in my mother. My mother is also beginning to do the "old lady shuffle" if you know what I mean. She doesn't stand up straight and walk with full strides anymore. She also complains a lot about her back bothering her but wont talk to the doctor about it. My mother is one of those people who tends to burry her head in the sand when it comes to bad news. So much so that she'd rather get worse than admit there's a problem. As for Alzheimer's, she's always been a bit scatter brained and had adult ADD however, it too is getting worse. We often talk and then the next day she completely forgets the conversation. She gets distracted *way* too easily and cant walk across the room to do something without getting side tracked along the way. The other day I saw her cooking and she took out a pair of scissors to cut open a package. Between the time she set the scissors down and opened the box to get the package, she turned back around to the drawer where she keeps the scissors looking for them. Then she got frustrated when she couldn't find them and walked off to the other room. I asked what she was doing and then explained, they're right in front of where you were standing. [6 inches away with a bright orange handle] she looked at me odd and I said "there" pointing at them. She stood looking straight at me asking, "Where?" I said, "mom, look where I'm pointing!" This seems to be happening more and more. I even think her hearing is going too. She often watches TV with the volume up loud or if we're watching TV together, she complains that she cant hear what's going on. She also says, "what" a lot when you address her however, I can't be certain if that is a hearing issue or she is off in her own world. I've also noticed I tend to startle her much more easily these days. So much so that I deliberately make noise as I approach her because it makes me uncomfortable when it happens. I've tried to explain to her that these things can be dealt with if approached early enough however, she would rather bury her head in the sand and begins to make excuses which is why I was surprised the other day when I told her about your posts and said I'd print the articles for her. She seemed open to the idea which was encouraging, so wish me luck.

**rmacgurn** · 06-23-2010, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by forrest_and_trees

Thanks so much to the both of you. I'll have to go through all this when I get a chance. As for my mother, while I agree a book would do her better, she is still a bit apprehensive about the whole idea. However, she as seen what HRT has done for me and I've told her what I've learned, so she's a bit more receptive. At this point I don't think I could get her to commit to the book which is why I like the idea of the articles. Get her warmed up to the idea and then provide more when she's on board. As far as free time, she is surprisingly active and always on the go which I'm happy for. I know they say one of the keys to staying young is staying active, so that much is good however, more an more I see her "over do it" and get run down. She doesn't bounce back quite as easily as she used to.

As for the Osteo and Alzheimer's, my grand mother [her mother] suffered with both but fortunately not to a great extent. My grandmother lost height and was hunched over all the time, I'm beginning to see the same in my mother. My mother is also beginning to do the "old lady shuffle" if you know what I mean. She doesn't stand up straight and walk with full strides anymore. She also complains a lot about her back bothering her but wont talk to the doctor about it. My mother is one of those people who tends to burry her head in the sand when it comes to bad news. So much so that she'd rather get worse than admit there's a problem. As for Alzheimer's, she's always been a bit scatter brained and had adult ADD however, it too is getting worse. We often talk and then the next day she completely forgets the conversation. She gets distracted *way* too easily and cant walk across the room to do something without getting side tracked along the way. The other day I saw her cooking and she took out a pair of scissors to cut open a package. Between the time she set the scissors down and opened the box to get the package, she turned back around to the drawer where she keeps the scissors looking for them. Then she got frustrated when she couldn't find them and walked off to the other room. I asked what she was doing and then explained, they're right in front of where you were standing. [6 inches away with a bright orange handle] she looked at me odd and I said "there" pointing at them. She stood looking straight at me asking, "Where?" I said, "mom, look where I'm pointing!" This seems to be happening more and more. I even think her hearing is going too. She often watches TV with the volume up loud or if we're watching TV together, she complains that she cant hear what's going on. She also says, "what" a lot when you address her however, I can't be certain if that is a hearing issue or she is off in her own world. I've also noticed I tend to startle her much more easily these days. So much so that I deliberately make noise as I approach her because it makes me uncomfortable when it happens. I've tried to explain to her that these things can be dealt with if approached early enough however, she would rather bury her head in the sand and begins to make excuses which is why I was surprised the other day when I told her about your posts and said I'd print the articles for her. She seemed open to the idea which was encouraging, so wish me luck.

Wow some of that describes me, especially the hearing issue and the "what" and i am still a few short of 60, but years of scuba did not help. PPC is right about the books they read much easier then scientific studies, and she can just jump into any chapter that interests her. You can always buy a few and just photocopy some pages to get her going...well i think you have some good advice here and does sound like she has some symptoms to address. good luck

**PPC** · 06-24-2010, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by forrest_and_trees

Thanks so much to the both of you. I'll have to go through all this when I get a chance. As for my mother, while I agree a book would do her better, she is still a bit apprehensive about the whole idea. However, she as seen what HRT has done for me and I've told her what I've learned, so she's a bit more receptive. At this point I don't think I could get her to commit to the book which is why I like the idea of the articles. Get her warmed up to the idea and then provide more when she's on board. As far as free time, she is surprisingly active and always on the go which I'm happy for. I know they say one of the keys to staying young is staying active, so that much is good however, more an more I see her "over do it" and get run down. She doesn't bounce back quite as easily as she used to.

As for the Osteo and Alzheimer's, my grand mother [her mother] suffered with both but fortunately not to a great extent. My grandmother lost height and was hunched over all the time, I'm beginning to see the same in my mother. My mother is also beginning to do the "old lady shuffle" if you know what I mean. She doesn't stand up straight and walk with full strides anymore. She also complains a lot about her back bothering her but wont talk to the doctor about it. My mother is one of those people who tends to burry her head in the sand when it comes to bad news. So much so that she'd rather get worse than admit there's a problem. As for Alzheimer's, she's always been a bit scatter brained and had adult ADD however, it too is getting worse. We often talk and then the next day she completely forgets the conversation. She gets distracted *way* too easily and cant walk across the room to do something without getting side tracked along the way. The other day I saw her cooking and she took out a pair of scissors to cut open a package. Between the time she set the scissors down and opened the box to get the package, she turned back around to the drawer where she keeps the scissors looking for them. Then she got frustrated when she couldn't find them and walked off to the other room. I asked what she was doing and then explained, they're right in front of where you were standing. [6 inches away with a bright orange handle] she looked at me odd and I said "there" pointing at them. She stood looking straight at me asking, "Where?" I said, "mom, look where I'm pointing!" This seems to be happening more and more. I even think her hearing is going too. She often watches TV with the volume up loud or if we're watching TV together, she complains that she cant hear what's going on. She also says, "what" a lot when you address her however, I can't be certain if that is a hearing issue or she is off in her own world. I've also noticed I tend to startle her much more easily these days. So much so that I deliberately make noise as I approach her because it makes me uncomfortable when it happens. I've tried to explain to her that these things can be dealt with if approached early enough however, she would rather bury her head in the sand and begins to make excuses which is why I was surprised the other day when I told her about your posts and said I'd print the articles for her. She seemed open to the idea which was encouraging, so wish me luck.

Estrogen keeps a woman's brain sharp. Dr Uzzi Reiss's website has many studies on the benefits of estrogen for the brain and other bodily functions.Your mother would do well if it were implemented in a safe protocol.

Galantamine is excellent as a preventative for alzheimer's. It is one of the best things to get rid of the amaloid plaque in the brain's blood vessels which is known to contribute to alzheimers.

Also, deprenyl can prevent brain deterioration. It raises dopamine, which is significantly lowered in elderly people so can make some positive differences in mood etc. There are so many studies on deprenyl available on the net. You could google them.

Deprenyl is not just for the elderly. Joseph Knoll it's creator, believes every person would benefit by taking 1mg a day from adult hood onwards. In it's generic form it is quite affordable. The life extension studies on it are interesting.

**forrest_and_trees** · 06-24-2010, 05:09 PM

Well I just got my test results back and there are a couple of note, mainly that at 200mg injections weekly, my total test is high. That and my Estradiol seems *really* high... Other than that, TSH, T4 free and Free T3 along with Lipids seem to be normal. Results are as follows:

Total Testosterone = 1132 [Normal is 275 -830]
Estradiol = 167 [Normal is 20-50]
TSH = .54 [Normal is .4-3.0]
T4 Free = 1.08 [Normal is .58 -1.64]
Free T3 = 3.4 [Normal is 2.3-4.2]
Lipid Panel = 179 [Below 200 is Normal]
HDL = 34 [Doc says it should be 40]
LDL = 121 [Below 130 is Normal]
TRI = 120 [150 and below is best]

The surprise for me was how high both my Test and especially my estrogen levels are. I've already asked the doc about Liquidex or Arimidex and he's going to look into them since he's not familiar with either and get back to me. Anyone else experience such high levels? What are the implications? As for my test levels, he's recommend that I lower my weekly dosage from 1ml @ 200mg per ml to .8ml.

Your opinions are welcome.

**PPC** · 06-24-2010, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by forrest_and_trees

Well I just got my test results back and there are a couple of note, mainly that at 200mg injections weekly, my total test is high. That and my Estradiol seems *really* high... Other than that, TSH, T4 free and Free T3 along with Lipids seem to be normal. Results are as follows:

Total Testosterone = 1132 [Normal is 275 -830]
Estradiol = 167 [Normal is 20-50]
TSH = .54 [Normal is .4-3.0]
T4 Free = 1.08 [Normal is .58 -1.64]
Free T3 = 3.4 [Normal is 2.3-4.2]
Lipid Panel = 179 [Below 200 is Normal]
HDL = 34 [Doc says it should be 40]
LDL = 121 [Below 130 is Normal]
TRI = 120 [150 and below is best]

The surprise for me was how high both my Test and especially my estrogen levels are. I've already asked the doc about Liquidex or Arimidex and he's going to look into them since he's not familiar with either and get back to me. Anyone else experience such high levels? What are the implications? As for my test levels, he's recommend that I lower my weekly dosage from 1ml @ 200mg per ml to .8ml.

Your opinions are welcome.

Wow, that E is high. I would be surprised if you were feeling great with that level even with your high T. You are now at the level of many women getting close to the peak of their cycle. Get hold of an AI (arimidex) as soon as possible. YOu could wait for your doc or just get one on your own. BUt don't go crazy with that. Some are over responders. But I'm guessing with your high E level you may need to do .5 mg eod then reduce.

Too high E in men causes low mood, brain fog, decreased erections and that is just the beginning.

**rmacgurn** · 06-24-2010, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by PPC

Wow, that E is high. I would be surprised if you were feeling great with that level even with your high T. You are now at the level of many women getting close to the peak of their cycle. Get hold of an AI (arimidex ) as soon as possible. YOu could wait for your doc or just get one on your own. BUt don't go crazy with that. Some are over responders. But I'm guessing with your high E level you may need to do .5 mg eod then reduce.

Too high E in men causes low mood, brain fog, decreased erections and that is just the beginning.

I would just add since you level is so high now you can also add some SERM like nolvadex since the AI will only reduce further conversion of test to E, but you have a lot of it floating around and if it binds to receptors in your breast tissue you can get gyno or at least sore nipples. taking a SERM will block that binding. This becomes more true if you drop your dose of T as the E will be proportionately higher. you can read more on this site but ask your doc also and watch for any symptoms...

good luck

**forrest_and_trees** · 06-24-2010, 09:19 PM

Thanks for the heads up. Actually I have already been taking an herbal based over the counter AI from Schwartz labs but at the recommendation of a few others on this site I began looking into Liquidex / Arimidex . And yes, I do still feel run down, issues with less than optimal erections, brain fog etc. I'd thought it might have been due to my Hypothyroidism as well but now I'm glad to know what's causing it. The funny thing is, just how I "some how knew" before this all started that I had low T, I also "some how knew" I had hight Estro as well. It's just comforting to know I'm not crazy and now I can begin to address it.