Need help getting off of TRT !!!

**nano77** · 10-16-2010, 08:29 PM

I have been a reader of this site for many years and have never needed to post anything because of the great knowage base and TONS of great info.
I have been working out for years and have done a few small cycles through out the years with good luck. So I do have experance with cycles and PCTs.
Here is the problem. I got addicted to pain killers a few years ago due to multple shoulder surgeys that were the result of working out. I got on a medication called Subxone to help with the withdraws from the painkillers. I was on this medication for 15 months. I noticed that while on these meds that sex drive went away and noticed muscle loss in the gym. I advised the dr and was told that the suboxone an opoid replacement suspresses test levels. They did some blood work and found that my total test levels where around 50ng/ml ? Pretty low for a 32 year old male. So they started me on andro gel which I used for about a year with limited succces. So then I realized that sex drive still low and impossible to gain mass in the gym. They recheck blood and found test was still below 100ng/ml. They then sent me to an endo dr who proceded to put me on at home injections of test cyp 200mg/ml every two weeks. Which i have been doing 1/2cc every week. From what i have read on hear this keeps test levels more stable This worked great for the last 5 months. I now have detoxed for the suboxone. Called endo and explaned situation and was instructed to just STOP the injectons, and let natual test levels come back on there own and see you later. Next apointment in JAN Thats it! I mean really. After being on TRT for 15 months...just stop!!! Ok I know enough form reading posts for years this is not the way to go. I need some kinda PCT. I might be able to get my primary care dr to help with the labs and maybe the pct chems. I have advised him of this problem and he told me to slowly start to take less test cyp every week, say 25mg/ml less each week and see how i feel. From what I have read on here this is not the best way to go. Should I ask him to give me HCG and Nolva and just stop the injections? Or does the slow titrate off of the injections sound good? I have worked many hard ass years in the gym to get what I got and dont want to lose it! I have also remained sober and done the right thing for some time now and need to get my Hormones stright. Please any suggestions whould be great. I have read a lot of posts and have a good idea of a pct but can't get my hands on any HCG unless my primary care dr helps or I find another endo that will help. it also been months since I have had any labs done. Monday I see my primary care dr again. I'm going to ask to get some labs for sure.

**streeter** · 10-16-2010, 09:21 PM

Dude I'm in know way a pro at giving advise I'm usually the one asking the questions myself but unless someone else answers your questions better than I can I think your best bet is to check out AR-R and get on some kinda PCT for sure seems like cold turkey is medieval punishment from ignorance.

**SlimmerMe** · 10-16-2010, 09:31 PM

Welcome!

**Bio-Active** · 10-16-2010, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by nano77

I have been a reader of this site for many years and have never needed to post anything because of the great knowage base and TONS of great info.
I have been working out for years and have done a few small cycles through out the years with good luck. So I do have experance with cycles and PCTs.
Here is the problem. I got addicted to pain killers a few years ago due to multple shoulder surgeys that were the result of working out. I got on a medication called Subxone to help with the withdraws from the painkillers. I was on this medication for 15 months. I noticed that while on these meds that sex drive went away and noticed muscle loss in the gym. I advised the dr and was told that the suboxone an opoid replacement suspresses test levels. They did some blood work and found that my total test levels where around 50ng/ml ? Pretty low for a 32 year old male. So they started me on andro gel which I used for about a year with limited succces. So then I realized that sex drive still low and impossible to gain mass in the gym. They recheck blood and found test was still below 100ng/ml. They then sent me to an endo dr who proceded to put me on at home injections of test cyp 200mg/ml every two weeks. Which i have been doing 1/2cc every week. From what i have read on hear this keeps test levels more stable This worked great for the last 5 months. I now have detoxed for the suboxone. Called endo and explaned situation and was instructed to just STOP the injectons, and let natual test levels come back on there own and see you later. Next apointment in JAN Thats it! I mean really. After being on TRT for 15 months...just stop!!! Ok I know enough form reading posts for years this is not the way to go. I need some kinda PCT. I might be able to get my primary care dr to help with the labs and maybe the pct chems. I have advised him of this problem and he told me to slowly start to take less test cyp every week, say 25mg/ml less each week and see how i feel. From what I have read on here this is not the best way to go. Should I ask him to give me HCG and Nolva and just stop the injections? Or does the slow titrate off of the injections sound good? I have worked many hard ass years in the gym to get what I got and dont want to lose it! I have also remained sober and done the right thing for some time now and need to get my Hormones stright. Please any suggestions whould be great. I have read a lot of posts and have a good idea of a pct but can't get my hands on any HCG unless my primary care dr helps or I find another endo that will help. it also been months since I have had any labs done. Monday I see my primary care dr again. I'm going to ask to get some labs for sure.

You are gonna need HCG !

**Vettester** · 10-16-2010, 11:38 PM

Here's the deal ... You have been taking exogenous testosterone for about a 1-1/2 years (If I read it correctly) between the Gel and Cyp. Your test production was shutdown really bad going into it, and it's been a 1-1/2 years of continued suppression on your HPTA. I would suspect your LH/FSH levels are down to nothing, or close to. Can your natty be restored??? Who knows for sure, but I don't like your odds due to the elapsed time and circumstance ... Just being realistic, but greater obstacles have been overcome.

So, is HCG the way to go?? By itself, NO. Presuming you have no primary testicular issues, it will stimulate the natural production you are talking about, but it will only last as long as you keep medicating with it. In essence, it will mimic the LH signal to your testicles, but the bio LH in the pituitary gland will still be non existent. A product like Clomid would be a better choice to get that working.

Prior to any of that, I'd make sure that there's no pituitary conditions (MRI) and primary testicular issues that would prevent your attempt, or possibly do any further harm. You may have already gone through these procedures, and if so can you let us know your results?

BTW ... Your doctor is having you slowly taper your injection dosages? All that will do is slowly lower your test serum level. It won't have any relevance on your natural levels. He wants to know how you will feel? Any experience would tell him that you will crash. I presume that's how he works people off of anti-depressants.

Good luck!

**Bio-Active** · 10-17-2010, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by vetteman08

Here's the deal ... You have been taking exogenous testosterone for about a 1-1/2 years (If I read it correctly) between the Gel and Cyp. Your test production was shutdown really bad going into it, and it's been a 1-1/2 years of continued suppression on your HPTA. I would suspect your LH/FSH levels are down to nothing, or close to. Can your natty be restored??? Who knows for sure, but I don't like your odds due to the elapsed time and circumstance ... Just being realistic, but greater obstacles have been overcome.

So, is HCG the way to go?? By itself, NO. Presuming you have no primary testicular issues, it will stimulate the natural production you are talking about, but it will only last as long as you keep medicating with it. In essence, it will mimic the LH signal to your testicles, but the bio LH in the pituitary gland will still be non existent. A product like Clomid would be a better choice to get that working.

Prior to any of that, I'd make sure that there's no pituitary conditions (MRI) and primary testicular issues that would prevent your attempt, or possibly do any further harm. You may have already gone through these procedures, and if so can you let us know your results?

BTW ... Your doctor is having you slowly taper your injection dosages? All that will do is slowly lower your test serum level. It won't have any relevance on your natural levels. He wants to know how you will feel? Any experience would tell him that you will crash. I presume that's how he works people off of anti-depressants.

Good luck!

I like everything Vette has to say here! His advice is always solid. The only compounds I would add to the mix is Tamox or Nolva with the clomid after you have stopped the HCG. You are going to a pretty high dose of HCG to get the boys up and running again so you may need Aromasin or Arimidex While using the HCG. Swifto has some great protocols for restoring the natural Test production for those that have been on for very long periods of time over in the PCT section! Best of luck JIM

**nano77** · 10-17-2010, 07:39 AM

Thanks man this info is just what I was looking for. I have never checked that there's no pituitary conditions or primary testicular issues. This also seems more serious than I first thought. I will talk to my primary care dr about this in the morning, but it sounds like I need a new endo dr if i ever am going to have a chance at getting the boys back to life.

It just blows my mind that a endo dr would just instruct me to just stop taking the exogenous testosterone . WTF! This Endo DR is suppost to be one of the best around also. He is booked out till April of next year.

This really has me worried at this point. I have two months left of refills of the cyp so I need to get moving on a solution. My primary care Dr is one of most caring docs that I have ever seen, so at this point i'm counting on him to get me going in the right dirrection. Even though it sounds like he dose not know much about hormones.

So, other than checking if there is not any preexisting conditions that would cause low t. What would you recommend? I'm going to try to get in and see a new endo dr, but even then it seems that complete stangers on a messaging borad care more and know more about me that my docters do. I probibily need to get some labs also? I sure hope that I don't have to do this myself, but if I do, it is nice to know that there are caring inteligent people out there to help. Thanks again!!!

**nano77** · 10-17-2010, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by jim230027

I like everything Vette has to say here! His advice is always solid. The only compounds I would add to the mix is Tamox or Nolva with the clomid after you have stopped the HCG. You are going to a pretty high dose of HCG to get the boys up and running again so you may need Aromasin or Arimidex While using the HCG. Swifto has some great protocols for restoring the natural Test production for those that have been on for very long periods of time over in the PCT section! Best of luck JIM

Swifto has some very good info. I really like the info on Naltrexone being used in place of HCG . Because of being a recent opiate addiact I already have Naltrexone. It blocks all opates from working therefore they give it to people addited to opiates. That make total sence. Thats what got me in this mess. Opiates lower the natural production of test and Naltrexone is a opiate antagonist....the complete opposite. That would only make sence that would rasie natural test levels.

posted by swifto

Naltrexone.

It has the ability to fool the Hypothalamus into continuing to secrete GnRH. This when signals the Pituitary to secrete LH/FSH and the Testes (Leydig cells), Testosterone . EVEN when using androgens!

I'm using it next cycle, in place of HCG as I've read some very intresting reviews on it, aswell as articles here and elsewhere.

You should use a dosage or around 5mg/wk, split up throughout. User's are experiencing NO testicular atrophy at all. This would mean GnRH is still being produced. This would mean PCT is a breaze. Some havent even needed a PCT. I'm not suggesting that, but there are some who havent needed a PCT.

You can also take Triptorelin Acetate which is GnRH agonist and will increase the amount of GnRH the body will produce. Helping futher with recovery. 100mcg/ED is the dosing protocol I have seen suggested. With the combination of Naltrexone/Triptorelin, one may be able to totally avoid HPTA shutdown.

One thing I will add is that, Naltrexone is not for everyone. It makes alot of people feel bad, so cannot be used. I have seen doses of 5-10mg/wk suggested and as much as 25-50mg/ED suggested, both by doctors. Naltrexone is a long active opoid antagonist given to heroin addicts. There is also no known clinical data on it maintaining GnRH when taking exogenous hormones (steroids ) at bodybuilding doses.

If Naltrexone isnt for you, HCG or HMG are very good alternatives and will maintain endogenous testosterone, even when taking exogenous hormones and prevent further testicular dysfunction. Some still argue this is better than Naltrexone.

**Times Roman** · 10-17-2010, 11:16 AM

I'm curious how long, or what is the longest anyone knows of, an individual using test, then having natty test levels come back? And how long a period does it take to return?

I'll say it a little better:
1) longest length of time using test and have natty test levels back to "normal" when stop?
2) after a lengthy cycle (trt or otherwise), how long does it take to return to "normal"? (months? years?)

**Bio-Active** · 10-17-2010, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

I'm curious how long, or what is the longest anyone knows of, an individual using test, then having natty test levels come back? And how long a period does it take to return?

I'll say it a little better:
1) longest length of time using test and have natty test levels back to "normal" when stop?
2) after a lengthy cycle (trt or otherwise), how long does it take to return to "normal"? (months? years?)

I have a friend that stayed on cycle for 5 years! He got in to trouble and went to jail and never used again. He is 44 now and he told me that it really wasn't that bad for him coming off! He must be one of the few lucky ones! he hasnt used any gear for over 5 years now.

**Times Roman** · 10-17-2010, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by jim230027

I have a friend that stayed on cycle for 5 years! He got in to trouble and went to jail and never used again. He is 44 now and he told me that it really wasn't that bad for him coming off! He must be one of the few lucky ones! he hasnt used any gear for over 5 years now.

I think my testicles just cramped!!! Hope he had some HCG or something, otherwise, his nuts are probably pretty shrunken?

**Vettester** · 10-17-2010, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by jim230027

I have a friend that stayed on cycle for 5 years! He got in to trouble and went to jail and never used again. He is 44 now and he told me that it really wasn't that bad for him coming off! He must be one of the few lucky ones! he hasnt used any gear for over 5 years now.

But what was his serum levels after coming off, and did his natural levels come up or did he just adapt to his new environement?

**Bio-Active** · 10-17-2010, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by vetteman08

But what was his serum levels after coming off, and did his natural levels come up or did he just adapt to his new environement?

I have no idea what his levels were before and after. He was a monster in the pictures i saw of him when he was on and now he is much lighter but still very muscular and lean. I don't think very many people can or ever should do this! as i stated before he must just be one of the lucky ones that was able to recover and have a normal life! He just had another child within the last year as well. For most of us TRT is a life saver!

**warchild** · 10-17-2010, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

I'm curious how long, or what is the longest anyone knows of, an individual using test, then having natty test levels come back? And how long a period does it take to return?

I'll say it a little better:
1) longest length of time using test and have natty test levels back to "normal" when stop?
2) after a lengthy cycle (trt or otherwise), how long does it take to return to "normal"? (months? years?)

i was on trt for over 2 yrs and stopped, took 2 moths to rebound after nolva/clomid pct

**zaggahamma** · 10-17-2010, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by warchild

i was on trt for over 2 yrs and stopped, took 2 moths to rebound after nolva/clomid pct

rebound to what capacity

**warchild** · 10-17-2010, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by jpkman

rebound to what capacity

havnt got bw done yet, but energy and strength level are there and my sex drive is up, very up. gonna get bw after mdrol pct

**zaggahamma** · 10-17-2010, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by warchild

havnt got bw done yet, but energy and strength level are there and my sex drive is up, very up. gonna get bw after mdrol pct

i see....u r talking current..i forgot how long u were gonna be off...maybe bloodwork will tell?

**warchild** · 10-18-2010, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by jpkman

i see....u r talking current..i forgot how long u were gonna be off...maybe bloodwork will tell?

hopefully off for good

**zaggahamma** · 10-19-2010, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by warchild

hopefully off for good

wow that good? nice...

how to you plan to proceed with goals....if plateau consider cycle?

**warchild** · 10-19-2010, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by jpkman

wow that good? nice...

how to you plan to proceed with goals....if plateau consider cycle?

oh yea ill do one cycle a year and ill still goto my trt doc and stock pile the test he prescibes me. im happy with the way i look so im not trying to get any bigger anymore